Falcon doomed from 2010

[Revolver]

For once Im gunna be a foll-an readneck,

All I have to say is, the world has to run out of fossil fuel supplies at some satge. I intend to use my fair share! I wont be buying a hybrid/electric till its law!

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by SVD

couldn't the supply of power to create hydrogen be relatively easily acquired through using one of Australia's greatest natural resources.... I am of course talking about SUN LIGHT! whats the problem with making a hydrogen production facility out in the NT with a massive Solar array getting all the juice needed from the sun? or even just set up a few nuke plants and utilize nuclear energy for creation of hydrogen fuels which in whole numbers with the removal of fossil fuel burning cars bring greenhouse gasses down overall?

Honestly i don't care either way because i love the smell of burning fuel in a carby fed V8, so ill do my part for the environment and burn as much of those nasty fossil fuels as quickly as possible

Edit:
(Doesnt matter, its already been covered)

[noisytim]

In Australia we don't need to produce expensive hydrogen, which is near impossible to store and would create the need to establish a new distribution network. We have heaps of hydrogen in the easy to use form of LPG and CNG. Those fuels can be used directly in fuel cells to create electricity for any purpose (yes not as engery efficient as Hydrogen - but economically efficient). I'd rather have an LPG tank in my boot powering a fuel cell than a hydrogen bomb any day.

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by noisytim

In Australia we don't need to produce expensive hydrogen, which is near impossible to store and would create the need to establish a new distribution network. We have heaps of hydrogen in the easy to use form of LPG and CNG. Those fuels can be used directly in fuel cells to create electricity for any purpose (yes not as engery efficient as Hydrogen - but economically efficient). I'd rather have an LPG tank in my boot powering a fuel cell than a hydrogen bomb any day.

Think you may be getting mixed up a bit... a hydrogen bomb has a lot more to it than hydrogen under pressure. It's a nuclear device with hydrogen added.

[xy500]

Originally Posted by madmelon

Think you may be getting mixed up a bit... a hydrogen bomb has a lot more to it than hydrogen under pressure. It's a nuclear device with hydrogen added.

maybe he was thinking of this:

[dallasv8]

no matter what happens with ford,when im a 90 odd year old bloke thats doin wet farts full time i will still be driving a falcon.falcons are a major part of australia and always will be no matter what shape or form they take. Even if they do eventually kill of the falcon, which i very much doubt they will, ill bloody well buy and older falcon to drive so i can keep some of my aussie pride alive...and to just ******** off all the doomsdayers out there.

[vztrt]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/65754/to...-rating-ancap/

Update: ANCAP results confirm four-star safety rating.

Toyota Camry Hybrid Safety Rating ANCAP

April 27, 2010 by Alborz Fallah

Australian New Car Assessment Program (ANCAP) is set to release crash test results of the Toyota Camry Hybrid today with the safety rating expected to be only four out of five stars.

ANCAP chairman Lauchlan McIntosh told Fairfax media in mid-April that he was hoping Toyota would’ve made structural changes to improve the Camry Hybrid’s safety given its significance to the industry.

Hitting back today, Toyota released a statement outlining its disappointment with ANCAP’s testing methodology. Here is the statement in full:

Toyota Australia acknowledges ANCAP as one measure that can help consumers identify cars that are safe.

However, ANCAP does not test the life-saving benefits of features such as vehicle stability control, traction control and anti-skid brakes – all of which are standard on every Camry.

Toyota Australia rejects as a distortion any suggestion that Camry models provide a level of safety that is the same as cars that do not offer such vital life-saving technology or have fewer than Camry’s standard six airbags.

Toyota conducts an extensive range of tests on all its vehicles, providing a level of safety that meets or exceeds safety standards in every country in which they are sold.

The Camry range of vehicles offers a comprehensive package of active and passive safety. Customers can drive these cars with confidence, knowing they have advanced safety features that have been shown to save lives.

Toyota supports the development of long-term policies that enhance vehicle safety through a wide range of measures including the overall integration of vehicles, road infrastructure and driver ability.

The Toyota Hybrid Camry also includes a reversing camera as standard equipment.

The ANCAP result doesn’t seem to do the Toyota Camry Hybrid any justice, rating it the same as the Chinese built Great Wall Motor X240 Sports Utility Vehicle.

ANCAP’s decision to criticise and rate the Hybrid Camry the same as the Chinese built X240 (which lacks many of the basic safety features found in the locally built car) seems somewhat out of character for the organisation.

[vztrt]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...0427-tnp9.html

Toyota fires shot at crash test authority
TOBY HAGON
April 27, 2010

In the lead up to the release of the latest controversial ANCAP crash test ratings Toyota has defended the safety of its Camry Hybrid.

Toyota has fired a shot at the world’s leading independent crash test authority, NCAP, ahead of its latest media announcement today that’s expected to slam the car maker for missing out on the maximum five-star safety rating with its Camry Hybrid.

The world’s largest car maker has pre-empted what some consider a media stunt by Australasian division of the New Car Assessment Program (ANCAP) to again cast the spotlight on a brand that’s been forced recently to recall millions of cars overseas due to safety concerns.

