MOTOR Feb 2015: XR8 vs SSV Redline + XR6T vs SS

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by WPR1

For me (and the reason I chose a GT) was because it didnt have a rock hard track setup, so I am not surprised the SS was quicker around a track.

The GT is not rock hard no, it is soft, wallowy and can't control the weight of the huge cylinder heads up so high and out to the sides at the front of the car. But if you don't drive remotely hard at all yes this likely won't bother you in the slightest, especially if you only drive on largely smooth roads.

By the way, good suspension can be awesome at the track and compliant, that is what quality suspension brings, quality suspension is not just reduced travel and rock hard, that is what rock apes do in their back yard with lowered springs etc. that give them very little travel and makes the suspension harsh and basically just totally wrong, and just makes their car go slower anyway as well as being atrociously uncomfortable. Actually, most that do this do it for the look anyway and not the performance, as they can feel it makes their car handle like crap, but it is all about the look, bro..... (slaps forehead)

Good suspension is not only quicker on the track but also more comfortable on the road as the control comes from much better damping circuits that much more effectively control the compression and rebound through far superior valving and flow which creates far better response and control throughout the suspensions range of motion, without the need to reduce the travel etc. and thus ruin the ride.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by mcnews

The GT is not rock hard no, it is soft, wallowy and can't control the weight of the huge cylinder heads up so high and out to the sides at the front of the car. But if you don't drive remotely hard at all yes this likely won't bother you in the slightest, especially if you only drive on largely smooth roads.

By the way, good suspension can be awesome at the track and compliant, that is what quality suspension brings, quality suspension is not just reduced travel and rock hard, that is what rock apes do in their back yard with lowered springs etc. that give them very little travel and makes the suspension harsh and basically just totally wrong, and just makes their car go slower anyway as well as being atrociously uncomfortable. Actually, most that do this do it for the look anyway and not the performance, as they can feel it makes their car handle like crap, but it is all about the look, bro..... (slaps forehead)

Good suspension is not only quicker on the track but also more comfortable on the road as the control comes from much better damping circuits that much more effectively control the compression and rebound through far superior valving and flow which creates far better response and control throughout the suspensions range of motion, without the need to reduce the travel etc. and thus ruin the ride.

Are you talking stock GT or Rspec/GTF? I agree with you on the GT front. Not so much with the GT Rspec/GTF.

Also, the last bit is not necessarily true. When I get a nice sticky track, I can firm up the suspension to rock hard and change the rebound to a similar amount. Whilst this is great on the pool table surface track, it would be hell on earth on the road! Also, need to change the travel (ride height) depending on the track.

Example: Wakefield I'd setup for more oversteer than at SMP and also the rebound would be dialed different cause Wakefield is a lot more uneven when compared to SMP (though they did resurface last year which has improved the track!!)

[futura]

Looking back at the FPV BF MkII GT 40th Anniversary, John Bowe recorded a 1:43.10 second lap time around Winton. This was achieved with the old Boss 290 Power plant, not the Boss 335 coyote motor.

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/Conte...=1163399758071

One has to wonder what a FG X XR8 with a capable driver like John Bowe can achieve around winton?

[skoobysGT]

Originally Posted by futura

Looking back at the FPV BF MkII GT 40th Anniversary, John Bowe recorded a 1:43.10 second lap time around Winton. This was achieved with the old Boss 290 Power plant, not the Boss 335 coyote motor.

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/Conte...=1163399758071

One has to wonder what a FG X XR8 with a capable driver like John Bowe can achieve around winton?

He will do better still in the SSV redline.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by futura

Looking back at the FPV BF MkII GT 40th Anniversary, John Bowe recorded a 1:43.10 second lap time around Winton. This was achieved with the old Boss 290 Power plant, not the Boss 335 coyote motor.

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/Conte...=1163399758071

One has to wonder what a FG X XR8 with a capable driver like John Bowe can achieve around winton?

I'd expect the time to be faster too, but I'm thinking that once the XR8 starts hot lapping the overboost would easily be lost with power likely falling from around 375 kW to the 335 kW area, so think 335 vs 290, and against the Redline Commodore think 335 vs 260, not 375 kW for the Ford Miami engine.

I think it's good time win at the track for the Redline though, because even at 335 vs 260 kW, the power/weight advantage still looks like about 23% in favour of the Ford to me.

[futura]

What I really would like to see is the best v8supercar drivers from each camp (red and blue) do a lap shootout. Tander Vs. Winterbottom. Pick a track like Bathurst then go all out.

