Towing a Caravan - Mechanical strain etc

[XR Martin]

VW are obviously wasting their money on all those engineers they have, and instead should just be using random people's opinion on what a car should be able to handle.

End of the day you're still going to tow beyond what the car was designed for, and are just trying to find people to agree with you to justify your decision.

I'd trust hundreds of automotive engineers employed by one of the largest car companies, over someone's gut instinct. And If anything their engineers push the boundaries more than others.

If it was a Toyota you could probably say it was too conservative, but VW...

[MercuryT]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

VW are obviously wasting their money on all those engineers they have, and instead should just be using random people's opinion on what a car should be able to handle.

End of the day you're still going to tow beyond what the car was designed for, and are just trying to find people to agree with you to justify your decision.

I'd trust hundreds of automotive engineers employed by one of the largest car companies, over someone's gut instinct. And If anything their engineers push the boundaries more than others.

What are you on about?

I said I wasn't buying the caravan due to the advice provided.

Simply saying it was frustrating.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

interesting video about load distribution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd-hUX8memY

So yes, clearly if you have a super-lightweight trailer, and have the need to carry a couple of huge ~1T steel discs, don't load them at the back of the trailer.
So glad they had their model to show that.

Tune in for next week's episode, where they will again use their model, to demonstrate that towing a trailer with only one wheel is sometimes not a good idea.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

VW are obviously wasting their money on all those engineers they have,
I'd trust hundreds of automotive engineers employed by one of the largest car companies,

So you trust the engineers from VW?
ok...

[fnp]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

So you trust the engineers from VW?
ok...

Nah, VW explained that in court.


It was just one bloke, with a screwdriver, who put that code into thousands of cars without anyone else noticing... the rest of VW had no idea.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

So you trust the engineers from VW?
ok...

More than some bloke selling caravans for a living, or some random on the internet...

[.:4:.]

Just tow it and take it easy. I have towed over more times the i can remember.
An r36 should have no issues with a 1400kg van. Regs to the side, if you are responsible and leave a decent stopping distance, and dont also take off in a 'hurry', unless the car is bottoming out on gum leaves, she's apples.
If a 09 mitsubishi van has a 1200kg rating with 83kw an r36 should be able to atleast do 1400. Maybe its tyres or something. But i doubt the fuzz will pick that up.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

Just tow it and take it easy. I have towed over more times the i can remember.
An r36 should have no issues with a 1400kg van. Regs to the side, if you are responsible and leave a decent stopping distance, and dont also take off in a 'hurry', unless the car is bottoming out on gum leaves, she's apples.
If a 09 mitsubishi van has a 1200kg rating with 83kw an r36 should be able to atleast do 1400. Maybe its tyres or something. But i doubt the fuzz will pick that up.

Do you understand the dynamics around the loads imposed on the tow ball? Static weight is one thing. Dynamic forces is something else entirely.

There will be a reason why the engineers limit ball weight to 90kg. It has nothing to do with the braked tow capacity.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by prydey

Do you understand the dynamics around the loads imposed on the tow ball? Static weight is one thing. Dynamic forces is something else entirely.

There will be a reason why the engineers limit ball weight to 90kg. It has nothing to do with the braked tow capacity.

Yep. Its called driving responsibility.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

Yep. Its called driving responsibility.

Those forces are at play, regardless of how you drive.

Perhaps nothing happens this time. Maybe not next time. Maybe not for the next 10 times but it will eventually catch up.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by prydey

Those forces are at play, regardless of how you drive.

Perhaps nothing happens this time. Maybe not next time. Maybe not for the next 10 times but it will eventually catch up.

If you can catch trailer sway, you're doing alright.

[dunga]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

Yep. Its called driving responsibility.

Tell that to the bloke towing a overweight caravan with a Prado recently that crashed and killed some family members and is now facing jail time why would you even bother to tow with a vehicle that is unsuitable buy something suitable.
Driving responsibly is not just about driving .

