Must all Car Salesmen graduate from @%$hole school?

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by drz250

I have to agree with you that it's nice to have fixed prices sometimes. Over the years I have been using online auction companies more and more often. Sometimes you can get some great deals if the auctions start or end at a strange time or isn't well known about.

However sometimes it's nice to just buy things in person. If you are a good negotiator and the seller is pliable you can often get a reasonable price reduction. I have been on both ends of this pointy stick. When I was just out of school and started buying/selling cars and other property - I got swindled once or twice by people that used dirty tricks or just generally were more experienced traders.

I've come to learn that buying, selling and tinkering with things can be an obsession and almost an addiction. I remember when I was about 18 I sold a really good Ford Fairmont but really wanted to get it back. Somehow I managed to swing a deal that saw me losing almost nothing but I got burnt when I sold the car I had replaced the Fairmont with - the guy that bought it was simply a better negotiator and a big bloke. He scared me into thinking the car (a Toyota) wasn't worth much and I let him have it for $500 cheaper. It was stupid and I learned from that mistake. I never sell things for less than I want for them now.

If the person doesn't want to pay the amount you want, just politely say that you have to hold your ground on price. I think this is where some salespeople get it wrong because they make the prospective buyer seem like they are a cheap skate.

And that's the thing, I don't mind negotiating.
If the salesman wants to sit and talk for an hour, before giving me the best deal, I'm absolutely fine with that.
(It makes sense, if they simply handed out "best price" to the first one who asked, they wouldn't make much money.)
But there's no need to be prats about it.

[drz250]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

And that's the thing, I don't mind negotiating.
If the salesman wants to sit and talk for an hour, before giving me the best deal, I'm absolutely fine with that.
(It makes sense, if they simply handed out "best price" to the first one who asked, they wouldn't make much money.)
But there's no need to be prats about it.

Well yes I agree, I don't mind polite negotiations either. It is only when negotiations change note and you feel your arm getting twisted that I start hating negotiations.

I think it's best when the seller and prospective buyer can have civil discussions pointing out any issues with the vehicle (particularly when used). If the vehicle has no issues, any reasons why the price could be adjusted can be mentioned. At the end of discussions those issues can be raised and negotiated upon.

The worst case scenario is when a vehicle is simply shown to you, told that it is what it is and that the price is as listed. That is basically a total waste of time because a vehicle is only worth what somebody is prepared to pay for it. It really irritates me when a vehicle is advertised as "Negotiable/ONO" yet the seller isn't actually willing to negotiate.

This isn't really the case at new vehicle dealers because they have certain times of the year which re-inforce their willingness to sell for a reduced price (EOFYS, New model arriving, etc) but it is still worth noting. Some dealers still understand the importance of customer service and treating every customer as individual but some do not.

The problem with negotiating in the used market is that sometimes you do have to become the "bad guy" if you want to make a profit. Occasionally you will feel like you swindled someone if you are a good dealer.

I remember I bought near-new speakers for my car for less than 25% of the RRP. They are great speakers and should have cost $375 or $400 new but this young lad sold them to me for $100. That made me feel a bit guilty as I knew they were worth a lot more than that. You have to be willing to make these choices when you buy used. You can't be a nice guy and just give things away - you will only get burned.

Luckily when buying new you don't have so much of the "personal" connection to the money. You know that the salesman isn't going to necessarily be raked over coals if you beat him down a few thousand dollars. That is why it actually pays to be a more "attacking" style of negotiator when you are visiting dealerships. They know deep down that you can simply walk and go to another dealer if the negotiations sour, they know they will lose the sale so they are forced to bend their will a little bit more than they would if it was their own money on the table.

Of course, sometimes is it purely their own money on the table (usually with smaller operations). In that case you have to be mindful to be respectful otherwise you may find yourself in a tricky situation, it can be awkward when you offend a small-time operator by low-balling him on his vehicles.

The best bet is to go in with the price you want to pay. Take 10% off that price and give that offer to the dealer. Negotiations will only go up from there but pretend you only want to pay the 10% lower than what you really want to pay. That way he will feel great about the deal when you eventually accept 10% more (i.e. the price you actually wanted to pay from the start). It works every time.

Good luck and good motoring.

[Crazy Dazz]

Also, why do they try to insist that "spending limits" are all that matters? What business is it of theirs how much money I have?
I want THAT car, I want to offer you $X. Simple. If I offer you $50k for GT, and you say no, that's fine, but why on earth would you think that giving you the same $50k for a Daewoo would make me happy?

[Blue Shadow]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Also, why do they try to insist that "spending limits" are all that matters? What business is it of theirs how much money I have?
I want THAT car, I want to offer you $X. Simple. If I offer you $50k for GT, and you say no, that's fine, but why on earth would you think that giving you the same $50k for a Daewoo would make me happy?

