Illegal to raise/lower more than 5cm?

[4Vman]

Has anyone considered the TAC (and equivalent other state bodies) and Insurance companies might be pushing for this in the background??

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Has anyone considered the TAC (and equivalent other state bodies) and Insurance companies might be pushing for this in the background??

with insurance, as long as the lowering is legal and noted they don't really care, becuase premiums will get adjusted accordingly. most cars in an accident get assessed by qualified assessors after an accident and if looks lower then legal most insurers will refuse insurance renewals for that car unless he can prove it is legal. if it is a factor in the accident and ot legal the persons insurance will not pay out.

with the TAC, well what evidence has been put forward by them on how many:

accidents have happened
people died
accidents avoided

simply because of a car thats lower then 5cm?

why should the TAC care if the car has been lowered by more then 5 cm but because done correctly the braking distance is reduced, and the car is safer?

and in a major investigation with deaths, how many media reports have you ever seen that state "lowered car cause of accident'?

[Kenay]

Originally Posted by Kenay

ok boys and girls it is very sad times for all car enthusiast's around the country...
one of my best friends designes and engineers suspension at arb's head plant in kilsyth vic, he has just informed me tonight after 9 months of adr testing and sh** with the (DOTAR??)dipartment of infatractur and transport bla bla bla...
that they where unsuccessful to changing there minds on this law...
now as you guys are reading this thread most of you dont realise this is only the first attack they are weeks from completing the national law that will include everything that has been stated in the law below...
the best thing we can alll do atm is hit up our local mp to try and get them to pull there heads on straight and see sense.... well that was his suggestion imo we should all (every modified car owner in australia) go up to parlament house and make sure we are heard the problem with this is it only take one person to rev there car or do a whealy and the cause is lost.. i will attach these pdf's some how and leave it to you guys...
p.s for everyone in nsw im sorry you get the new law first all i can recomend is get an affidavit stating that your car has been modified b4 1st augaust 2009


LONG LIVE THE DAYS

people must be skipping the highlighted point this is not just nsw only atm it is

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by Kenay

people must be skipping the highlighted point this is not just nsw only atm it is

ken, most of us do realise that it is in NSW atm. state govt's tho will use it as a litmus test before adopting it in their respective states.

even if another state modifies it before implementation, the baiscs don't change.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Kenay

people must be skipping the highlighted point this is not just nsw only atm it is

I sincerely hope this is not the case and it is either only NSW that cop it (sorry fellas) or that it is seen to be the most ridiculous idea ever born of a government employee and reverted back to normal.

[King Nothing]

This keeps getting worse and worse.

I have just spoken to the NRMA, I was concerned how these changes would affect my policy. I told them that under the current laws, my car is fine, but asked would they be covered under the new laws.

He went through their modifications policy with me. It states that lowering a car is fine, provided that it meets state requirements for registration. After hearing the new rules, he beleived that if I do not have an engineers certificate on the 1st of August and processed by the RTA to be official, then I would not meet registration requirements and so would not have any coverage in the event of an accident.

How the **** am I supposed to get my car engineered, approved and signed off in 2 weeks when the RTA doesn't know exactly what is going on? I've also heard that engineering signatories have been told that any work done after the 17/7 is invalid.

I suggest everyone ring their insurance companies to check this, it could get very ugly.

[MAD]

Wow, that could really mess things up.
Although, if the car is inspected for compliance and it is within the 50mm and is not chopped springs, it SHOULD be fine. From what I understand of the VSB50, It seems that is all that is required to get a engineers cert.

[bluovl]

As I said in a previous post along with ltd on 20s, I would like to see some statistics to support this new law. How many lowered cars were involved in accidents and did the lowering contribute to the accident?

I was going to say that it sounds like the biggest attack so far on modified car owners but I think as many others do, this is only the start.

The Roads Minister starts off ''Hoons may think their car looks cool but as far as I'm concerned....blah.blah...".
Sounds like a pathetic effort to get rid of hoons. Whats next shiny wheels and custom paint. That is not as stupid in their eyes as it sounds. The government could literally justify all new road laws with the excuse of eliminating hoons.

And again, I'd love to see some statistics to support this crap.

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by bluovl

As I said in a previous post along with ltd on 20s, I would like to see some statistics to support this new law. How many lowered cars were involved in accidents and did the lowering contribute to the accident?

I was going to say that it sounds like the biggest attack so far on modified car owners but I think as many others do, this is only the start.

The Roads Minister starts off ''Hoons may think their car looks cool but as far as I'm concerned....blah.blah...".
Sounds like a pathetic effort to get rid of hoons. Whats next shiny wheels and custom paint. That is not as stupid in their eyes as it sounds. The government could literally justify all new road laws with the excuse of eliminating hoons.