[futura]

Originally Posted by 2242100

I'd expect the time to be faster too, but I'm thinking that once the XR8 starts hot lapping the overboost would easily be lost with power likely falling from around 375 kW to the 335 kW area, so think 335 vs 290, and against the Redline Commodore think 335 vs 260, not 375 kW.

Still a good time win at the track for the Redline though, because the Fords power/weight advantage is apparently about 23%.

You will find the lap times recorded are the best lap times for each vehicle. All is needed is one best lap. I doubt any of these cars can maintain consistent times lap after lap.

[Wretched]

What I want to see is Xr8 vs SSV. XR8 driven by Mark Winterbottom, SSV driven by any random person from the street. Oh and the SSV has to be limited to 4th gear, it cannot turn left and the track has to be wet for it. That should be fair.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by futura

You will find the lap times recorded are the best lap times for each vehicle. All is needed is one best lap. I doubt any of these cars can maintain consistent times lap after lap.

From some 335 kW GT data that I've seen, the Overboost can drop off quite quickly, and unless the weather was quite cool, I think quite a bit of the overboost performance could likely have been lost by the start of the first hotlap.

I'd expect that they would have come out of the pits and would have completed almost a full lap before going onto 3 timed hotlaps.

I agree that you're right about cars dropping off in performance though, but I think it's just more of a problem with the "non intercooled" Miami (I've seen an F6 do quite a bit better than the V8 in that respect).

[futura]

Originally Posted by Wretched

What I want to see is Xr8 vs SSV. XR8 driven by Mark Winterbottom, SSV driven by any random person from the street. Oh and the SSV has to be limited to 4th gear, it cannot turn left and the track has to be wet for it. That should be fair.

Sounds like Tander is your Random person off the street. Just got to make sure he has enough fuel to finish the lap.

[HO 3]

Has anyone run one these XR8s on a chassis dyno yet? Are they making there power the same as the previous 335 GT, any differences in the tunes etc?

Cheers Mick

[Smoke Pursuit]

The SSV handles better, I have driven one and my friend picked one up last week. You can feel how direct it is. XR8 is quicker to 100 *by a long shot if driven by the right person*.

Time to move on I say.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by futura

I'm sure you will find something to complaint about

Not me, but I can see some already warming up their keyboards ready to ***** and whine like they do after every test. I'm thinking the SSV would probably be in red and therefore too fast. Has to be in white and the test has to be done on the 5th day of the month after a full moon. Additionally I have to revisit my previous criteria, the SS has to manual be driven by a one legged man.

Can't wait for the excuses after that.

[futura]

Originally Posted by Wretched

Not me, but I can see some already warming up their keyboards ready to ***** and whine like they do after every test. I'm thinking the SSV would probably be in red and therefore too fast. Has to be in white and the test has to be done on the 5th day of the month after a full moon. Additionally I have to revisit my previous criteria, the SS has to manual be driven by a one legged man.

Can't wait for the excuses after that.

tell us what you really think? don't hold back

[b0son]

Originally Posted by HO 3

Has anyone run one these XR8s on a chassis dyno yet? Are they making there power the same as the previous 335 GT, any differences in the tunes etc?

Do you honestly think Ford would have spent the money to emissions test a new tune?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Wretched

What I want to see is Xr8 vs SSV. XR8 driven by Mark Winterbottom, SSV driven by any random person from the street. Oh and the SSV has to be limited to 4th gear, it cannot turn left and the track has to be wet for it. That should be fair.

Pfft. How is that fair??

The SSV should be driven in reverse. With the boot open.

[futura]

Originally Posted by b0son

Pfft. How is that fair??

The SSV should be driven in reverse. With the boot open.

[futura]

Time to close this thread.

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by 2242100

From some 335 kW GT data that I've seen, the Overboost can drop off quite quickly, and unless the weather was quite cool, I think quite a bit of the overboost performance could likely have been lost by the start of the first hotlap.

I'd expect that they would have come out of the pits and would have completed almost a full lap before going onto 3 timed hotlaps.
I think you're right about cars dropping off in performance though, I think it's just more of a problem with the no intercooler Miami. I've seen an F6 do quite a bit better than the V8 in that respect.

F6 (1815kg) did 1:43.5 in 2008 (Motor mag)... not too bad and when you consider the extra weight of the XR8 (1861kg) combined with average tyres, it all adds up.

