FIRST PICS!!! VE & WM UNCOVERED!!!

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by blackahcdx

Also looks like Ford like the VY headlights enough, they put them on the BA :p

If the BA was released within weeks of the VY how could Ford have copied them. They had enough time to copy the BA for VE though. :

Even though it looks pretty average the sheep will still buy them, but I doubt they will sell anywhere the original Holden projections due to current fuel prices.

[Eaturbo]

dont think i like it, it looks kind of clumsy. the shape is out of proportion, not balanced. I think the shape of the front should have been more full. you take a look at an Audi or BMW or Merc, more rounded more full not as sharp as this. Probably will be alright in the flesh but with 1 Billion $$ I would have thought it would look better.

[blackahcdx]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

If the BA was released within weeks of the VY how could Ford have copied them. They had enough time to copy the BA for VE though. :

Even though it looks pretty average the sheep will still buy them, but I doubt they will sell anywhere the original Holden projections due to current fuel prices.

so VY was released, then BA, but holden copied the headlights they already had on the VY off the BA to put on the VE?

[BlueRaven]

What on earth makes anyone think that ford or holden don't know what the other cars look like? Of course they do. Would you build a car without knowing what the other people were doing?

[LeadFoot81]

Guys Ford and Holden and everyone else follow the same global design trends.
Each Falcon and Commodore for the last 20 years have been scarily similar in many aspects Even AU and VT were murky reflections of each other. Of course cars will look similar.
Ford were well and truly ahead of the game with the AU design, except for the soft doughy proportions.
I think releasing Orion a year after VE will mean it will have a much fresher look. Orion is Fords chance to shine- VE looks like VZ mk2. Not good enough in my book.

[marcosambrose]

Ill wait for some detailed shots before i make my judgement, but it seems a little conservative dont you think? look at the latest cars coming out... and the VE looks a little 2002 for me.

[chevypower]

yep looks like a big Astra, i cant believe people are saying how great it looks. Hate that Euro aerial too, makes it look like a tellytubby. The 300C has way more style to it. The Aurion, VE Commodore, WM Statesman.. I just want to yawn - i thought the BA was too conservative too when it first came out (especially compared to the AU), but the XR8 at least had a bit of style to it.

[FGX-351]

Originally Posted by Polyal

lowering and good rims can make any car look good....almost.

cough daewoo matiz cough:P

[McobraR]

Originally Posted by T3ts50

The BA cost about $500 mill, I think the AU was $1 Billion

The AU actually cost about 700mil. And when considering that the BA cost 500mil to improve a 700mil dollar project, it was pretty obvious that the BA was gonna be good and had to succeed.
What i want to kno is how much will the Orion project cost? With Ford US losing heaps of money, its kinda hard to say that it'll be close to holdens 1billion. Rumours tho are saying the Orion is an evolution of the BA/BF, which i dont think is a real good thing, if its a new model, u expect it to be all new.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by au3 chaser

SlickHolden, that one of the best things I have heard you say - lol.

I'm an AU owner, and no where near disgrunteled, although I do feel sorry for those that don't have a good taste in design. Even the Merc-B CLS is just about a rear cut of an AU ....
Although I want to distance myself as much from the AU1 forte "Whale Mouth" grill..... uggghhh

I did think the merc had a AU rear when i seen it.
But i did say you were happy with your cars it's the jokes that pee AU owners off.
I have had the jokes, The old VB was rusted and many of the jokes were it's holding the car together, I loved the car but it got to a point of enough is enough it's not funny anymore we moved on, Some aren't satisfied with your happy with it's it's a great car no matter what they think, I took pleasure in passing new cars broken down

Originally Posted by HSE2

A lesson in how not to release a car. While a drip feed ****es me off no end not controlling 980 million worth of development is suicidal. As soon as Holden were ready top run these cars on the road they should have released official pictures instead of this abortion of a set up.


While the article makes mention of Ford being concerned and rightly so given the gap between Ford's new car, these photos would be the ones Ford would wish released.

Uninspired and proportionally challenged. Already the interior design smacks of me too and yesterday’s news but these new exterior shots are a huge disappointment. What were they thinking with the short rear end!!!