[Pis-ton broke]

i,m guessing that the reason for the crazy ball weight numbers PARTLY is because there are many people don,t know how to tow , which means; what car and trailer combination, how to drive the rig and how to load stuff. low ball weight is quiet restrictive ,imo.
but a lot of it is common sense.
check out australia dash cam and you,ll see some examples.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

If you can catch trailer sway, you're doing alright.

We're talking vertical forces here...

[Tassie f100]

Bet you will find a lot more crashes caused by low ball weight rather than too much.Over 50+ years of trailer towing car trailers,the only times there were swaying problems were when there wasn’t enough ball weight.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Bet you will find a lot more crashes caused by low ball weight rather than too much.Over 50+ years of trailer towing car trailers,the only times there were swaying problems were when there wasn’t enough ball weight.

Correct. This is why its bad advice to rearrange the payload to reduce the ball weight on a trailer not designed to have a light ball weight.

Sway is caused by the trailer bossing the car. Often this is due to the weight of the trailer, but also, like you mention, if there isn't enough weight on the ball, the trailer can take weight off the rear axle of the car. The last thing you want when towing a trailer is to have less weight on the driving wheels.

This is also a problem when people over tension WDH. They don't understand the relationship between mass and tyres and tyre pressures etc If you increase the 'mass' over the rear, but then overtension the WDH so that 'weight' is moved back to the front, the tyres lose the ability to hang on to the road when lateral forces are at play.

anyway, thats a very simple overview and getting a bit off topic.

[Chapter Four]

Tow ball weight affects stability at speed.
In most european countries there are restriction on how fast you can go when towing (80-100kmh), so 5% or less is actually OK and studies have show this.
In the US and most of Australia, you can tow at the speed limit if you choose to.
Studies have show that trailers with a 3% ball weight are stable to 76 km/h, 5% to 110km/h, 10% to 130km/h and 15% to 160Km/h.
There is a big jump between 3% and 5% which is why the Euros opt for 5%. It has shown to be safe for the speed you are allowed to do.
If you are trying to rebalance the ball load, don't put a heap of weight behind the axle, that will make things worse if it does develop sway, even with 5% or more. Put the weight over the axle, but no further. If you can't rebalance safely and get to your specified max ball load, then that van is not for you.
As I've said, I tow a 2T trailer with 110kg on the ball. The car and trailer are loaded so that I am withing the GCM, ATM, GVM and axle limits. I've had the rig over weighbridges to check everything several times.
If you set it up properly you can safely tow 2T with 5% on the ball, just don't expect you can do 110km/h just because the speed limit says you can. (the cars handbook says you can't anyway)

[Fed]

1400 Kgs with 90 Kgs on the ball is legal & safe, you should name & shame the dealer who insisted on the 10% rubbish.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Fed

1400 Kgs with 90 Kgs on the ball is legal & safe, you should name & shame the dealer who insisted on the 10% rubbish.

Not entirely true. If the trailer has a ball weight above 90 when its empty, its quite dangerous to load the trailer in such a way as to decrease the ball weight. That means everything behind the axle. Not a good idea.

If the trailer has a ball weight of 90 or less when empty, then you could possible load it with all the extra weight centred over the axle and possibly not add too much more weight to the ball.

[Fed]

Originally Posted by prydey

Not entirely true. If the trailer has a ball weight above 90 when its empty, its quite dangerous to load the trailer in such a way as to decrease the ball weight. That means everything behind the axle. Not a good idea.

If the trailer has a ball weight of 90 or less when empty, then you could possible load it with all the extra weight centred over the axle and possibly not add too much more weight to the ball.

Well it's definitely legal so that only leaves safety.
I don't know why you would consider it dangerous to load the back of the trailer to bring the ball weight down to the car specs.

[Chapter Four]

Originally Posted by Fed

Well it's definitely legal so that only leaves safety.
I don't know why you would consider it dangerous to load the back of the trailer to bring the ball weight down to the car specs.

Because studies have shown that even at 5% ball loading with weight placed at the very rear to achieve that loading, that once the sway starts, it's hard to stop. Think pendulum.
The weight needs to be central, over the axles.