Even if boost is being pulled back, 335kW is still a hell of lot more than 270kW, so I don't see power being an issue.

We all know weight is your enemy on the race track and the SSV is one of the lightest sedans out there at 1766kg.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by HO 3

Has anyone run one these XR8s on a chassis dyno yet? Are they making there power the same as the previous 335 GT, any differences in the tunes etc?

Cheers Mick

I haven't heard of any yet.

Interestingly though, I saw the following on the EVO AUSTRALIA Facebook page from Jesse Taylor, who has been intending to test the XR8 early in the new year.

"Curiously, both the manual and auto versions I've driven, didn't feel as punchy as a GT.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by 2242100

I'd expect the time to be faster too, but I'm thinking that once the XR8 starts hot lapping the overboost would easily be lost with power likely falling from around 375 kW to the 335 kW area, so think 335 vs 290, and against the Redline Commodore think 335 vs 260, not 375 kW for the Ford Miami engine.

I think it's good time win at the track for the Redline though, because even at 335 vs 260 kW, the power/weight advantage still looks like about 23% in favour of the Ford to me.

The problem for the XR8 is not power. I have seen many cars get slower round the track when extra power is added. The time that the old 290 ran (lol at the boat anchor myth) shows that it is about the power that the chassis is comfortable with.

I know that until I changed to a different king of diff and fitted coilovers, my car at 330 rwkw had become a handful, actually pretty dangerous on the track., Once these were added, I felt a lot more comfortable on the limit. When I was at 270 rwkw, the car was pretty good standard.

The Trutrac diff made the biggest difference in putting the power down out of corners.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by Bent8

F6 (1815kg) did 1:43.5 in 2008 (Motor mag)... not too bad and when you consider the extra weight of the XR8 (1861kg) combined with average tyres, it all adds up.

Even if boost is being pulled back, 335kW is still a hell of lot more than 270kW, so I don't see power being an issue.

We all know weight is your enemy on the race track and the SSV is one of the lightest sedans out there at 1766kg.

I agree, whether it's around 375 or 335 kW for the XR8, it's still got a hefty power advantage. I think that however you look at it, the Redline has done well.
I was just making the point for people that might be thinking 375 vs 260 kW.

It's true too that lighter weight certainly helps, also the quality of the tyres and the ability of them to cope with the weight is very important.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Someone asked if anyones dynoed an FGX XR8.. Ive seen one bring 305 rwkw so far (in line with GT).

All comes down to the individual dyno etc!

[2242100]

Originally Posted by tweeked

The problem for the XR8 is not power. I have seen many cars get slower round the track when extra power is added. The time that the old 290 ran (lol at the boat anchor myth) shows that it is about the power that the chassis is comfortable with.

I know that until I changed to a different king of diff and fitted coilovers, my car at 330 rwkw had become a handful, actually pretty dangerous on the track., Once these were added, I felt a lot more comfortable on the limit. When I was at 270 rwkw, the car was pretty good standard.

The Trutrac diff made the biggest difference in putting the power down out of corners.

Seems to me that Holden has hit the sweet spot with the car and engine.

[mcnews]

The real reason I think is the Holden just has a vastly better chassis and weight balance etc. that simply means the Ford is outclassed in that area.

[b0son]

Motorsport has been a big spending area for Holden. Is it no surprise that they designed a car that would dominate V8SC by actually giving some thought to things like front/rear overhang, wheelbase, track, etc?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

Motorsport has been a big spending area for Holden. Is it no surprise that they designed a car that would dominate V8SC by actually giving some thought to things like front/rear overhang, wheelbase, track, etc?

Not sure if serious...

You do know all the V8SC are the same right?! Bar the engine...

At least the marketing of V8SC is working on some people!

[futura]

Originally Posted by b0son

Motorsport has been a big spending area for Holden. Is it no surprise that they designed a car that would dominate V8SC by actually giving some thought to things like front/rear overhang, wheelbase, track, etc?

The v8supercars have very little in common to the street commoddore you cant be serious??

[hootar]

Well that just proves what an amazing job that FPR, Frosty and Chaz etc have done the past 2 years, especially at Bathurst .

[b0son]

Originally Posted by kypez

Not sure if serious...

You do know all the V8SC are the same right?! Bar the engine...

I was obviously wrong about geometry, but the body significantly affects aero. Was it in EF/EL era or AU, when the Ford teams complained that the body design hampered rear downforce?