Ambitious China

[Mr_G6ET]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Really ending.

G6ET, did you hear (once again) on last nights news of China muscle tactics towards Countries that don't toe the line with them.
I can't find the press on this at this stage.
Nothing like fast advancement - the Asian century troops are marching along whilst the rest of the world is covid stalled.

understand, enough examples around
https://www.afr.com/topic/china-relations-1n86

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by Mr_G6ET

understand, enough examples around
https://www.afr.com/topic/china-relations-1n86

yes I was more so looking what was the subject last night.

Also just to add despite my black hat kind of posts, I'm all for Countries being Ambitious.....but its got to be a win win right, especially todays world.
I have marvelled what they have achieved last 20yrs don't get me wrong but their principles are off centre and there is alot of chips on the shoulders towards the West/and their neigbours and visa versa, pecking order and chest puffing seems to be more important than decent relations.
India could have been in this position long before with all their manufacturing abilities and I have had first hand experience there incl USA based joint venture companies BUT again, its the "trust" factor.
They did what Chinese companies have done during their growth stages agreeing to supply but delivered rubbish.
The mud stuck with them (meaning their Export footprint could be double it is today), China has the mud as well BUT with the relative low wage costs (it is increasing) and good shipping location companies are in a hard place re sourcing elsewhere and the amount of work involved.
So China is also gaining due to current pandemic, logistics and countries with their backs to the wall.
It really is not a great global situation but just as the GFC/the past WWars where there is down turn/loss opportunity arise's and China is in pole position.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Really ending.
Is that so re 30% more - first I've heard of that for NOONE I've spoken with have quoted anything as such, you'd think they would for its a nice outcome if so, business owners and their private premise's and employees have never mentioned this.
I'm guessing its 30% more when the CCP want their land for development - you need to be more specific if possible.

I think we might be talking two different things. When you asked about their business deal making, I was referring to property HERE. Yes, its known that they do buy over market value, have you not heard all the outcry? And yes, even ASIO has reported that a lot of the $$$ coming over were probably not fully legit. It is a place to "hide", hence why they are prepared to pay overvalue. The purchasing have coincident with the time when Xi took office and vowed to crack down on "corruption", people had to get their $$$ asap. This is quite a general statement, and it is not my intent to tarnish all main land chinese people with the brush. But this has already been reported by ASIO.

Edit. Sorry it wasn't ASIO, it was AUSTRAC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-...estate/6841816

[FTE217]

My understanding we were talking about mainland China/ throw in HK as well......
Far out I'm not going to cover about real estate here but 30% more here ? far out over the years been more than that but yer not going there, I watched that wave commence from the beginning.
We all know the situation here and I'm all for our Gov turning things around more for US, they are 15yrs late.

[T3rminator]

One more question, then I'll be quiet and let others have a go. (sorry this topic really fascinates me) "Sell our soul" is used quite often. I'm curious what people mean when they say it.

So hypothetically speaking, if a Chinese company came tomorrow, and said lets build a project, but the condition is that 10% of the workforce should include 457 visa workers. This deal would result in 5000 full time Australian jobs over the next 10 years, and the payback would be 20 years. If you took the deal, would that be selling our soul?

How about selling our resources?

Or how about something a bit more trivial, would something like playing AFL games in Shanghai be considered "selling our soul"? Kochie has copped his fair flak.

Interested to hear people's thoughts on threshold and why.

Ok, I better get back to work. Funnily I have had this banter with my manager, who is lives in the UK, and he cannot believe what is going on here. He reckons the torries are being deliberately quiet, because brexit is coming up and they are going to need to build better relationships with China. Hmmmmmm

[Mr_G6ET]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

One more question, then I'll be quiet and let others have a go. (sorry this topic really fascinates me) "Sell our soul" is used quite often. I'm curious what people mean when they say it.

So hypothetically speaking, if a Chinese company came tomorrow, and said lets build a project, but the condition is that 10% of the workforce should include 457 visa workers. This deal would result in 5000 full time Australian jobs over the next 10 years, and the payback would be 20 years. If you took the deal, would that be selling our soul?

How about selling our resources?