But do you also remember they said the same with the VY SS first spy shots released on the ford Forums? Same thing holden said they are bad pic's it was looked at bad as they were unflattering pictures of the VY's some comments were it's Holden's AU. 4 years down the track the only thing stopping it is old age and high fuel prices that every is suffering with now.

Originally Posted by JEM

Thanks for the advise Vino but i am totally aware that the car will look better in the flesh (well it won't look as ugly anyway)...

My point however is that with the amount of hype surrounding "Australia's most important car"... it just didn't live up to it in my mind.

I can make that judgement by seeing the styling themes in these totally unmasked photos. The styling is nothing new and uninspiring imo. I know my statements may grate potential future owners of this car, but that's life, we don't all have to agree.

Everyone has there own taste. But you know nothing more then we do about the car. How it succeeds or fails will only know in release time, Not now.

Originally Posted by Inline6

Guys Ford and Holden and everyone else follow the same global design trends.
Each Falcon and Commodore for the last 20 years have been scarily similar in many aspects Even AU and VT were murky reflections of each other. Of course cars will look similar.
Ford were well and truly ahead of the game with the AU design, except for the soft doughy proportions.
I think releasing Orion a year after VE will mean it will have a much fresher look. Orion is Fords chance to shine- VE looks like VZ mk2. Not good enough in my book.

Alot of people say that it's a VZ, But no-one backs it up?.
By the time orion is ready the VE will be in full swing this is just the beginning. Utes and waggons will be gone by Orion or just after. This car is more flexible then the VT.

[Fordoldie]

What a laugh reading some of the crap coming out! I've never seen so many one-eyed comments.
I still havent seen a pic of the new Holden in undisguised form that isnt distorted - be it on purpose or otherwise. The Statesman pic has a shrunken rear and the white SS has a shrunken front making them both look out of proportion. However if these were the new Ford models in the spy pics I bet there would be a lot more positive comments.
From what we have seen so far I think the majority are right. It is going to be a mighty looking machine regardless and the biased critisism is based on fear rather than fact. Ford will have a long wait for their new model once VE arrives and those who mocked the VE will realise that a lot of what they see in the new Holden, they will see in the Orion and other Fords later. There will always be a similarity between the 2 brands' Hero cars with each one adding an advantage here or there.

[XR Van]

Originally Posted by McobraR

The AU actually cost about 700mil. And when considering that the BA cost 500mil to improve a 700mil dollar project, it was pretty obvious that the BA was gonna be good and had to succeed.
What i want to kno is how much will the Orion project cost? With Ford US losing heaps of money, its kinda hard to say that it'll be close to holdens 1billion. Rumours tho are saying the Orion is an evolution of the BA/BF, which i dont think is a real good thing, if its a new model, u expect it to be all new.

the orion is a new car chassis and body.
inside word from fpv

[TheSneakiness]

Still reserving judgment until I see it with my own eyes.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by XR Van

the orion is a new car chassis and body.
inside word from fpv

Chassis is not all new. Body yes.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

Everyone has there own taste. But you know nothing more then we do about the car. How it succeeds or fails will only know in release time, Not now.

Where did i say it would fail? I have never questioned its ability to be a successful model. It may well be.

If you like the car Slick... buy it. Simple as that.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

What a laugh reading some of the crap coming out! I've never seen so many one-eyed comments.
I still havent seen a pic of the new Holden in undisguised form that isnt distorted - be it on purpose or otherwise. The Statesman pic has a shrunken rear and the white SS has a shrunken front making them both look out of proportion. However if these were the new Ford models in the spy pics I bet there would be a lot more positive comments.
From what we have seen so far I think the majority are right. It is going to be a mighty looking machine regardless and the biased critisism is based on fear rather than fact. Ford will have a long wait for their new model once VE arrives and those who mocked the VE will realise that a lot of what they see in the new Holden, they will see in the Orion and other Fords later. There will always be a similarity between the 2 brands' Hero cars with each one adding an advantage here or there.

The only undisguised pics to comment on are the ones from carpoint, there for we can all comment on them as we like. No use saying it's the photographer's fault if the car is looking cr@p. Until official pics are released and the cars are on the road in full view, then we can re-assess our judgement. Until then, based on these pics, the car is a disappointment.

