Has your ZF milkshaked poll - POST 2012 ONLY

[Mont5.0]

Just a question George,
Do you dream at night about transmission coolers?

[olfella]

As I mentioned in another one of georges threads (cannot remember which one but it was about milkshakes) I reckon he is on the take and gets a percentage for everyone that mentions his name at time of purchase.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Mont5.0

Just a question George,
Do you dream at night about transmission coolers?

Dream about much nicer things

Used to have nightmares about "Milkshakes", but not anymore

Regards, George

[Silver Ghia]

Poor prydey and his poll thread...

Completely off the rails.

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by olfella

As I mentioned in another one of georges threads (cannot remember which one but it was about milkshakes) I reckon he is on the take and gets a percentage for everyone that mentions his name at time of purchase.

The forgoing post is offensive and slanderous, I have reported it and requested that it be deleted.

olfella, I see you have also voted in my poll on my thread that you have installed an air/oil cooler and had a bad outcome, would you care to tell us about that in my thread.

I will be reporting and requesting that this (my) and your vote/post on my thread be deleted also.

Sorry Prydey

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Poor prydey and his poll thread...

Completely off the rails.

I have asked you to act on this and reported abusive, disruptive and slanderous posts to you.

I have done my best to help prydey and his poll and we were beginning to get the appropriate responses.

Please delete this post and the others I have requested and it will be back on the rails.

Sorry prydey

Regards, George

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by gmoughton

I have asked you to act on this and reported abusive, disruptive and slanderous posts to you.

I have done my best to help prydey and his poll and we were beginning to get the appropriate responses.

Please delete this post and the others I have requested and it will be back on the rails.

Sorry, I can't do anything about it in this section George, I'm not a moderator for Pub. The Moderators listed at the bottom of this page are responsible.

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Poor prydey and his poll thread...

Completely off the rails.

Maybe a suggestion for AFF management .... Why not have the functionality of allowing a Poll without comments (comments disabled)?

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Sorry, I can't do anything about it in this section George, I'm not a moderator for Pub. The Moderators listed at the bottom of this page are responsible.

Ok have reported here also, thanks.

Request this post be deleted also.

Sorry prydey, doing my best to help here

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by BAXRSIX

Maybe a suggestion for AFF management .... Why not have the functionality of allowing a Poll without comments (comments disabled)?

I think each vote needs to have a post that goes with it, explaining the details of the instance. Then each vote can be confirmed as true or false, with the false ones revised as required, so a true picture is formed.

At the moment I suspect many votes are false, only so the member can then view the poll results.

[olfella]

Hey george I found the ignore function works a treat. I now only see you made a post but have absolutly NFI what you are jabbering on about. I am in Heaven

[russellw]

How about I just close this thread and then we don't have to worry about the name calling. If you really want a poll on this topic then I can create a poll thread with no discussion allowed.

Russ

[NITRO307]

Folks, all your answers can be found in this group. So much wrong info out there.

Must join before you waste money on an expensive heat exchanger or 6HP26 transmission cooler thinking you can prevent the ZF Milkshake....

Facebook Group: The Truth about ZF Milkshake:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ZFmilkshake/

"The purpose of this group is to debunk the myths, misinformation and paranoia about ZF milkshake (mainly caused by greedy mechanics and aftermarket spare part suppliers). We look into the possible causes of failure based on extensive research into:

1. ZF Transmissions
2. Heat Exchangers / Transmission Coolers
3. Metallurgy, corrosion, HE technology
4. Aftermarket fluids etc..."

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Except we are being told it's safe to operate a transmission at 30°C on the say so of a person who works on a ZF help desk.

If that info came from one of the engineers who designed the box, then I might take notice.

I'll ask again...Why do all manufacturers use heat exchangers?
ZF help desk reckon you don't need one. Rolls Royce think you do. So do Ford.

Look I'm totally behind eliminating the problem (if there is one) but lets get the facts straight and to me a chat with a "ZF tech" doesn't cut it.

Originally Posted by arronm

30c, box would be slipping like mad trying to generate heat and warm up. The box will think the heat exchanger has malfunctioned, because its programmed for the expected heat input from the coolant during start up.

Now if the box was tuned for the new cooling system, may be different.

