Petrol Price crisis......

[Franco Cozzo]

Whats fuel cost this week? Surely it's $6/L by now with how high prices are going

[MITCHAY]

I looked up PetrolSpy and by the time I go there it went up. Less than an hour

Assuming the full excise cut has actually been passed on we are in for a world of hurt in a couple of months if not extended

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Whats fuel cost this week? Surely it's $6/L by now with how high prices are going

If you had a plug-in hybrid or a BEV, it wouldn’t matter…….
$2/ litre, $4/litre…..what level are people going to say F this, I’m going electric?

We’re even seeing certain semis and B Double trucks switching to swap and go battery electrics every 500 km…
I think that’s where major change will come when fleets can retro fit their vehicles and move away from diesel.
Not all will be able to do it but, there’s opportunities there for some east coast operations to switch and save.
Trucks that need to stay diesel could benefit from hybrid and batteries for more efficiency and less brake pack wear.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

We’re even seeing certain semis and B Double trucks switching to swap and go battery electrics every 500 km…
I think that’s where major change will come when fleets can retro fit their vehicles and move away from diesel.
Not all will be able to do it but, there’s opportunities there for some east coast operations to switch and save.
Trucks that need to stay diesel could benefit from hybrid and batteries for more efficiency and less brake pack wear.

I haven't seen any swap and go BD's anywhere. What highway were you standing on.
Nothing like making something heavier and more complicated to help streamline the transport industry. I doubt long distance stuff will change much for a long while yet. The occasional "revolutionary" E truck press release with keeps the punters happy in the meantime.

I've noticed ARTC have gone all quiet on inland rail project lately.
Was supposed to be the flagship Intermodel transport system of the future to take trucks off the road (according to them) so looks like we might all starve before that happens.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Whats fuel cost this week? Surely it's $6/L by now with how high prices are going

$1.90 91, $2.08 for diesel atm in Wang.

[LG17]

$1.98.9 and $2.15.9 in the South Burnett...

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by jpd80

]We’re even seeing certain semis and B Double trucks switching to swap and go battery electrics every 500 km…

Oh, which ones are these and where are are the swap places?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Oh, which ones are these and where are are the swap places?

Central Coast has one, that should get you to Port Macq.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Central Coast has one, that should get you to Port Macq.

For Trucks?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

For Trucks?

No not really, that experimental abomination they release recently Janus. They filmed that around Berkley Vale on the CC.

That was their grand scheme to have the swap and go, seems everyone thinks its really feasible.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I haven't seen any swap and go BD's anywhere. What highway were you standing on.
Nothing like making something heavier and more complicated to help streamline the transport industry. I doubt long distance stuff will change much for a long while yet. The occasional "revolutionary" E truck press release with keeps the punters happy in the meantime.

Trialling on Brisbane to Sydney and later Sydney to Melbourne

Running costs are going to drive this, the electrics eliminate a lot of maintenance costs with engine and transmission as well the regenerative brakes reduce the cost of changing brake packs. Reduction in cabin noise will be a huge seller as less drone and vibration helps with reduced fatigue.
1500nm just push and go, no gears to swing and regen braking recharging batteries every time you have to brake or control speed. Lots of things for cost conscious owners to think about…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4EbWRDXzZw

https://www.januselectric.com.au/

As the batteries are not permanently fixed to the truck, they can be charged at any Janus Electric Charge and Change Station in four minutes. The Janus (patent pending) Change & Charge Statio utilises renewable energy to provide a three-way system - grid to battery, battery to battery, and battery to grid. This enables renewable energy to be fed back into the grid, assisting to balances and minimise surges and outage

The impossible has been made possible by the Janus Electric technology! Existing fleets can be converted with our electric battery technology. Janus is able to convert any existing prime mover turning it into an electric vehicle utilising our patented change & charge system. This significantly reduces the need for capital investment in completely new vehicles.

Note: Converting - The process of replacing existing machinery or parts that were not there when it was built. Janus trucks convert existing diesel engine trucks due for a rebuild or replacement, with a new electric motor at a comparative cost to rebuild an existing diesel motor.
​
It’s estimated converting existing diesel-powered trucks with Janus Electric technology can reduce capital costs by up to 70%.

I've noticed ARTC have gone all quiet on inland rail project lately.
Was supposed to be the flagship Intermodel transport system of the future to take trucks off the road (according to them) so looks like we might all starve before that happens.

An issue with Inland Rail is how many trucks a single train can take off the highways, not all of them but a significant number (Adelaide-Darwin), especially those double stack container trains, every carriage is a B Double less on the road.

Work on Inland rail is continuing, but is broken into local projects so you won’t see major announcements.
AFAIK, a major part has been approved in NSW, the company I work for has tendered for for inspection work on rail joins. Also progressing in Queensland with a tunnel going through the range at Toowoomba and a new high level link to existing QR corridor at Helidon, new tunnel between Laidley and Grandchester.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

No not really, that experimental abomination they release recently Janus. They filmed that around Berkley Vale on the CC.