Or how about something a bit more trivial, would something like playing AFL games in Shanghai be considered "selling our soul"? Kochie has copped his fair flak.

Interested to hear people's thoughts on threshold and why.

Ok, I better get back to work. Funnily I have had this banter with my manager, who is lives in the UK, and he cannot believe what is going on here. He reckons the torries are being deliberately quiet, because brexit is coming up and they are going to need to build better relationships with China. Hmmmmmm

We are aligned in that the deals need to be better for the 'not China', as you imply, jobs, tax, duties.
The West has, through inaction and lack of unity has 'allowed' them to do what they do. As FTE217 stated, we are 15 years late preparing for what we see now.
They have some good projects in the north of W.A namely providing water and greening up some of the red dirt for various crops and then farming. Something our Govt has been doing with the ord river scheme but new investment is a boost.

https://www.sydney.edu.au/content/da...April-2019.pdf

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...uncil/11461450

[Mr_G6ET]

Global view of their investments 'unreal' !



https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-...-spending.html

[FTE217]

I wonder when that map was done re accuracy, surely there is more Loans/partnerships.

My take excl countries like Russia/India the rest in that map to me shows "vulnerable" countries with crap economies/politics, easy fodder like Nth Africa.
5 loans associated with oil.
$258B to Russian oil in exchange for 15M tonnes annually over 20yrs.
Wonder how that will balance with the amount of EV's in their market over the next 10yrs.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

One more question, then I'll be quiet and let others have a go. (sorry this topic really fascinates me) "Sell our soul" is used quite often. I'm curious what people mean when they say it.

So hypothetically speaking, if a Chinese company came tomorrow, and said lets build a project, but the condition is that 10% of the workforce should include 457 visa workers. This deal would result in 5000 full time Australian jobs over the next 10 years, and the payback would be 20 years. If you took the deal, would that be selling our soul?

How about selling our resources?

Or how about something a bit more trivial, would something like playing AFL games in Shanghai be considered "selling our soul"? Kochie has copped his fair flak.

Interested to hear people's thoughts on threshold and why.

Ok, I better get back to work. Funnily I have had this banter with my manager, who is lives in the UK, and he cannot believe what is going on here. He reckons the torries are being deliberately quiet, because brexit is coming up and they are going to need to build better relationships with China. Hmmmmmm

You tell me what you think Selling our soul implies ?

Your 1st hypothetical, why would there be the need of 10% 457 visa workers ?

Resource's ? The minerals industry is among the top five producers of the world's key mineral commodities. Additionally, Australia is the world's largest exporter of black coal, iron ore, alumina, lead and zinc and the second largest exporter of uranium - then add in Gas.

Promoting a sport elsewhere is not selling any soul, that stooopid game needs to expand for its going to shrink through the future decades for most migrants won't grasp arial ping pong.

Your right others need to get involved here.

[Mr_G6ET]

Originally Posted by FTE217

I wonder when that map was done re accuracy, surely there is more Loans/partnerships.
.........

Good pick, the data is 2017, published 8 months ago.
Better link:
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/glo...-megaprojects/

Interesting visual web site, this is a search on 'chinese investment':
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/?s=chinese+investment

[Mr_G6ET]

Originally Posted by FTE217

If China achieves that goal and the United States fails to address it, the report said, it “will have serious implications for US national interests and the security of the international rules-based order”.

This is a part of the story below, I guess the bold text above all but sums up the points raised earlier

https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...63866bbb561da6

[Mr_G6ET]

Interesting..
China imports more than $300 billion worth of integrated circuits each year and its semiconductor developers rely on U.S.-made chip design tools and patents, as well as critical manufacturing technologies from U.S. allies.

$300bln !

https://www.aljazeera.com/ajimpact/c...023424077.html

[Citroënbender]

This thread’s gone quiet. In light of current posturing it might spark up again.

[Polyal]

People need to stop being so alarmist.

Any market is only as dangerous as you let them be, China's scale is beyond most people who complains comprehension and therefore its seen as a threat because they dont understand and they are salty that the management of their company has not done anything to future proof their job (or they haven't taken steps themselves).