If a customer offered $50k for a GT and the salesperson said no, alot of customers call them a rip off and want to kodge a complaint. If its a bad system its because customers and salespeople made it that way.

[Crazy Dazz]

So, after telling this guy (umpteen times) that we're looking for a near-new sedan, around the Elantra/ Cerato size, he very obligingly sends me a list of available cars, which includes:

1. EIGHT year old Golf
2. NINE year old Astra
3. 2010 Commodore
4. 2010 Falcon WAGON
5. 2010 Hilux
6. Outlander
7. XR6
8. Suzuki Seirra
9. and a Renault KANGO

[FPV+fteT3]

Going through this at the moment 9.30am advised the dealer I will arrange my lease for this car he says great no pressure how long? I replied a day or 2 at most just need it approved. Come 1.30 dealer rings are you ready to commit a deposit on that car? I like the no pressure lasted all of 4 hours.. easy fixed.. listen champ if you can sell it before I have my lease approved knock your self out here's a tip don't ring me again I will contact you when I'm ready no pressure.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

Going through this at the moment 9.30am advised the dealer I will arrange my lease for this car he says great no pressure how long? I replied a day or 2 at most just need it approved. Come 1.30 dealer rings are you ready to commit a deposit on that car? I like the no pressure lasted all of 4 hours.. easy fixed.. listen champ if you can sell it before I have my lease approved knock your self out here's a tip don't ring me again I will contact you when I'm ready no pressure.

Yeah, I remember when buying my GT, dealers business manager claimed he could get me a good finance deal, he couldn't. So I was waiting on the money coming through from an equity loan, and they kept ringing me up. Like somehow them pestering me was going to make the bank move faster.

[Crazy Dazz]

Have to say, I have found dealing with new car sales people much easier.

In particular, should you be in the market for a new Mitsubishi, I can recommend either Graeme Smith, or Holly Creemers. They are the new sales managers at Metro Mitsubishi and Paceways.

[Crazy Dazz]

This is more in the way of "dills" than holes, but the mentality of some sales people still leaves me gobsmacked.
Once we had decided that an appropriately priced Lancer was the way to go, I proceeded to start shopping around..
Now as a sales person, you should know your product, and know what you can sell it for.
If you're good, you should also know what your competitors are doing.
(So much so, that when one of the competing dealers above lost out, they immediately knew who their competition was.)

So when I say "I have been offered ABC for $X" you should know that I'm not BSing.
You should also be able to figure, that the other dealer will be desperate to get the signature to paper...
So why say that you can't match the offer (fair enough) THEN come back in 2 days time to see if I'm still interested???
Either I've already signed with the best offer, or I'm a time waster.

[fordomatic]

All these posts are the reason i have only bought one out of my 11 cars from a dealer. I buy all my cars private sale and i have never had an issue. I spend time when buying cars, usually looking for a couple of months. I found dealers cover up a lot of issue where as with a private sale on a newer vehicle (max 5 years old) most of the time what you see is what you get. You would also be surprised how much people with a private sale are willing to move.

The 2004 BA XR8 i bought from the dealer from the outside looked amazing back in 2007 (i was young). I thought i checked it out properly but many little things were wrong with it, front had been fully resprayed because of stone chips, had timing tensioner rattle they wouldn't do under warranty (3 months dealer), spare didn't exist on pickup but was there on inspection, cheap crappy $100 tyres. Things you don't get with most private sales. The dealer took me for a ride, i told him how much i had to spend not how much he wanted for it, he was a slimey old bugger. I sold it after two years and vowed never to buy from a dealer again. I learnt a lot from that car though and what to look for in a used car.

The last two cars i bought, FGXR6T (2 years old at time) and ZH Outlander the sellers just wanted it gone but the dealers wouldn't offer a trade in price that would pay their loans out. On both those cars i bought i got them for the loan payout figure, thousands cheaper than i insured them for. It's all about doing research and being patient. I've looked at some really bad cars and i walk away straight away if it's not what i want. Now i know exactly what i want and i can pretty much tell as soon as i say g'day and shake the owners hand if the car is going to be good or not.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by fordomatic

All these posts are the reason i have only bought one out of my 11 cars from a dealer. I buy all my cars private sale and i have never had an issue. I spend time when buying cars, usually looking for a couple of months. I found dealers cover up a lot of issue where as with a private sale on a newer vehicle (max 5 years old) most of the time what you see is what you get. You would also be surprised how much people with a private sale are willing to move.