And again, I'd love to see some statistics to support this crap.

Put in in a letter then. Call his office, I have. 9228 5665. Flush this useless pollie with calls, emails and letters. The only language these people understand is votes. The 4WD guys are well and truly into this, I'm concerned that we might be left behind.

Those who run car clubs, let him know what charity events you run, how many of your members have modified suspension, how much you contribute to the local community. There are a fair few based right here on this forum.

[bluovl]

I will and I will let all those on this forum know what response I get.
I hope others do likewise.

Although I am in Victoria, and more importantly 'Victorias Hoon Capital', Bendigo, I'm worried once these laws and politicians get momentum there will be little to stop them. These duds, and they are, can destroy peoples hobbies and more importantly, livelihoods.

[MAV50L]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Put in in a letter then. Call his office, I have. 9228 5665. Flush this useless pollie with calls, emails and letters. The only language these people understand is votes. The 4WD guys are well and truly into this, I'm concerned that we might be left behind.

Those who run car clubs, let him know what charity events you run, how many of your members have modified suspension, how much you contribute to the local community. There are a fair few based right here on this forum.

Just did that and called the clown. Im tipping taht they have had a few people ringing today seeing as though I was hung up on as soon as I mentioned VSI 50.

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

Just did that and called the clown. Im tipping taht they have had a few people ringing today seeing as though I was hung up on as soon as I mentioned VSI 50.

i think if we get enough momemtum behind this it may get dropped very quietly....

this has the potential to wreck an entire aftermarket industry, a hobby, flood the RTA till it just grinds to a halt, mess insurance policies, and cause nothing but more frustration and anxiety on the streets between police and everyday drivers..

[Nikked]

This is an attack.

Pure, simple.

Next step, the streets will be lined with army tanks.

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Yep, that's 5 cars potentially off the road. How many are daily drivers?

4 of the 5 and the XY gets about nearly every weekend out: . Not real happy to hear this.

[Ross-b]

Originally Posted by BRG 40L

If your not doing anything wrong you wont attract the police attention, its only when u done speeding or something illegal cops wanna get you for everything while they are at it, unless your car is tucking some rim or rubber then well its the obvious lol

ohh yeah course

and the day that (touch wood) you hit an oil slick and the car hurls into a wall and your insurance dosnt cover you?

[dbirdy]

There goes the $$$ to be made from all the aftermarket manufacturers.....

[Bris_XR8]

I don't want to see young hoons putting their lives or the lives of others at risk, just because they think their car looks better 15 centimetres closer to the ground," Mr Daley said.

"Raising or lowering a vehicle's height can put the driver, passengers and other road users at risk.

"It can affect handling, braking and safety features such as electronic stability control."

How many 'hoons' do you see in cars new enough to have electronic stability control??

It really looks like nothing more than a political stunt, there are already the laws there to stop people from dangerously modifying their cars in height, and if they were serious about safety they'd get serious about enforcing what is already the law.
At the moment they're only serious about press releases.

[TURBOTAXI]

What do I do with my XR6T that lowered as a HWP car by NSW police?

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by TURBOTAXI

What do I do with my XR6T that lowered as a HWP car by NSW police?

Why don't you ring or email Mr Daley's office and ask yourself? It's a very valid question and the RTA won't be able to answer it. All they have is the same document (VSI 50) that we have access to. The more he is bombarded, the more likely it is he might pull back on this. No one knows anything. I was telling the bloke at the NRMA my interpretation of what the rules were. What chance do we have to get this sorted out in 2 weeks?

9228 5665
office@daley.minister.nsw.gov.au

[JC]

Originally Posted by Pedders

To all members,

Below is the Australian Automotive Aftermarket Association response to NSW minister for roads Michael Daley’s press release. As you can see from the letter below the AAAA were as unaware of the proposed changes as we and everyone else. Before announcing such a radical plan it would seem ill conceived for the Minister or those drafting such legislation not to have consulted the industry bodies that deal with those who would be most affected prior to making such an announcement.

Click Here :For more information on the AAAA http://www.aaaa.com.au/default.asp

Subject: AAAA Concerns Relating to Proposed Suspension Regulations in NSW

Dear Member,

Earlier this afternoon we received a press release from the office of the New South Wales Minister for Roads, Michael Daley. Please follow the below link to review this press release.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/newsevents/downloads/minister_releases/16072009_carhoons.pdf

Under the guise of attempting to hamper modifications undertaken by 'car hoons' the Minister has outlined changes in regulation that will cause havoc for both the automotive industry and the 1000's of drivers on NSW roads with minor, currently legal suspension modifications. Many of the modifications outlined in the press release that will require engineering approval are completely legal in EVERY other state in Australia, making this scenario totally unworkable. We have spoken with other consumer and industry stakeholder groups nationally, and they, like us were not consulted regarding this radical change in policy direction.