So who that has fitted an oil/air cooler has had the tune re-calibrated. My guess is zero.

You just cant change things and hope for the best.

Car companies spend millions on development and calibrations. I am pretty sure they know better.

And mercury bullet, there is a problem, its usually a lack of maintenance.

But as we all know parts fail, even new ones. Its just bad luck if you get a dodgy one. The biggest problem is if the car is out of warranty the the bill will be large. Luckily if caught early enough a cross contamination (milkshake) doesn't always totally kill the box.

Originally Posted by prydey

If you go out in the sun, there is a risk of skin cancer. It's the same argument.

Scaremongering works by making the risk seem much worse than what it is. That is all I see in these threads. The same couple of people pushing their barrow despite the thousands of falcons and territories out there with no problems.

Adding discussion about gearbox longevity is just muddying the waters. The gearbox, if serviced correctly, will last the life of the car. There is no risk of premature failure related to oil temp with the factory setup.

The sole purpose of starting another poll was to determine if the failure rate was any different in later built cars than the original poll. In hindsight I should have just made it FGX and SZ2.

Originally Posted by 2242100

I think Servicing is a very important issue.

During the warranty period of my FG XR6 Turbo, I worked on the assumption that (given the Automotive World's commercial pressures), even the best dealerships rarely get everything right (of course I'm speaking in overall terms here).

A BIT EXTREME ?

Well, maybe yes or then again maybe not ?

Why ? Well.....

1) Checking coolant quality is one of the most important issues and also one of the easiest things to do, but don't the easiest things often get left untill last ?

And, I'd also say that in the real world, it more than often wont get done unless it looks a bit dirty, but of course isn't that way too late ?

So now, lets think of an everyday real would situation.............

It's late on a Friday afternoon and the customer is expecting his car to be ready at 4 PM on the dot, but it's already nearly 4 PM and the and the mechanic has only just started.

The coolant looks pretty clean, so what does he do, or perhaps I should ask.........

WHAT DOESN'T HE DO ?
I THINK WE ALL KNOW THE ANSWER.

AND FINALLY.........

2) Different dealerships use different coolants with different mix ratios that the mechanics are supposed to adhere to.

So again, how many skilled mechanics run a high risk of getting that wrong under real world pressures ?

I'D SAY A LOT.

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

The other thing is how many dealerships actually flush out all the old coolant from the heater and engine block? Considering that in the FG Falcon there is over 3 litres of old coolant remaining in the cooling system after draining, whether drained from the bottom hose or the drain tap at the bottom of the radiator. There is no drain in the engine block.

Ford do not specify flushing after draining in their WSM procedure for changing coolant. Besides, the three year interval for coolant as specified in the service book is at least one year too long, for the factory coolant.

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Going by that, 'optimal' would mean the temperature at which to achieve the best fuel economy. Therefore it cannot be across the whole 30^oC to 120^oC temperature range. It would be closer to the temperature when warmed up in the factory configuration. Why else would Ford and other manufacturers warm the transmission fluid up to the higher temperatures using coolant? To achieve the best fuel economy.

But in any case we have the email from ZF which says that is the normal transmission operation temperature range for the transmission, not 'optimal' temperature.

Originally Posted by prydey

What is this dissection meant to show?



This thread was for a specific purpose, as outlined in the first post, but as usual it was hijacked by you pushing your agenda.

It's never been about the gearbox or oil temp too high. Gearboxes have lasted just fine being liquid cooled for decades. It's just more scaremongering by you making people think the factory setup is insufficient, which it isn't. Ford testing is slightly more thorough than yours as far as cooling performance is concerned.

Originally Posted by PG2

I just can't believe what causes the heat exchanger to fail (in a small % of vehicles) still has not been 100% confirmed.

When and what was changed and/or improved to help prevent a milkshake in the later model Falcons?

Originally Posted by olfella

Really? the problem was well identified back when Noah built the ark. A lot has happened since and hence the reason the OP wanted data to gather some stats to see if it is still an issue.
And what has you mate done? Come in with his bluster (and told everyone that will listen like you) he has a fix. Only problem is he does not know what he is fixing. So a fix to what? What caused components to fail in the first place? Has this been addressed by manufacturers? What is different now to what it was before. He does not know and will not shut up long enough to find out.
You must remember (if that is possible) that these seperate components were designed by engineers with more knowledge and experience in their little finger than some one who manages to trot along and tell everyone he has seen the light and they MUST fit an after market kit on a chat forum. Just plain old scare mongering and snake oil salesmanship at best.
And thanks to him this thread is f#$%^@# and we will never know what the current state of play is. 5 pages of crap is all there is.