The 2004 BA XR8 i bought from the dealer from the outside looked amazing back in 2007 (i was young). I thought i checked it out properly but many little things were wrong with it, front had been fully resprayed because of stone chips, had timing tensioner rattle they wouldn't do under warranty (3 months dealer), spare didn't exist on pickup but was there on inspection, cheap crappy $100 tyres. Things you don't get with most private sales. The dealer took me for a ride, i told him how much i had to spend not how much he wanted for it, he was a slimey old bugger. I sold it after two years and vowed never to buy from a dealer again. I learnt a lot from that car though and what to look for in a used car.

The last two cars i bought, FGXR6T (2 years old at time) and ZH Outlander the sellers just wanted it gone but the dealers wouldn't offer a trade in price that would pay their loans out. On both those cars i bought i got them for the loan payout figure, thousands cheaper than i insured them for. It's all about doing research and being patient. I've looked at some really bad cars and i walk away straight away if it's not what i want. Now i know exactly what i want and i can pretty much tell as soon as i say g'day and shake the owners hand if the car is going to be good or not.

Don't kid yourself, it can be a risk buying 2nd hand from dealer or private, 45 years of ownership has taught me this.

Cheers.

[XRtowcar]

My sister used to run a small Renault dealer and the reason that they treat people with no respect sometimes is the way they are treated numerous times a day.
Your one person out of a week full of people with attitudes that range from friendly to disgusting.
She was frequently asked by older males to get the male manager who they would deal with.
Was an all female sales team.
People shopping around for a deal represent an investment in time where there may not be any return, so I guess that's where they want to make sure your fair dinkum and not kicking tyres.
Not to mention the jet pilots who want to take the latest for an urban rally drive to test out the latest product.
Had a couple of guys where she stopped the test drive after couple of minutes and chauffeured them back to dealership.
Coupled with the ridiculous hours, no overtime payment, monthly sales targets and upper management pressure to sell, it's a bit of a tough gig.
Rewards were pretty good though when things were firing.
Other side of the coin was that buyers become a number and were only as good as the next car they bought.
She did have return customers that valued her service though.
My opinion though as I have dealt with the some shockers the minute you walk in a dealership trying to sell a used car to you that isn't remotely what you were looking for and then cracking it when you tell them so.
There are definitely some who could do with some customer service training.

[Blue Shadow]

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

My sister used to run a small Renault dealer and the reason that they treat people with no respect sometimes is the way they are treated numerous times a day.
Your one person out of a week full of people with attitudes that range from friendly to disgusting.
She was frequently asked by older males to get the male manager who they would deal with.
Was an all female sales team.
People shopping around for a deal represent an investment in time where there may not be any return, so I guess that's where they want to make sure your fair dinkum and not kicking tyres.
Not to mention the jet pilots who want to take the latest for an urban rally drive to test out the latest product.
Had a couple of guys where she stopped the test drive after couple of minutes and chauffeured them back to dealership.
Coupled with the ridiculous hours, no overtime payment, monthly sales targets and upper management pressure to sell, it's a bit of a tough gig.
Rewards were pretty good though when things were firing.
Other side of the coin was that buyers become a number and were only as good as the next car they bought.
She did have return customers that valued her service though.
My opinion though as I have dealt with the some shockers the minute you walk in a dealership trying to sell a used car to you that isn't remotely what you were looking for and then cracking it when you tell them so.
There are definitely some who could do with some customer service training.

Yep, a lot think that their 12 year old trade is worth nearly what the new car is and that you are "ripping them off"

[stoodoo]

Couple of months ago I was, by fate of a pretty bad oil leak (amongst other things), looking to buy a brand new FGX XR6 falcon ecolpi. I spoke to a few dealers around and was told by two of them that they each had one in stock. The first, had an aero blue in stock, which I didn't particularly like. So went for the option of the second dealer, who's salesman told me they had it in their holding yard. So I went up, signed a contract and paid $1000 deposit. A week and a half later when my money had come through, I phoned them up and asked them when could they have my car ready? The salesman bull****ted on about paperwork from my end not coming through, then told me he'd call me back the next day. I NEVER got a call back, so I called him. He then told me there was a problem, and that I'd have to wait 2 months to get the car. I said WTF, you told me it was in stock!!!!! I couldn't really wait 2 months, with the oil leak in my current car being as bad as it was.

I was told by a couple of dealerships in early April that ford were producing only 15 more XR6 ecolpi's in June and that was going to be it. Cracked it with the first dealership (can't handle being out and out lied to) and phoned around. Got onto the second dealership who told me they're getting a winter white XR6 in June and maybe swap it with a kinetic one that was supposedly getting sent to a dealership in NSW (kinetic was my preference). Also paid another $1000 deposit! Any how, called them maybe five or six weeks later to ask how are things progressing ( I had received an email from ford MoCo). To which they told me that they're still hoping to get the kinetic one in june (from NSW dealership), else they'll get me a winter white one in August!!!!! OMFG, after telling me they are all about integrity blah blah blah. I almost got to the point of not purchasing a Ford.

