Advanced Driving "P" Plate

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I have done roughly 50,000kms in 5-6 years driving. In that time I have experienced a variable amount of traffic conditions.

I have driven through flooded causeways, driven through roads covered with sheep and cattle, hit roos, driven in blinding rain, driven in hail, driven through bushfires, driven through rather unsafe and demanding roads, etc etc.

That is why I said "would" ;) Future tense.

Mitchay DOB November 10, 1986
Todays date January 27, 2007.
You are 20 years, 2 months and 17 days old.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well here are some facts:
Ever since the VE commodore won COTY the price of bananas is Woollworths has been less than $2/kg.

Oh something more automotive:

There were no road deaths in NT last Christmas until the 130km/h speed limit was introduced.

Or something closer to the topic:

The last road death involving a QLD registered vehicle with P plates was in 1976.

Do you need any other stupid, useless but totally accurate facts?

Another thing you will learns as you get older is that government stats are ALWAYS massaged to fit into their agenda.
The vast majority of people killed with guns in Australia in the 20th century were with single shot, what are now "cat A" firearms. They are not banned, semi autos are..........

And that is a FACT.....

These Stats are no more "Useless" than the Personal opinions that keep getting thrown around this topic.

As you pointed out governments "massage" Statistics to play with and Manipulate the Publics opinion, and the Media is the one who is sent in to brain wash us with shows like ACA & TT and all the other Bias news stories we get fed (Not just talking cars & licences here ladies and gents)

Out of interist do you watch the above mentioned shows 4V man :

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by flappist

Mitchay DOB November 10, 1986
Todays date January 27, 2007.
You are 20 years, 2 months and 17 days old.

Yeah it was a rough estimate. I got my Ls at 15yrs and 9 months.

Give me a break I'm ****ed as :

[flappist]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

These Stats are no more "Useless" than the Personal opinions that keep getting thrown around this topic.

As you pointed out governments "massage" Statistics to play with and Manipulate the Publics opinion, and the Media is the one who is sent in to brain wash us with shows like ACA & TT and all the other Bias news stories we get fed (Not just talking cars & licences here ladies and gents)

Out of interist do you watch the above mentioned shows 4V man :

But they are accurate and they could be used to support an arguement. The BIG picture is what is need here not a microcosm.

I am starting to get bored with this.

There is no way that either of you will accept that you are not above average extra safe drivers even though your combined driving experience is less than I have on my 2005 F6 or had on my 2003 GT-P.
I know my driving limits, I play on tracks quite often and have driven with people who are VERY good drivers so I have no illusions to the extent of my ability. I am 47 years old and have done over 1,000,000km and I am still alive. See if you can say that one day.

[MITCHAY]

Well FPV8U. You and I face a uphill battle :

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by flappist

But they are accurate and they could be used to support an arguement. The BIG picture is what is need here not a microcosm

So where do we find the facts on the Big Picture Flappist, don't think for one minute i don't want to see that 18-21 road toll drop.

Every time those moron's we talked about earlier comes onto the news i think of how it could have been a mate of mine, i have had discussions about it with all of my mates and we ourselves cannot think of ways of helping people unless they are willing to help themselves.

But useless and un effective laws do not save lives and thats the target right?

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Well FPV8U. You and I face a uphill battle :

in for the long haul buddy.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

So where do we find the facts on the Big Picture Flappist, don't think for one minute i don't want to see that 18-21 road toll drop.

Every time those moron's we talked about earlier comes onto the news i think of how it could have been a mate of mine, i have had discussions about it with all of my mates and we ourselves cannot think of ways of helping people unless they are willing to help themselves.

But useless and un effective laws do not save lives and thats the target right?

You won't find the facts because the government is very successfull as it is playing on people's emotions.

Originally Posted by FPV8U

in for the long haul buddy.

A long one at that! Rock on!

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

You won't find the facts because the government is very successfull as it is playing on people's emotions.

Bingo, and sadly some peoples opinions are Formed by shows like ACA and TT, including my step father, frustrating to say the least...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

So where do we find the facts on the Big Picture Flappist, don't think for one minute i don't want to see that 18-21 road toll drop.

Ok, things that have actually happened and their results.

1960s: Horrible accidents many hurt even in minor prangs. Media screams. Seat belts made mandatory. Reduction in injuries. Belts remain.

1971: Media scream about high powered cars (GTHOs etc). They were banned. No difference to road toll.

After a few years it was determined that the high powered cars were not a problem per se and the lack of complementary safety technology was a greater issue and misuse was also a culprit.
Rural speed limits were introduced. (Yes that is right, there were no limits in NSW then).
Now they are not banned outright.

1980s: Media screams about new players on high powered motor bikes. Limits placed. Road toll drops. Limits remain.