Originally Posted by olfella

As I mentioned in another one of georges threads (cannot remember which one but it was about milkshakes) I reckon he is on the take and gets a percentage for everyone that mentions his name at time of purchase.

[GasoLane]

Cute. You went to all the trouble of digging up an old thread with all those quotes to send people to a Private FB page

[NITRO307]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Cute. You went to all the trouble of digging up an old thread with all those quotes to send people to a Private FB page

1. Didn’t have to ‘dig up’. Came up in google search as I was worried about ZF milkshake.
2. Thread was entertaining to read
3. Quoted people while reading
4. People are still wasting money. Found the group useful. Nothing wrong with sharing.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by NITRO307

Folks, all your answers can be found in this group. So much wrong info out there.

Must join before you waste money on an expensive heat exchanger or 6HP26 transmission cooler thinking you can prevent the ZF Milkshake....

Facebook Group: The Truth about ZF Milkshake:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ZFmilkshake/

"The purpose of this group is to debunk the myths, misinformation and paranoia about ZF milkshake (mainly caused by greedy mechanics and aftermarket spare part suppliers). We look into the possible causes of failure based on extensive research into:

1. ZF Transmissions
2. Heat Exchangers / Transmission Coolers
3. Metallurgy, corrosion, HE technology
4. Aftermarket fluids etc..."

Could you please direct me to the Facebook group for the truth over COVID19?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Cute. You went to all the trouble of digging up an old thread with all those quotes to send people to a Private FB page

Blue Oval News had a situation where a troll attack regurgitateed dozens of old threads before he was stopped.
Suggest that moderation consider locking old threads once they're done, people with reasonable requests
can then seek permission to reopen a thread.

[NITRO307]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Could you please direct me to the Facebook group for the truth over COVID19?

Google search.

You are at a wrong place. Go post in a COVID thread.

[NITRO307]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Blue Oval News had a situation where a troll attack regurgitateed dozens of old threads before he was stopped.
Suggest that moderation consider locking old threads once they're done, people with reasonable requests
can then seek permission to reopen a thread.

That is a good idea. Perhaps also deindex old threads from search engine indexing because they keep coming up.

There should also be a peer review of information posted on the forum so we don’t get mislead by spare part suppliers.

[mexicov]

In an earlier post in this Forum, I tried to make the point that, for varying operating circumstances, some FG owners would want to fit an air/oil exchanger while others believed there is no problem and fitting would be a waste of money. In other words - “to each his own”.
On reading this Forum, I learned of the possibility of a milkshake; that some original OEM exchangers failed (albeit a low percentage) as early as within the warranty period; that the cost to repair a severe milkshaked box is in the vicinity of $6000 to $7000; that fitting an air/oil exchanger was about $500 and that it is IMPOSSIBLE to “milkshake” if using an air/oil exchanger.
It seemed logical to assume that the probability of an OEM exchanger failure would increase with age/mileage.
I own an ex-govt, June 2010 FG XT bought in July 2011 at 55000km. Unlike most owners, I do very low mileage (about 10000km/yr) and expect to keep my car for about 12 to 15 years. I think I would be very lucky if I did not have an OEM exchange unit fail in all that time. I could replace the OEM unit regularly at about $300 each to reduce the risk of a milkshake– but replace it when? Every two years….three…..five? Even then there is no guarantee that a failure would not occur within those timeframes.
With help, in July 2013 and at 74000 km, I fitted an air/oil exchanger myself using proper ½’ aluminium fittings, hydraulic hoses and a PWR exchanger for $375 (no labour costs). I had the fluid changed professionally at the same time. In the seven years since, I have done over 80,000 km in cold Canberra winters. The car is running perfectly well. Admittedly, I cannot guarantee that the box won’t fail tomorrow because of fitting the air/oil exchanger.
It is probably worthwhile remembering that the ZF box was designed for a worldwide market where typical ambient temperatures can vary from -35 deg C to 50+ deg C. Perhaps using an air/oil exchanger in Canberra (temps -5 deg C to 45deg C ) may not be too harmful for the ZF.
My car is now 10 years old and worth about $8000. I doubt if it would be worth spending $7000 now to repair a milkshaked transmission. Effectively it would be a write-off. To me fitting the air/oil exchanger was, and continues to be, a low cost, peace-of-mind no-brainer.
To those who can’t justify fitting an air/oil exchanger on age/mileage/usage grounds, I would say that I value your view and respect the decisions you have made and trust that you accept the decisions of those, like me, who have carried out the modification based on our operating circumstances.
I will update the forum in another five years/50,000km to let members know if the transmission is still working as designed. At this stage I am confident it will be.
Thanks to the Forum members, particularly George, for highlighting the problem and providing a mass of useful, reassuring data since then.
As an aside, do we know if the problem has been resolved for FGs made since 2010? If so, I can understand why fitting an air/oil exchanger would be pointless.