[McobraR]

Originally Posted by XR Van

the orion is a new car chassis and body. inside word from fpv

Originally Posted by JEM

Chassis is not all new. Body yes.

Had a weird feeling, i remember someone saying the Orion will carry over the control blade IRS. I'm assuming thats wat ur saying JEM. In the end, i'l just wait :

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by JEM

The only undisguised pics to comment on are the ones from carpoint, there for we can all comment on them as we like. No use saying it's the photographer's fault if the car is looking cr@p. Until official pics are released and the cars are on the road in full view, then we can re-assess our judgement. Until then, based on these pics, the car is a disappointment.

I rest my case.
You my friend, are a classic example of someone who has made his mind up already. Its written all through your previous posts. Nothin wrong with that. Anyone can comment, you are right. BTW what changes were you expecting if what you see is "uninspiring" ???? Maybe you better advise the guys who are designing the next true blue.... :

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

I rest my case.
You my friend, are a classic example of someone who has made his mind up already. Its written all through your previous posts. Nothin wrong with that. Anyone can comment, you are right. BTW what changes were you expecting if what you see is "uninspiring" ???? Maybe you better advise the guys who are designing the next true blue.... :

I think what Jem is getting at is the FACT the the VE, from those pics, which are just about all angles mind you, is just another example of Holdens lack of balls when designing.

The car is going to look dated from the start, its hardly a step forward (just talking exterior design here) from the VZ.

we dont expect them to re-create the wheel, but a little bit of progress would be nice.

I have a strong suspession (sp?) that Jem has seen a sneak peak of Orion, as a few people on the boards have, and its a much more positive move from a design point of view than what we have seen so far.

People are saying that the "official" pics are going to make it look better, but if the basic lines are not there, or are old, then that is a bit dissapointing. Anyone can put a bodykit on and tart something up for the press.

[WASP]

I like it truth be known, very safe, but some nice styling features none the less. This is arguably to some degree why the BA make over was so popular. Sometimes less is more as they say in the design industry. Having said all this anyone that has seen it here will know that once the all new Falcon comes out it will instantly date the VE by the looks of it. Despite this I imagine your local Joe blogs average will still prefer the VE as a safer option.

Good effort Holden, wish you all the best. I look forward to driving one to see what all the fuss is about.

[paulvdb]

Even though I'm a Ford owner at the moment, I have in the past been a Holden owner as well (VL Commodore) and can't really understand some of the silly comments in this thread. Both the Commodore and Falcon are basic family cars that need to appeal to as many people as possible and date well for 3-9 years. That means that neither design is going to have anything radical or massively different to what you've seen in the past - Hence the reason the new Camry and Aurion aren't all that wierd either. Radical car buyers can buy something from a radical car supplier but generally that's only going to be 1-5% of the buying public. GM isn't going to release a way-out car that 1-5% of the public think looks fantastic, nor will Ford.

Generally people like plain unconfronting cars. The only reason the 380 isn't selling well is that it had a dodgy reputation even before it was released and now has just as horrible resale as the Magna. The Camry and Corolla is proof that Australians are quite happy buying boring cars. All we need to do is convince these same people that the Commodore and Falcon are just as efficient as a Camry, much roomier and just as reliable, and then the GM/Ford product will sell again.

Mitsu only need to do a buy one-get one free and they'll be on the map again (until resale time) :-)

[buddyforu]

Very amusing comments.

Holden 'lacks balls' in design?? Ummm are you kidding?? VT? VY? Torana TT36? SSX? Effijy?

Hmmm Ford? Besides the AU (flop) and Territory (brilliant)?.........*listens to crickets chirping*

If Holden didn't create a clear link to past Commodores, it would alienate customers. Just like Ford did when going from the EL to the AU. A mistake mind you, that Ford still has not recovered from, from a sales point of view for the last 8 years. The jokes about the AU (series 1) are justifieable. Even now it looks like someone did and awkward turd.

So I can fully understand why Holden would choose to stick to the 'conservitive' route when designing the most significant car in Australian automotive history, and lets not beat around the bush, thats exactly what the VE/WM is considering it is going to be the closest thing to a global car that Holden has ever produced (China, Korea, South America, UAE etc and possibly the USA in some form).