That was their grand scheme to have the swap and go, seems everyone thinks its really feasible.

Need to start thinking long term, 95% of our fuel is imported but the real problem is storage space, we’re supposed to have a minimum of 21 days supply of diesel, it’s currently 5 to 7 days so if there’s a stoppage of shipping of any kind, that hits our transport first. I can guarantee that oil companies want it that way as an excuse to jack up prices…

Without trucks, this country stops and without fuel trucks are stopped unless they are driven by electricity.
Janus may not be the answer but at least, they point the way to doing something different that costs less.

[Franco Cozzo]

I think Finland has oil security sorted, they carry a minimum of 6 months of the countries oil demand in the country at all times.

Yet we have about a week and if the military starts using domestic oil supply, probably 6 hours

I've discussed an interesting hybrid idea for a commercial vehicle in the truck thread here on AFF, I think it's viable but while there's no incentive for heavy vehicle manufacturers to offer something like that it won't happen, it's kinda like Thailand Specials, they only offer diesel options, customers only buy diesel option that they offer and because their customers only buy what they offer there's no incentive for any manufacturers to innovate and offer alternatives.

There's basically no competition, because they all offer the same thing, where as with passenger vehicles you've got unleaded, diesel, hybrids, EVs, flex fuel and hydrogen (in some markets)

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

An issue with Inland Rail is how many trucks a single train can take off the highways, not all of them but a significant number (Adelaide-Darwin), especially those double stack container trains, every carriage is a B Double less on the road.

Work on Inland rail is continuing, but is broken into local projects so you won’t see major announcements.
AFAIK, a major part has been approved in NSW, the company I work for has tendered for for inspection work on rail joins. Also progressing in Queensland with a tunnel going through the range at Toowoomba and a new high level link to existing QR corridor at Helidon, new tunnel between Laidley and Grandchester.

Living 100ft away from the inland rail route I watch trains everyday go past. There isn't enough freight to complete a full train at present.
I see the "One Steel" train from the Gong pass here everyday on the way to Melbourne, it is half full and willl runback the next morning empty.

Biggest problem with the IRR is it should have gone up through Shepparton, straight through towards Echuca and service the farming districts of inland NSW then onto QLD.
The existing route needs to many modifications to the existing NE rail corridor here while it competes with The Hume Hwy and has to give up priority to passenger services along the same tracks. It will never be competetive with road freight taking to long to get anywhere.

Adelaide to Darwin has no existing bridges to deal with either. Like anything we do here these days, it turns into one big budget cut compromise, just look at NBN.

I would love to know how quickly one of the Janus battery banks takes to charge. Seems to me they will run out of available charging quicker than they can swap over banks.

Me thinks diesel will be around for a long time yet. We have used (and new crop) veggie oil everywhere in this country and the ability to produce it in large volumes without more modifications to existing heavy vehicles, surely this as a bio fuel mix is a cleaner better option until then.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Need to start thinking long term, 95% of our fuel is imported but the real problem is storage space, we’re supposed to have a minimum of 21 days supply of diesel, it’s currently 5 to 7 days so if there’s a stoppage of shipping of any kind, that hits our transport first. I can guarantee that oil companies want it that way as an excuse to jack up prices…

Without trucks, this country stops and without fuel trucks are stopped unless they are driven by electricity.
Janus may not be the answer but at least, they point the way to doing something different that costs less.

Whilst this sounds good in theory transport companies do not like spending any more than they have to.

On their website Janus make no mention of the conversation cost, only to say that it costs about $110,000 for the battery or they can be rented for $140 per day, which would amount to nearly $1000 per week, which is good compared to the amount of Diesel used daily.

I don't know the cost of a new KW but I doubt that you'd get much change from $350,000, before you did any conversations.

It may be viable if you could find a good 10yo one for about $150,000.

Electric trucks would also be limited to Linehaul vehicles that went direct from depot to depot that didn't have to venture off major highways.

Whenever I struck floods or fires or other onroad problems I often had to make >200km detours. Electric trucks would be severely hampered by having to stay on a route with a charge station.

If Janus kept a monopoly on Electric Trucks it may work, but if other manufacturers came on the scene a charge/changeover station would be needed for each brand whereas Diesel can be bought anywhere from any company.

[Ben73]

I'm just waiting for petrol prices to reduce the sale price of second hand V8s. It has very little effect so far.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Whilst this sounds good in theory transport companies do not like spending any more than they have to.

On their website Janus make no mention of the conversation cost, only to say that it costs about $110,000 for the battery or they can be rented for $140 per day, which would amount to nearly $1000 per week, which is good compared to the amount of Diesel used daily.