I believe we will see some countries/companies start to push back a little, and start negotiating better terms than chasing the fast cash.

[MITCHAY]

So China is angry at Australia again. I find it amusing that they have described us as gum on their shoes and a US lapdog but are coming so hard against us.

It is rather strange that Xi Pindick and the rest of the CCP and Trumpy are not better friends. Both are thin skinned, bullies and whingers of the highest order

[Trevor 57]

I only have a few words on this China thing, they are acting like a school yard bully, not picking on the big kid in the playground (America-Europe) but picking on the little bloke (Australia), the one the know they can hurt easily.

**** China - buy Australian, buy American, buy anything but not Chinese - we can hurt China more than our Government can, just stop buying their cheap ****, bring them to their knees financially. If the whole world did this China would have no money to be a threat to anyone

[five 7]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I only have a few words on this China thing, they are acting like a school yard bully, not picking on the big kid in the playground (America-Europe) but picking on the little bloke (Australia), the one the know they can hurt easily.

**** China - buy Australian, buy American, buy anything but not Chinese - we can hurt China more than our Government can, just stop buying their cheap ****, bring them to their knees financially. If the whole world did this China would have no money to be a threat to anyone

Agree totally on buying non Chinese products if you can, my Wife not so much she likes a perceived bargain, would the bulling be there Five Eyes comments by any chance the poking and blinding one, over Hong Kong.

[T3rminator]

The message isn't getting through to consumers on both sides.

Chinese economy recovering thanks to billions in Australian stimulus packages
https://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...dd84c1e6bdc3a4

Australian businesses prosper in world's biggest shopping festival despite trade tensions with China
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-...sions/12868362

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

So China is angry at Australia again.

This is unfortunately quite funny and sad at the same time. I reckon they are angry because they have been embarrassed. Friends living and working in China tell me that the chinese government has previously promoted Australia as a place to visit, a place to do business, invest and to study. Then BAM......2020 happened. A lot of the time I don't think its what we say, but its HOW we say it. And this is where the Morrison government has failed miserably IMHO, diplomacy. How did this mess all start? 72 hours after a phone call with Donald Trump in March . The EU played the "call for Covid investigation" perfectly....they picked up the phone first.

Unless this saga gets unFUBARED, the effects will be felt for generations to come. The chinese consumer market will (or already IS?) be a dream for capitalism. The Biden administration will probably reset the engagement protocol with China. Whilst they will unlikely be friends, they will not be enemies either. The UK recruited Tony Abbott as trade advisor for a reason, because he has shown he can get stuff done with China. Read his 2019 blog published on the Lowy Institute, its one of the best pieces on this topic from a government official.

The powerful will always use some form of bullying to get what they want, because they can. It has happened throughout history and it will happen going forward. Get used to it. But it would be helpful if we can at least have an open dialogue to try get some benefits our way.

Poyal is spot on. Its hard to get your head around the enormity of what is happening. For the sinophobics, the future looks scary.

With the federal government signing into RCEP, what does this mean for the future? RCEP was originally designed by China to counter the TPP. You've got to wonder why RCEP was a "secret deal" in the making. What was there to hide? Who were we afraid of ****ing off? Or what is in the fine print that they didn't want scrutiny over?

Hopefully once Trump is gone we can get them to pick up our phones again. Confuscious says, play Trump games win Trump prizes.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Hopefully once Trump is gone we can get them to pick up our phones again. .

Why, so we can keep digging up, selling off our country to them for nothing and buying back cheap crap ?
Lets trade with other countries instead and not grovel to this tyrant.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Why, so we can keep digging up, selling off our country to them for nothing and buying back cheap crap ?
Lets trade with other countries instead and not grovel to this tyrant.

Which other countries would they be? We already trade with a majority of the countries that signed up to RCEP. I don't think we have limited our trade options by choice. We can probably replace the wines and beefs in time, but I can't see a readily replacement market for the dirt. I'm hearing we are bypassing the beef ban by routing it through Vietnam . There is just no other market.

India and Indonesia are probably a decade or two away from getting a majority of their population into the middle to upper income bracket. Its just reality.