We are currently drafting a letter that will be sent in the next 24 hours requesting an immediate meeting with the Minister to highlight both the shortcomings in the policy and the gross misconceptions raised in this press release.

I will start a post on our sponsor site with this information as well and add any other information that comes to light. down the track.

Had your head in the sand then? I have known about this for 2 months, and I'm not in the industry at all.

[FTGAutosalvage]

We have had a bit to do with engineers and lowered cars lately, and were informed by the engineer that the ADRs state that a car fitted with an airbag cannot be lowered AT ALL !! So ALL lowered cars with airbags are illegal.
so good luck to anyone finding an engineer to pass their car with scare bags.

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by JC

Had your head in the sand then? I have known about this for 2 months, and I'm not in the industry at all.

Well it's been made incredibly clear that the vast majority of people did not know it was coming. Can I ask how you came to know about this 2 months in advance, whilst many other large groups did not know this was coming?

This includes the company providing my insurance, the NRMA. They have no idea whether or not I will be insured in a fortnight. Somehow I don't think the NRMA is the sort of place to have their "head in the sand" on such important issues that would affect a number of policy holders. Neither does the RTA, the body who is meant to be implementing this. I've had numerous phone calls with the technical hotline and even they have unanswered questions.

It is completely unacceptable that I do not know if in two weeks time my car will be insured due to a rushed change in the law. NO excuses.

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by FTGAutosalvage

We have had a bit to do with engineers and lowered cars lately, and were informed by the engineer that the ADRs state that a car fitted with an airbag cannot be lowered AT ALL !! So ALL lowered cars with airbags are illegal.
so good luck to anyone finding an engineer to pass their car with scare bags.

I find this hard to beleive. I had an accident last year, and my airbags didn't go off. My car was lowered, and my company honoured the claim. Surely if it was illegal they would have rejected my claim, it's in their interest to.

[ltd_on20s]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

I find this hard to beleive. I had an accident last year, and my airbags didn't go off. My car was lowered, and my company honoured the claim. Surely if it was illegal they would have rejected my claim, it's in their interest to.

with so many motoring laws overlapping the other, its really time for all the states to really sit down and draft a whole new set of national laws. same across the country.

[King Nothing]

Here's my letter to Mr Daley. Also sent to Rees, my local member, the shadow roads minister, and leader of the oppositon

22 July 2009


Mr Michael Daley,
Governor Macquarie Tower,
1 Farrer Place,
SYDNEY 2000

Dear Mr Daley

Vehicle Standards Information 50, Raising and Lowering Vehicles

I am writing to you regarding your press release on the 16th of July and
the release of VSI 50 on the RTA website on the 17th of July.

Apparently, according to your press release and this new standard, I am a
hoon. However I have never received a speeding fine, never been pulled over
for anything other than a random breath test, let alone even attempted a
burnout. Yet now, since I own a car with modified suspension, I am now a
“hoon”. My car was modified legally two years ago, and met all required
laws for registration and insurance. Yet now, with only two weeks warning,
my car may or may not be legal.

I take great offence at being labelled a hoon. I do not have a criminal
record, I pay my taxes and follow the road rules. I work as a professional
engineer and come from a family that traditionally votes Labor. However,
this new standard, and the direct and poorly managed impact it has had on
me, has caused me to re-think my voting decision come the next state
election.

I have a number of questions regarding this new standard, and how it
affects me. I have tried calling the RTA, they could not answer my
questions and have a number of questions themselves that need answering. I
tried calling my insurer, the NRMA, to see how my policy will be affected
after the 31st of July, and they could not give me a definite answer
either.

1. What statistics do you have that proves lowered or raised vehicles are
over-represented in vehicle accidents in NSW?

2. Have you consulted with insurance companies to determine the impact on
policy holders? My insurer cannot tell me if my car will be insured after
the 31st without an engineer’s certificate. This is completely
unacceptable.

3. I have been told by people that your staff are now hanging up on people
when they call your office to enquire about VSI 50. Why? The RTA cannot
answer our questions, so hopefully your office can.

4. Have you consulted properly with the industry groups that will be
affected by this? From my reading the Australian Automotive Aftermarket
Association has not been informed of these changes. They employ real people
in real jobs, Mr Daley. In this economic climate the government should be
doing everything in its power to protect jobs, not endanger them with
rushed policy. These companies invest thousands of dollars to ensure that
their products are engineered and constructed according to all relevant
standards. Yet you somehow feel that your judgement of 50mm is correct,
based on no evidence?

5. If this standard is implemented, who is required to prove if a vehicle
has been modified before the 31st of July 2009? Is it up to me to find a
receipt for work done 2 years ago, or is it up to the RTA or the police to
prove it was done after the 1st August? The best the RTA could tell me was
“if it looks older than two years old due to wear and tear”. They also
could not tell me who is responsible for providing proof. This is not
acceptable.