I don't know the cost of a new KW but I doubt that you'd get much change from $350,000, before you did any conversations.

It may be viable if you could find a good 10yo one for about $150,000.

Electric trucks would also be limited to Linehaul vehicles that went direct from depot to depot that didn't have to venture off major highways.

Whenever I struck floods or fires or other onroad problems I often had to make >200km detours. Electric trucks would be severely hampered by having to stay on a route with a charge station.

If Janus kept a monopoly on Electric Trucks it may work, but if other manufacturers came on the scene a charge/changeover station would be needed for each brand whereas Diesel can be bought anywhere from any company.

For the moment, I think this remains proof of concept in respect of raising capital ahead of an IPO later in the year. Once that’s done, I would expect an expansion of battery swap stations to include more routes further inland and south.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Living 100ft away from the inland rail route I watch trains everyday go past. There isn't enough freight to complete a full train at present.
I see the "One Steel" train from the Gong pass here everyday on the way to Melbourne, it is half full and willl runback the next morning empty.

Biggest problem with the IRR is it should have gone up through Shepparton, straight through towards Echuca and service the farming districts of inland NSW then onto QLD.
The existing route needs to many modifications to the existing NE rail corridor here while it competes with The Hume Hwy and has to give up priority to passenger services along the same tracks. It will never be competetive with road freight taking to long to get anywhere.

I’ve been watching the IRR development over the past five years and what strikes is the circuitous route it seems to take in certain areas, like they’re trying to include improvements in local connector services as well. Not sure about the lower NSW and VIC sections but the Queensland route is a bit perplexing. It crosses the border north of North Star then turns East before going through Millmerran, north to West of Toowoomba before heading East through a 6 km long tunnel down to the Lockyer valley.
A more direct route would take the line between Warwick and Allora, across the great dividing range with easier grades and to the Lockyer valley cutting off hours of travel.

Adelaide to Darwin has no existing bridges to deal with either. Like anything we do here these days, it turns into one big budget cut compromise, just look at NBN.

From what I can see there is loads of grade separation crossings on the northern sections, hours of travel with zero level crossings.

I would love to know how quickly one of the Janus battery banks takes to charge. Seems to me they will run out of available charging quicker than they can swap over banks.

Batteries take four hours to fully charge, a B Double gets roughly 400 km range, I’d expect a conventional semi to get around 500 km. As I said elsewhere I think Janus are seeking proof of concept to raise ~$10 million in front of a stock IPO later this year, I don’t think we’ll see much until after that happens….

Me thinks diesel will be around for a long time yet. We have used (and new crop) veggie oil everywhere in this country and the ability to produce it in large volumes without more modifications to existing heavy vehicles, surely this as a bio fuel mix is a cleaner better option until then.

There’s that but I think fleets will be looking at things like hybrids with smaller diesels to improve efficiency and save on friction braking, I like the idea of regen braking because it offers something that won’t fade and fail like conventional brake packs. From a safety point of view that has to be progress.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Looks like we could be in for more pain....

Fears rising petrol rises could break records
Australians could soon be paying over $2 a litre at the pump with an industry expert saying petrol prices are ‘chaotic’ and ‘volatile’.

Hamish Spence
2 min read
May 24, 2022 - 9:51AM
NCA NewsWire

Every Australian could soon be paying over $2 a litre at the pump as concerns grow that the nation’s rising petrol prices could break records.

The Australian Institute of Petroleum revealed the average retail price of petrol last week was 199.1 cents a litre, a massive rise of 7.6 per cent from the week before.

In major cities like Sydney ($2.03), Melbourne ($2.05) and Brisbane ($2.06) the average petrol price exceeded $2, while it also crossed that barrier on average for the whole of Victoria, Queensland and Northern Territory.

It comes after the fuel excise for petrol and diesel was halved for six months in this year’s federal budget after Russia‘s war in Ukraine affected supply.

This resulted in the average price of petrol sinking as low as $1.60 a litre during April.

But now prices are exceeding the previous eye-watering amounts reached in March, with NRMA spokesperson Peter Khoury telling Sunrise on Tuesday it is impossible to know what will happen next.

“What we do know in 2022 is it is impossible to predict what prices are going to do. It is the most volatile we have ever seen them, it is now chaotic,” he said.

“There really is no way of knowing what is going to happen in the next 24 hours, let alone the next week.”

He said a recent oil refinery fire has contributed to soaring prices, but is hopeful the wholesale price will not pass previous records.

“We saw them jump $10 per barrel a couple of days ago off the back of a fire at an oil refinery in South Korea, but those prices have now come back a bit and we are hoping that will be enough to stop records from being broken,” Mr Khoury said.

“Hopefully for now that will be enough to keep us off those record prices. But again, who knows what happens.