I wouldn't be so stupid to dismiss the VE/WM on looks alone. It will be a quantum leap forward for an Australian made car, and instantly date the Falcon and 380 in many respects, such as build quality, refinement, and ride qualities.

The BFII (or probably BG on VE's launch) will continue to slide in sales until the Orion arrives next year, and will probably settle in 3rd spot behind the Corolla until then.

I'm betting the Orion will be just as big a step forward for the Blue oval, but I bet Ford Aust will never be as 'adveturous' in its design as they were with the AU. It just doesn't work in our market.

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by paulvdb

Even though I'm a Ford owner at the moment, I have in the past been a Holden owner as well (VL Commodore) and can't really understand some of the silly comments in this thread. Both the Commodore and Falcon are basic family cars that need to appeal to as many people as possible and date well for 3-9 years. That means that neither design is going to have anything radical or massively different to what you've seen in the past - Hence the reason the new Camry and Aurion aren't all that wierd either. Radical car buyers can buy something from a radical car supplier but generally that's only going to be 1-5% of the buying public. GM isn't going to release a way-out car that 1-5% of the public think looks fantastic, nor will Ford.
Generally people like plain unconfronting cars. The only reason the 380 isn't selling well is that it had a dodgy reputation even before it was released and now has just as horrible resale as the Magna. The Camry and Corolla is proof that Australians are quite happy buying boring cars. All we need to do is convince these same people that the Commodore and Falcon are just as efficient as a Camry, much roomier and just as reliable, and then the GM/Ford product will sell again.

Mitsu only need to do a buy one-get one free and they'll be on the map again (until resale time) :-)

Exactly right! Some sense spoken at last. Look what happened the last time Ford tried to move outside the square (so to speak) with Taurus : and yes the AU - which was designed to co-habit with Taurus. And here we have Ford fans picking the S..t out of what looks to be an improvement on what has already been kicking their asses :lookedat:
Workitout! What is also worrying is that when we release Orion, Holden will be ready to unleash their REAL VE with more swept back looks of the Torana (albeit updated) that everyone raved about. Too early to be judging those that have been leading the way so far I think

[XRated]

Whilst I'm not giving a definite opinion on the design myself from those mediocre photos, I think a lot of you need to get over others giving their opinion on what they gather from some lousy photographs. It's early to judge, and if someone else's subjective opinion annoys you; deal with it!!

Most people are expecting a radical new design for a large scale production car. It's safe to assume that if a car aimed at a broad consumer market is changed to the extreme, consumers are going to be afraid of the change and will either, not warm to it, or take a very long time.

GM/Holden is playing it smart: stick with a tried and tested (general) design that the public keep buying. It's going to be much more modern than the VZ anyway. They don't need to have a ground-breaking original design to make money.

It's already been mentioned about the AU being a flop when it was released. Personally I'm one of those said freaks that prefer the (series II/III) AU design to the bland and boring BA design (aside from FPV models).

[blutura]

Originally Posted by buddyforu

Very amusing comments.

Holden 'lacks balls' in design?? Ummm are you kidding?? VT? VY? Torana TT36? SSX? Effijy?

Hmmm Ford? Besides the AU (flop) and Territory (brilliant)?.........*listens to crickets chirping*

LOL, I don't even know where to start on this comment. LOL

the VT was a slightly modified version of the Opel Omega B, which was released in Europe in 1993 - 4 years prior to the VT being released here.

Opel Omega B


Opel Omega B Wagon


Incidentally, pretty much every commodore has been only a slightly modified version of the Omega, so I would hardly call the VT or any other commodore a 'ballsy' design.

Likewise, I wouldn't call the SSX or Effijy ballsy designs either. Both were purely showcars designed to distract Joe Public from the BA range which was commanding a lot more attention than the VY range at the various motorshows.

I also would not call the Territory a ballsy design AT ALL. Its a very safe design. After creating something truely fresh and forward thinking in the AU, only to have it outsold by the very safe VT, Ford wasn't going to take any chances with the design of their next big thing.

Finally, I don't understand why people continually call the AU a flop. It consistently sold between 4500 and 5500 a month (which is more than the BF and VZ are selling at the moment) over its 4 year life, introduced a number of firsts in Australian built cars including standard CD player and front power windows on base models and 16" wheels on base models and provided a fantastic base on which the BA was built. It was NOT a flop. Less successful than hoped, yes, but definitely not a flop.