Talking doesn't necessarily mean grovelling. The EU and parts of asia has shown you can have a sensible dialogue.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I only have a few words on this China thing, they are acting like a school yard bully, not picking on the big kid in the playground (America-Europe) but picking on the little bloke (Australia), the one the know they can hurt easily.

**** China - buy Australian, buy American, buy anything but not Chinese - we can hurt China more than our Government can, just stop buying their cheap ****, bring them to their knees financially. If the whole world did this China would have no money to be a threat to anyone

By doing that you create the ultimate scenario for war; why did Japan go to war with the USA in WW2?
Remember History has a bad habit of repeating itself.

Cheers

[Polyal]

Gosh I am getting sick of hearing "academics" commenting on the Japan deal sprouting it as an indiciation we are getting ready for war.

Its almost like people are spruking the possibility to create their own reality in some quest to be the bestest boffin out there...STFU.

It is a shame we are so reliant on mining exports at the moment, surely we could have bumped the tariffs up a bit on iron to balance the books until people calm down a bit and we need to seriously be more proactive in diversifying.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Officemanager

By doing that you create the ultimate scenario for war; why did Japan go to war with the USA in WW2?
Remember History has a bad habit of repeating itself.

Cheers

I can tell you the real reason Japan bombed Pearl Harbour and it has to do with Australia, The League of Nations (pre-UN), Billy Hughes (Aust PM), David Lloyd (UK PM) and Woodrow Wilson (US Pres), but I will let you Google it

[Bossxr8]

60 Minutes had a real good interview with HR McMaster, former US National Security Advisor last night. Straight up he was saying China are nothing but a cancer, and will bully and intimidate smaller countries to get what they want. They will provide funding for infrastructure in those countries, then they basically own them, and use that power to control that countries foreign policy. They are complete tyrants.

Funny how recently people have been attacking the UK over their colonialist past, but that's exactly what China is doing now. Yet hardly anyone wants to say anything about it.

[five 7]

Heres a perfect example.
https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awrg...rpUjO8N3mcwMU-

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by five 7

Heres a perfect example.
https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awrg...rpUjO8N3mcwMU-

Spot on.

I found this quote hilarious.

Wang said China has only benevolent intentions in Tonga and no hidden agenda. “Some people in the West are being over-sensitive and too suspicious,” he said. “No need.”



The irony of a chinese official calling someone else over-sensitive is off the charts.

And no doubt the chinese bugged the embassy they built for them too.

[five 7]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Spot on.

I found this quote hilarious.

Wang said China has only benevolent intentions in Tonga and no hidden agenda. “Some people in the West are being over-sensitive and too suspicious,” he said. “No need.”



The irony of a chinese official calling someone else over-sensitive is off the charts.

And no doubt the chinese bugged the embassy they built for them too.

No need, i think they know how Tonga works already, right off topic but they are bent from the King down and the 501 deportees have taken advantage of that, check this link out.
https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=Awr4...jl0t2CvANr1HA-

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I can tell you the real reason Japan bombed Pearl Harbour and it has to do with Australia, The League of Nations (pre-UN), Billy Hughes (Aust PM), David Lloyd (UK PM) and Woodrow Wilson (US Pres), but I will let you Google it

Sounds like you cannot otherwise you would have.
Cheers

[Trevor 57]

I don't need to - facts are facts

A critical part of Australian history

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

60 Minutes had a real good interview with HR McMaster, former US National Security Advisor last night. Straight up he was saying China are nothing but a cancer, and will bully and intimidate smaller countries to get what they want. They will provide funding for infrastructure in those countries, then they basically own them, and use that power to control that countries foreign policy. They are complete tyrants.

Funny how recently people have been attacking the UK over their colonialist past, but that's exactly what China is doing now. Yet hardly anyone wants to say anything about it.

Whats with the American obsession?

China is like any other power, they will flex and push to get what they want. They are going to find out how the rest of the world works but its going to take some pain until people push back.

Seems similar to the Russia story, except China currently means more to the world than Russia did...didnt work out so well for them.

America is not shining beacon for how countries should behave.