“The word hope which I mentioned there a few times is absolutely critical.”

Mr Khoury’s advice to consumers was to put in the effort to find the cheapest petrol station near them.

“If you are looking to save, research. That is the most important thing. When you‘re going to fill up, before you get in, get on the apps that have real-time data,” he said.

“Those apps or websites show the price of every service station in real-time and when you are living in a city where the gap is $0.40 between the cheapest and most expensive you will save way more doing that than looking at a price.”

[GASWAGON]

Thank christ Albo won the election and will be raising wages for the poor buggers on minimum wage.

The fuel excise cut has basically done nothing for us all as prices are straight back to where they were 2 months ago!!!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by GASWAGON

Thank christ Albo won the election and will be raising wages for the poor buggers on minimum wage.

The fuel excise cut has basically done nothing for us all as prices are straight back to where they were 2 months ago!!!

And that’s the thing about reducing excise, people recon it’s a good thing until the oil companies
come in gobble up the difference, that’s how it would go if we went to just 10% GST and no excise.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And that’s the thing about reducing excise, people recon it’s a good thing until the oil companies
come in gobble up the difference, that’s how it would go if we went to just 10% GST and no excise.

Vote buyer they did way too early in the election campaign, where they still lost the election and feathered the nest of big business - should have done it a few days prior to the election if they wanted value for money.

[LG17]

I have to do basically a double trip tomorrow from the bush down to Brisbane and back and will be towing a car trailer both laden and unladen. I'm really looking forward to it now as I just got a new credit card so I can afford it.

[GASWAGON]

Another PetrolSpy check appears to show Melbourne 91 prices hovering around $1.95 - $2.00 after last weeks highs of $2.15.

Better than nothing!

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by GASWAGON

Another PetrolSpy check appears to show Melbourne 91 prices hovering around $1.95 - $2.00 after last weeks highs of $2.15.

Better than nothing!

How accurate do people find PetrolSpy? I have used motormouth occasionally, and find that the "cheap" stations are often incorrect. Makes me wonder if some stations are tricking these apps by feeding them difference prices.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

How accurate do people find PetrolSpy? I have used motormouth occasionally, and find that the "cheap" stations are often incorrect. Makes me wonder if some stations are tricking these apps by feeding them difference prices.

Sounds like you people need something like the NSW system.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Sounds like you people need something like the NSW system.

For some reason VIC decided not to force servos to report their prices to a government app like what NSW has - there's news articles about it but they're all paywalled.

They must have been donating to the ALP

[five 7]

Wife just paid $207 to fill her Nissan Pathfinder here in Auckland.

[EBSXR6]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

How accurate do people find PetrolSpy? I have used motormouth occasionally, and find that the "cheap" stations are often incorrect. Makes me wonder if some stations are tricking these apps by feeding them difference prices.

I understand Petrol Spy pricing is input by users. Maybe some people make errors but I wonder if opposition stations deliberately input high prices on a competitor station to get more customers.

In Oakleigh in Melbourne's South Eastern Suburbs, A One fuel a small Ampol (was a Caltex) is well known for having Cheap Fuel.
I have looked up LPG prices and have seen higher prices quoted on Petrol Spy than competitors in the area.
I have driven there and the price is much cheaper. After filling up I have asked the cashier has the price gone down today and have been told no.
I have been told in Melbourne prices are very volatile near Costco Stations. When Costco is open nearby competitors drop the price and when the Costco closes in the evening the prices go up again.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Trialling on Brisbane to Sydney and later Sydney to Melbourne

Running costs are going to drive this, the electrics eliminate a lot of maintenance costs with engine and transmission as well the regenerative brakes reduce the cost of changing brake packs. Reduction in cabin noise will be a huge seller as less drone and vibration helps with reduced fatigue.
1500nm just push and go, no gears to swing and regen braking recharging batteries every time you have to brake or control speed. Lots of things for cost conscious owners to think about…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4EbWRDXzZw

Promo for this type of stuff seems wildly optimistic but vague on specifics. 500km of range, at what weight and terrain travelled.
How much $$ to charge these things to achieve max range, and how many battery packs is needed for a fleet of say ten trucks running between two main cities...
The cost of an engine rebuilt (approx $30-40k to inframe a Cummins) to convert to full electric, sounds too good to be true.
Brakes on most line haul units good for 1 million km or close to.
By then if the linings/pads haven't worn, S Cams/bushes or caliper pins/bushes will be flogged out due to vibration regardless of what is powering the truck, so thats a moot point.
Hydro gearbox retarders will work as good as any regenerative braking and make conventional brakes, and engine brakes redundant. So another moot point.
Brake fade is down to operator abuse or negligence (drive to conditions etc) not the tech used. Plus, brake fade isn't a regular thing, so thats clutching at straws to promote the supposed virtues of unproven tech in this application.