[NITRO307]

Originally Posted by mexicov

In an earlier post in this Forum, I tried to make the point that,...

Thank you. Finally someone makes a sensible comment. Too often I have seen mechanics and resellers getting worked up. I was quoted nearly $2,000 to fit a PWR heat exchanger + highly recommended ZF fluid & filter change + must do coolant change. Glad I looked around and didn't go ahead. Can even replace the whole gearbox for that (IF milkshake occurs; it won't).

When the above sale doesn't go ahead, 'cheaper' option of air/oil cooler gets offered by the workshops which says "NO ISSUES".... Well why did you offer the above option first then?

[Yes, there can be issues with fitting external air/oil cooler (Ford and ZF Engineers recommended a heat exchanger for Australian vehicles for a reason).]

Honest mechanics are hard to find. Glad I found one.

If someone still worries about heat exchanger, there is a $20 option. Change one every year, still be ahead of a PWR one in 20 years...

https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...522805928.html

[aussiblue]

There is also the option of simply changing the factory cooler a minimum of every say 5 years or 65,000 km at the same time as you change the ATF. And change the coolant at least a min of every two years.

[ratter]

where can someone get a fully reco'd ZF trans and converter fitted for $2000

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Would not put a $20 heat exchanger anywhere near a ZF trans

You can get a PWR air/oil cooler installed and a full ZF service with LG6 for less than a $1000.

http://fordforums.com.au/showpost.ph...postcount=1212

Then you will never have to replace the air/oil cooler and have zero risk of a "Milkshake"

More info and poll here, for those interested

http://fordforums.com.au/showpost.ph...&postcount=216

http://fordforums.com.au/showpost.ph...postcount=1229

[aussiblue]

Would not put a $20 heat exchanger anywhere near a ZF trans

Neither would I but a factory one at around $200 yes noting Ford also claim the later spare part was uprated e.g. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GENUINE-...sAAOSwZVpcx38K

[ratter]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Cute. You went to all the trouble of digging up an old thread with all those quotes to send people to a Private FB page

I think Ian is trying to get people to his Facebook group

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

Neither would I but a factory one at around $200 yes noting Ford also claim the later spare part was uprated e.g. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/GENUINE-...sAAOSwZVpcx38K

The "upgrade" merely added a couple more layers to improve the cooling capacity, warranty is the same (ie doesn't cover the ZF) and it is still just as likely to fail as the previous one's did

[aussiblue]

The "upgrade" merely added a couple more layers to improve the cooling capacity, warranty is the same (ie doesn't cover the ZF) and it is still just as likely to fail as the previous one's did

But still likely safe for another 5 years or 65,000 km whichever comes first.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by BF11GhiaZF6

The "upgrade" merely added a couple more layers to improve the cooling capacity, warranty is the same (ie doesn't cover the ZF) and it is still just as likely to fail as the previous one's did

and years later the same people continue to sprout the same unfounded rubbish

[BFIIGhiaZF6]

Originally Posted by prydey

and years later the same people continue to sprout the same unfounded rubbish

And the same people continue to call authenticated knowledge to be unfounded rubbish

Can you please show us the authenticated evidence to the contrary?

There are 7 failed heat exchangers in the poll