1980s: Horrific accidents due to front number plate on bikes. Media screams. Number plates removed and headlight mandatory. Injuries drop and despite the whinging from the "flash for cash" zealots this remains.

1990s: Too many drunk people driving. Media screams. Random breath testing introduced. Reduce toll. RBT remains.

Some things work, others do not but they have to be tried.

If by limiting P platers the road toll actually drops then it will remain, if not then it will be forgotten in a few years.....

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ok, things that have actually happened and their results.

1960s: Horrible accidents many hurt even in minor prangs. Media screams. Seat belts made mandatory. Reduction in injuries. Belts remain.

1971: Media scream about high powered cars (GTHOs etc). They were banned. No difference to road toll.

After a few years it was determined that the high powered cars were not a problem per se and the lack of complementary safety technology was a greater issue and misuse was also a culprit.
Rural speed limits were introduced. (Yes that is right, there were no limits in NSW then).
Now they are not banned outright.

1980s: Media screams about new players on high powered motor bikes. Limits placed. Road toll drops. Limits remain.

1980s: Horrific accidents due to front number plate on bikes. Media screams. Number plates removed and headlight mandatory. Injuries drop and despite the whinging from the "flash for cash" zealots this remains.

1990s: Too many drunk people driving. Media screams. Random breath testing introduced. Reduce toll. RBT remains.

Some things work, others do not but they have to be tried.

If by limiting P platers the road toll actually drops then it will remain, if not then it will be forgotten in a few years.....

As i have said im not against anything that works, and if it is working then thats great, but personally i cannot see results when the road toll is going up, hopefully it will "Vanish" in coming years.

although Victoria is about to go onto evan harder restrictions :togo:

Thanks for the Info Flappist.

[Cosmo Kramer]

Flappist and 4vman - How are your heads this morning? Hope you didn't damage them too much hitting them against that brick wall.

FPV8U and Mitchay - Do yourselves a favour. Print this thread out, file it for about 15 years and then re-read it. See if you agree with your opinions then. I'm betting with the benefit of age, experience and hindsight you won't. (this is not mean't to be an insult, just an observation)

[poolkeeper]

P Platers = discrimination

Some ask why us p platers want/need a high hp car?
Why do full licensed drivers want/need one??

[holmsy]

without having read most of the thread i am on my P's and i would love to do an advanced driving course even when i dont drive a high powered vehicle.
i also have the brains to know that if i spin the wheels in a stock BA xr6 just taking off i dont need a v8 that will just loose grip way to easy.

[poolkeeper]

Originally Posted by holmsy

without having read most of the thread i am on my P's and i would love to do an advanced driving course even when i dont drive a high powered vehicle.
i also have the brains to know that if i spin the wheels in a stock BA xr6 just taking off i dont need a v8 that will just loose grip way to easy.

sounds like you havent been in a high hp car?

[holmsy]

not much more why?
it is more during the rain when i find no matter what i do i cant take off without the wheels spinning and thats in a stock 6

[poolkeeper]

Originally Posted by holmsy

not much more why?
it is more during the rain when i find no matter what i do i cant take off without the wheels spinning and thats in a stock 6

No reason really. Just that its part of owning a high hp car, trying to get a good launch, acceleration. Finding the balance, I should say.

lol, my car when I floor it in the rain, wont wheelspin just launch hard : Slight brake will change that though :

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by holmsy

not much more why?
it is more during the rain when i find no matter what i do i cant take off without the wheels spinning and thats in a stock 6

Either your running cheese cutters on the back, or you really should stick to an auto.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by holmsy

not much more why?
it is more during the rain when i find no matter what i do i cant take off without the wheels spinning and thats in a stock 6

Mate i can drive my car in heavy rain and i don't have Wheelspin issues, either go easy on the accelerator or get some decent rear tires!

[One Drone]

Firstly we shouldn't be calling them advanced driving courses as that isn't what they are. I have done a few whilst on my Ps and each time the instructors made sure that what we were doing were DEFENSIVE driving courses. It aims to teach you another perspective in driving, not how to drift around a corner etc.

[holmsy]

that is with near new tyres on. before that it was even worse. and it is an auto. im not sayin it spins all the way up the street. although it could if i wanted it to. it just spins a bit unless i really try not to.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by holmsy

that is with near new tyres on. before that it was even worse. and it is an auto. im not sayin it spins all the way up the street. although it could if i wanted it to. it just spins a bit unless i really try not to.

I see, most cars in the wet will wheelspin easy, a friend of mines N/A FWD TX3 running on 17's will spin easy mate, just take it easy.

[holmsy]

either way i still at times wouldn't like a higher powered car.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

I see, most cars in the wet will wheelspin easy, a friend of mines N/A FWD TX3 running on 17's will spin easy mate, just take it easy.

Take it easy? He's on his P's what do you expect?