6. Have you consulted with any stakeholders whatsoever prior to this
announcement? To me it is clear that insurance companies, component
manufacturers, four wheel drive groups, car clubs, even the RTA itself have
not been consulted at all.

7. Do you feel it is even possible to have every car with modified
suspension in the state either engineered or returned to standard within
the next 10 days? Especially considering the complete lack of communication
to the public.

8. Is the NSW government going to offer a buyback scheme for those who have
already invested thousands of dollars ensuring that their suspension is
roadworthy and engineered in the 50-150mm bracket? These people, who have
followed the law to the letter and spend thousands doing so, are they to be
left in the cold due to these changes?

9. Is the NSW government going to offer subsidised engineering to those
whose suspension falls within the 0-50mm bracket?

10. Have you investigated the effect that this law will have on remote
communities which require tourism from the 4WD community to survive?

11. Why have RTA approved engineering signatories been told by the RTA that
all work after the 17th of July is invalid? Is this to prevent those who
have already spent thousands from registering their vehicles under the old
law?

12. How will police enforce these rules? Will every officer be issued with
a tape measure and a book stating the height of vehicles as specified by
the manufacturer?

13. What about so-called “dealer specials”, cars that have been
modified by car dealers to sell them? They are not how the manufacturer
supplied them, yet there are many on the roads and for sale in caryards
today. Not to mention ex-highway patrol cars bought at auction from the NSW
government with lowered suspension. Will these cars also be illegal after
July 31st?

The modified car and four wheel drive community is not a group of 17 year
old P-Platers driving around in 15 year old commodores with cut springs, Mr
Daley. Yet somehow you have swept everyone into the same group. Our
community is diverse. From those with properly lowered cars to improve
handling and braking, to people with raised four wheel drives to explore
our country and sustain local tourism. The so-called “Grey Nomads”,
retirees who have raised suspension to safely tow caravans across the
country and enjoy their twilight years. From young men and women in the
city, to farmers in the country. All of these people will be affected.

These groups create and support charity events and community. The Annual
NSW Variety Bash, the children’s charity. Volunteer 4WD enthusiasts who
maintain fire trails and clean up rubbish in our bushland. Countless
classic and modern car clubs across the state who raise money for charity
and support local communities by setting up car shows to increase tourism.
All of these will be affected by your poorly conceived, unrealistic laws.

Mr Daley, please withdraw your statement labelling all those with modified
suspension as hoons, it is offensive and borderline discriminatory. Please
remove the changes outlined in VSI 50, it is unrealistic, unfair, unplanned
and uncontrollable. It clearly has not been thought out properly, it is
simply an act to appear like this government is actually doing something.

How about the NSW government focuses on real problems, such as the
recession, the criminal way in which swine flu is being handled in our
hospitals (I know first hand!), public transport, housing affordability,
homelessness, traffic congestion, and crime, just to name a few. Not
putting on useless band-aid solutions on problems that don't exist, and can
cost people their jobs, in a recession, just so that the cardigan brigade
thinks the government is actually doing something.

I look forward to a personal response from you, Mr Daley. Not an automated
reply from your office staff.

Regards,

[ltd_on20s]

nice work kingy.


from all these letters, has ANYONE (manufacturers and sponsors inccluded) received a response of any kind yet?

[Wally]

I haven't read back through, but has the petion site been posted? if not:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/94/he...ed-cars-in-nsw

[SNB05T]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

nice work kingy.


from all these letters, has ANYONE (manufacturers and sponsors inccluded) received a response of any kind yet?

bwhaaa, i sent mine on sunday night. haven't got a reply and i'm not expecting one either, (remember im just some young hoon, even though i'm 32 and race off the streets i.e. WSID)

top letter btw kingy.

[SNB05T]

Originally Posted by Wally

I haven't read back through, but has the petion site been posted? if not:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/94/he...ed-cars-in-nsw

done and done.

[xbgs351]

Looking at VSI_50, the section on Variable suspension height control (all vehicles) states:


2. The suspension height must only be capable of being altered when the vehicle is stationary

Hence my 2005 Citroen C5 which has a NCAP rating of 5 stars does not meet this new legislation. In fact every Citroen with hydrodynamic suspension ever made won't meet this legislation.

Also:

2. The vehicle must not be capable of being lowered so that it is no longer satisfies the minimum ground clearance requirements described above.

Most Citroens won't meet this clause either. My C5 can be lowered a long way when stationary in order to make loading easier and to make hooking up to a trailer easier.

So from August the first, my wife driving a family car with a baby in the back will be considered a hoon - BRAVO!