Anyhows, got home that night after being told another couple months wait, by chance I look on carsales.com, sure enough, there's a brand new XR6 ecolpi in kinetic listed. I put through my enquiry at 11:30 that night, got a call from the dealer the following morning, drove up to the dealership and actually sat in the car that had just come off the truck, and have been driving it now for around 5 weeks. But OMG the bulls#ite that I had been fed from the two dealers previous was enough to make me feel sick.

[Crazy Dazz]

Its weird the way the whole new car system works, but some of the dealers are still floggers.
Once we settled on a new Lancer, I set to work. I reckon I contacted a dozen dealers. Some literally did not even bother with a courtesy response. I guess they understood I was after the best price, knew that wouldn't be them, and so didn't even bother. Similarly, some made a perfunctory attempt to get my business, and bailed at the first sign of competition. How do these people do business?
Are their actually customers who walk into their local dealership, ask for a new car, and sign on the spot?

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Its weird the way the whole new car system works, but some of the dealers are still floggers.
Once we settled on a new Lancer, I set to work. I reckon I contacted a dozen dealers. Some literally did not even bother with a courtesy response. I guess they understood I was after the best price, knew that wouldn't be them, and so didn't even bother. Similarly, some made a perfunctory attempt to get my business, and bailed at the first sign of competition. How do these people do business?
Are their actually customers who walk into their local dealership, ask for a new car, and sign on the spot?

Yeah, but in their defence, how many emails would a dealer get per week demanding their "best and final offer", at least give em an idea of what you want to pay.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Its weird the way the whole new car system works, but some of the dealers are still floggers.
Once we settled on a new Lancer, I set to work. I reckon I contacted a dozen dealers. Some literally did not even bother with a courtesy response. I guess they understood I was after the best price, knew that wouldn't be them, and so didn't even bother. Similarly, some made a perfunctory attempt to get my business, and bailed at the first sign of competition. How do these people do business?
Are their actually customers who walk into their local dealership, ask for a new car, and sign on the spot?

Yes, there are! Funnily enough, we all have different ways in which we operate......

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Yeah, but in their defence, how many emails would a dealer get per week demanding their "best and final offer", at least give em an idea of what you want to pay.

In many ways emails make it far easier to shop around, but in the past you could use the phone to the same effect. If sales people feel that email magically holds them to a higher standard of honestly, well that's obviously a bonus.
At the end of the day, I had two dealers who were prepared to do a very good price. The difference at the end of the day came down to "free floor mats" (very nice ones too) and a more convenient location. But otherwise both dealers were prepared to cut their margins to the same extent.

I understand that different dealers have different strategies, and mid-month could have been in drastically different sales positions, etc, etc. Some were very helpful and pleasant, and simply bowed out when the competition got hot. But I'm still surprised at those who literally never responded.

It must in many ways be a frustrating profession. Knowing that most people you talk to won't buy a car from you.
Obviously much more rewarding if you had a crystal ball to see who the genuine purchasers would be, but otherwise if you don't at least engage how do you know?

What's even weirder, is that having done most of the hard work. We took a final trip to the local Wanneroo Mitsubishi. Just to have a final, detailed look over a new (CF) Lancer. Now whilst there, I was quite prepared to negotiate with them, and do a deal on the spot. (Already having worked Metro and Paceways down a great deal.)
I'd say we were there, in the yard, looking at new Lancers (they had a few), for 20~30 minutes. We sat in all the seats, checked out the radio, the windows, the boot, (I even looked under the bonnet to make sure there were no weird hard to fix things.) We looked at the different colours, and even took the time to check out the up-spec model.
Nothing. Not a salesman in sight.

[Sledge]

I've never had a good experience, always bought private....

[ronwest]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Have to say, I have found dealing with new car sales people much easier.

I bought a "new" Calais V (advertised as a demo with 10kms on it, lol) last week and today we bought a new Kuga Trend for my wife.

So, a Holden dealership and a Ford dealership.

The experience was much the same at both (although the coffee from the red team was a little nicer).

On both occasions we traded a car (5yo G6E and a 4yo Focus Trend) and didn't require finance for the difference.

On both occasions I knew what difference I was prepared to pay.

The Calais came in on target.

The Kuga was more difficult for the sales guy as they'd already eofy discounted quite heavily so we ended up stumping up another $1500 - he's throwing in a few bits and pieces to soften the blow

All in all, it was a no drama exercise. The sales people were courteous and professional. They could tell I was a serious buyer. They could also tell that my expectations were close to the money.

I'd say a win/win.

[Crazy Dazz]

There was a car advertised for "$14,990 with a $3k minimum trade." I offered $15k with no trade, and they literally would not even consider it. WTF?

[Anchor]

I didn't graduate from any school. Hope this helps.