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

What is also worrying is that when we release Orion, Holden will be ready to unleash their REAL VE with more swept back looks of the Torana (albeit updated) that everyone raved about.

What on earth makes you think that Holden are going to go to all the trouble and expense of pressing panels for the VE, only to throw them away and press a batch of new ones in 2 years time? Panel stamping is damn expensive!

[MethodX]

So what if Holden did use the Omega B?
Both companies are multinationals and use resources from around the world.

Ford didnt have a suitable rwd platform to modify or they would have done it too.

[turboute]

I reakon holden dropped something on the bonnet and it squished and they thought - that looks a bit different - lets use that...

Honestly the front end is too steep - the drop at the front of the bonnet looks silly. I fthey did anything to fix it it might end up looking like a R34 or an audi. Also the corners seem a bit too pronounced - they are very sharp for a modern car.

I dont mind the rest of it - the rear wheel arches do look like they were lifted off the camry though. There is a sedan getting released in the US that will have the Corvette engine in it - looks a bit like that

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by blutura

LOL, I don't even know where to start on this comment. LOL

the VT was a slightly modified version of the Opel Omega B, which was released in Europe in 1993 - 4 years prior to the VT being released here.

Incidentally, pretty much every commodore has been only a slightly modified version of the Omega, so I would hardly call the VT or any other commodore a 'ballsy' design.

Likewise, I wouldn't call the SSX or Effijy ballsy designs either. Both were purely showcars designed to distract Joe Public from the BA range which was commanding a lot more attention than the VY range at the various motorshows.

I also would not call the Territory a ballsy design AT ALL. Its a very safe design. After creating something truely fresh and forward thinking in the AU, only to have it outsold by the very safe VT, Ford wasn't going to take any chances with the design of their next big thing.

Finally, I don't understand why people continually call the AU a flop. It consistently sold between 4500 and 5500 a month (which is more than the BF and VZ are selling at the moment) over its 4 year life, introduced a number of firsts in Australian built cars including standard CD player and front power windows on base models and 16" wheels on base models and provided a fantastic base on which the BA was built. It was NOT a flop. Less successful than hoped, yes, but definitely not a flop.



What on earth makes you think that Holden are going to go to all the trouble and expense of pressing panels for the VE, only to throw them away and press a batch of new ones in 2 years time? Panel stamping is damn expensive!

here, here,

It is for this reason that I have the most interest in VE. It will be the first Australian designed platform for the Commodore rather then an Opel donar. Also the first Australian designed exterior for the Commy rather then modyfying an Opel design. Holden had to engineer most of it themselves and this puts them on the same footing as Ford (finally) in this respect. Ford still does it's own engine work whereas Holden has used the GM powertain V6 product and assembled them in Melbourne. Aside from my personal Ford support I still think Ford has the greater engineering ability with a huge boost to come now while Holden has the superior marketing. Ford thinks "build the better car and it will sell itself" Holden knows you need to "market spin it to buggery and the deficiencies will be glossed over", eg inferior A4, inferior IRS, early Gen III troubles, 19 recalls for the VT....

[CAMS290]

I happened to be working at the Holden Lang Lang proving ground today, and saw first hand several new VE's running around the high speed bowl, i also saw up close a "Chev Lumina SS Sedan" un camouflaged in a nice metallic blue. Looks like it had 19" wheels and it had quad pipes out the back.

They are a very nice looking car indeed, well proportioned and sooo much better in the flesh, looks may be decieving but i think they look bigger.

Another funny thing is all the test "mules" running around there, i wonder what they do when they are finished ???

Another interesting thing was the large 4wd Daewoo thing that they had all taped up ready for the crash test. It was infront of a building that had a huge winch out the back in a seperate shed, i assume it is going to be the Terri competitor ?

[blackahcdx]

Cams290 the car you saw was probably the new CAPTIVA

And the VT wasn't a "SLIGHTLY MODIFIED OMEGA B". infact it didn't share a single panel.

If something was "slightly modified" i would expect it to share the majority of parts/panels eg Holden Nova/Toyota Corolla