[fiestaz]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

Just tow it and take it easy. I have towed over more times the i can remember.
An r36 should have no issues with a 1400kg van. Regs to the side, if you are responsible and leave a decent stopping distance, and dont also take off in a 'hurry', unless the car is bottoming out on gum leaves, she's apples.
If a 09 mitsubishi van has a 1200kg rating with 83kw an r36 should be able to atleast do 1400. Maybe its tyres or something. But i doubt the fuzz will pick that up.

This is absolutely terrible advice. It’s not just power at play, it’s axles, tyres, rims, shocks, springs, gearbox, the list goes on.

Overload and something happens? Not only are you liable criminally, but your insurance won’t be paying.

[Fed]

Originally Posted by Chapter Four

Because studies have shown that even at 5% ball loading with weight placed at the very rear to achieve that loading, that once the sway starts, it's hard to stop. Think pendulum.
The weight needs to be central, over the axles.

But in real life the sways will not start with 1400/90.

[Chapter Four]

Originally Posted by Fed

But in real life the sways will not start with 1400/90.

They will, Sways start every time a car, truck or bus coming the opposite direction passes you, every time you get a gust from the side.
They even start when a truck or bus overtakes you.
But if properly loaded, ie weight not at the rear, they will self dampen.
Its the trailers ability to self dampen the sway that determines if it will get worse or better, combined with driver skill etc.

[Fed]

I've always found the sways to be more speed related, never seen one swaying at 10 KPH.

Anyway just for you I'll rephrase that, at 1400/90 a trailer will self dampen, better?

[Chapter Four]

Originally Posted by Fed

I've always found the sways to be more speed related, never seen one swaying at 10 KPH.

Anyway just for you I'll rephrase that, at 1400/90 a trailer will self dampen, better?

Yes, all good, i figured we were on the same page.
And yes, sways are speed related, which is what studies have found.
It takes a long time to get to Urangan from Melbourne at 10km/h, so i find 80km/h better

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Fed

Well it's definitely legal so that only leaves safety.
I don't know why you would consider it dangerous to load the back of the trailer to bring the ball weight down to the car specs.

Do you know how a jackknife happens?

You don't want the trailer trying to lift the back of the car every time you go over an undulation, which odds what tends to happen if you load up a trailer behind the axle. Yes, that's an extreme example.

Let's say the trailer has a ball weight around 140kg (1400kg trailer). You want to take that down to 90kg. That's 50kg less. Do you have any idea how much weight you'd need to add behind the axle to make that much difference?

What you are suggesting is just bad advice. Do things properly or not at all.

[Fed]

I've been towing for 50 years and 10 of them were with a trailer that had negative tow ball weight.
I know a lot about towing, you're sounding like a googleboy.
One fat chick should do it.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

This is not aimed at anyone posting in here, but the discussion reminded me of this ad:

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by prydey

Do you know how a jackknife happens?

You don't want the trailer trying to lift the back of the car every time you go over an undulation, which odds what tends to happen if you load up a trailer behind the axle. Yes, that's an extreme example.

Let's say the trailer has a ball weight around 140kg (1400kg trailer). You want to take that down to 90kg. That's 50kg less. Do you have any idea how much weight you'd need to add behind the axle to make that much difference?

What you are suggesting is just bad advice. Do things properly or not at all.

You are correct. Fed is wrong. I forgot this one day, loaded a 2002 Hyundai Sonata into an enclosed car trailer. The car was in backwards and as far back as I could put it. Well at 60-70mph it was a little fishy but not too bad, but when I got up to 80mph it was really all over the place. The weight needs to to go forward for stability. I’m not sure what “I’ve been towing for 50 years” means, but he clearly doesn’t understand it. This video demonstrates it. 10-15% of your total gross trailer weight should be on the ball with a regular hitch. 25% if it’s a gooseneck or fifth wheel.

https://youtu.be/4jk9H5AB4lM