Back on topic. Thats ^^ the age group when you'll find it hard to convince a good deal of young blokes that there are others using the road. They (some of them) don't know when enough is enough.
Surely, its the most exciting thing having to drive on your own for the very first time. But after a while as that excitement dies off, they (some of them) like to excessively speed to compensate.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Take it easy? He's on his P's what do you expect?

Back on topic. Thats ^^ the age group when you'll find it hard to convince a good deal of young blokes that there are others using the road. They (some of them) don't know when enough is enough.

Thanks for the generalisation, i take it you havn't read the thread im also 18.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Thanks for the generalisation, i take it you havn't read the thread im also 18.

No, I have read the thread. I'm aware of your age and what you drive. I'm also guessing, by the sounds of it, that you're a responsible driver. You also seem quite mature for your age (I'm not being sarcastic).

If you refer to my earlier post 21 of this thread, I hope you can see my comments in post 144 were coming from experience rather than generalisation. I can only speak from what I've seen myself do at that age, and, for that matter, what I've seen as a passenger with other P platers. We were too "hot blooded" and impatient at that age, and I was lucky not to be a statistic. And the only thing that "woke" me up was a head on collision.

Like I said earlier, I wouldn't know what the absolute solution is. Maybe we should let people learn from their mistakes(wouldn't wish it on anyone). It worked for me.

A good idea imo would be to have any young driver who's had a speeding/neg driving ticket, instead of paying $200-$300 for that ticket, they would be made to pay for (and attend) some road awareness/safety driving course. At least we then know where that moneys going!!!

[colossus]

Geez guys if you want statistics go look up bike fatalities. They fell somewhat dramatically (I believe it was 30% but I am too lazy to look them up) when they brought in the 250cc restriction for P platers. After 12 months you can ride whatever you want.

Seriosuly it would be crazy to hand over the keys to a 1000cc to an inexperienced rider - is this not the exact same situation with 4 wheels instead of 2?

[gozza]

What we should be banning is compulsive social commentators

you discust me

[majin_andrew]

I initially thought it was a good idea, but then I voted no because Advanced Driver courses could make some (not all, but some) P-plate drivers more cocky and willing to do more dangerous things because they believe they can get out of it. Some (again, not all) p platers who did this course might want to show off their new-found skills to a friend, and that is not desirable.
What I'm saying can be summarised by big_pete.

Originally Posted by big_pete

its a good idea in theory.

but it would lead to more problems i think, there will still be ******** drivers, only now they will be even more confident they can pull of those dangerous moves because they've done an advanced driver course

I also agree, however, that it is the driver, not the car that causes accidents. People can die in a corolla at 80km/h.
But I believe this idea would create more dangerous drivers, sure, more tallented drivers, but more risky and more dangerous. And this could also extend to friends of the advanced driver, who feel the need to be like / copy their advanced friends driving behaviours.

I think that letting all p-platers drive whatever they choose would be as safe or safer; as a lot of them are dangerous in little buzz boxes anyway.

[oneredED]

Well, these laws don't affect me as such, but I do believe that there should be restrictions on P-platers. I learnt to drive at age 4, and as such I do have a rather disproportionate amount of driving under my belt when compared to my age (21). When I was about 12, I was driving about 4 hours a day on private property at speeds up to about 140km/h doing all sorts of things, most of which was practicing to get a car that was out of control back under control. This was immensely helpful in a car control sense, and I am very thankful for the opportunity I had to do this. But, this skill is only helpful once in the situation that may take your life, or cause harm, it does not prevent the situation, experience does.

Have you driven at 160km/h, 200km/h, 250km/h, not just a burst but sustained?
Have you driven for several days in a row covering many thousands on kilometres?
Have you driven into a flooded causeway at speed?
Have you hit a cow or large kangaroo?
Have you had a truck lose it's load in front of you?
Have you had a flat tyre at speed?
Have you oversteered off a corner?
Have you understeered off a corner?
Have you had your brakes run out while descending a long windy range?
Have you hit a fog bank or smoke in the dark at speed?

I can answer yes to all of those questions, bar the 250km/h one, and there are hundreds more, I do agree. These are the situations not many people face on a regular basis, and as such they are "the unexpected". If I was confident that the "unexpected" would not happen, then I would happily cruise around at 220 plus all day long, but my own experiences have taught me that "the unexpected" is just that, and it does happen.

In saying all that, when I was first a P-plater which was not all that long ago, and I had never experienced certain things (say hitting an oil patch at speed) that I have now, and I'm sure there's other I'm yet to think of. It did take me some time to realise that I was inexperienced, but I was lucky and never took chances on the road before that realisation came about.

Personally, I know I wanted a "hypo" car when I was on P's, but now I honestly don't see the reason a fresh driver needs more than the power of a mid-nineties falcon or commodore? Heck, thats enough to get you to over 220km/h anyways. Why would you need more in a road car when you're just starting to drive?