ANCAP will today expected release results of recent crash tests that show the Toyota Camry Hybrid scored four stars in crash testing, the same as a Chinese-made Great Wall Motors four-wheel-drive.

While ANCAP has recommended cars with a four-star rating, it is expected to highlight the fact that what is billed as “Australia’s most advanced car” doesn’t achieve the maximum five-star rating of rivals such as the Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon.

Toyota decided against fitting a passenger seatbelt warning light and making modifications to the steering column to reduce the potential for knee injuries to the driver, making it impossible to receive a five-star rating. Similar changes were made to the structurally identical V6-powered Toyota Aurion that now scores five stars in ANCAP testing.

“Toyota Australia rejects as a distortion any suggestion that Camry models provide a level of safety that is the same as cars that do not offer such vital life-saving technology or have fewer than Camry’s standard six airbags,” the statement read in a swipe at the expected four-star rating of the Great Wall Motors vehicle and the five-star achieved by the locally made Falcon, which controversially does not have life-saving side curtain airbags as standard on most models.

“Toyota conducts an extensive range of tests on all its vehicles, providing a level of safety that meets or exceeds safety standards in every country in which they are sold.”

Since its inception NCAP has been in the firing line of car makers around the world.

While most now acknowledge the consumer benefits of NCAP – most using it in their advertising or brochures – they also like to point out its limitations in looking at a handful of very specific crashes rather than the broader spectrum of impacts.

Toyota also points to NCAP’s move not to test the latest crash avoidance technologies, including electronic stability control that’s credited with significantly reducing single vehicle crashes by helping to control skids.

Like all Camrys, the Camry Hybrid gets stability control, whereas the Great Walls Motors doesn’t even offer it as an option. The Great Wall also misses out on curtain airbags.

“ANCAP does not test the life-saving benefits of features such as vehicle stability control, traction control and anti-skid brakes – all of which are standard on every Camry,” said Toyota’s statement.

“The Camry range of vehicles offers a comprehensive package of active and passive safety. Customers can drive these cars with confidence, knowing they have advanced safety features that have been shown to save lives.”

Two weeks ago the chairman of the Australasian division of NCAP, Lauchlan McIntosh, hinted the Camry Hybrid had missed out on the maximum five-star ratings, saying: “It would be pretty disappointing if it's not five-star, I would have thought. One would have hoped that they would have made some structural changes to the car, given that it is supposed to be such a special car."

The local importer of Great Wall Motors, Ateco, was understandably impressed with the Great Wall’s result, following the disappointment of a two-star rating for one of its utes last year.

“This is the sort of result we were sure Great Wall would achieve soon after their entry to the Australian market,” said Ateco managing director Ric Hull. “We are encouraged both by this result and by the fact that Great Wall are already working on further improvements.”

[ltd]

However, ANCAP does not test the life-saving benefits of features such as vehicle stability control, traction control and anti-skid brakes – all of which are standard on every Camry.

Oh please, Camry doesn't have an active traction control; it has no torque and diddley squat power so it's impossible to break traction.
What Toyota failed to realise is that they need to have little electric shocks given to the driver every 5 minutes to prevent them falling asleep behind the wheel of a boring fridge on wheels.

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by xy500

maybe he was thinking of this:

Well that can happen with LPG too, which is apparently preferred over hydrogen.

[burnz]

hate to say it but i think ncap is too far out of touch.

[xy500]

Originally Posted by madmelon

Well that can happen with LPG too, which is apparently preferred over hydrogen.

ahhh, newsflash it can happen with petrol too! they're all combustible, all explosive under the right conditions.
The kicker is Lpg can be stored under much lower pressures than hydrogen needs to be, to be kept in liquid state. Similar to the difference between lng and lpg. So there is the cost of storage/transport that is increased. Then there is the fact that lpg is a naturally occuring resource. Hydrogen is not a naturally occuring resource, unless you want to scoop it up in space.
Its pretty simple to see why lpg is preferred over Hydrogen, for similar reasons petrol is still preferred over lpg.

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by xy500

ahhh, newsflash it can happen with petrol too! they're all combustible, all explosive under the right conditions.
The kicker is Lpg can be stored under much lower pressures than hydrogen needs to be, to be kept in liquid state. Similar to the difference between lng and lpg. So there is the cost of storage/transport that is increased. Then there is the fact that lpg is a naturally occuring resource. Hydrogen is not a naturally occuring resource, unless you want to scoop it up in space.
Its pretty simple to see why lpg is preferred over Hydrogen, for similar reasons petrol is still preferred over lpg.

No arguments from me any more- not worth the trouble. All I was trying to say was that a "hydrogen bomb" is very different to a hydrogen explosion and the terminology shouldn't be interchanged.

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by ltd

What Toyota failed to realise is that they need to have little electric shocks given to the driver every 5 minutes to prevent them falling asleep behind the wheel of a boring fridge on wheels.

No thats called a pacemaker ...

[vztrt]

Seems Camry not going as well as one would have thought off.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...25772500833920

Hybrid: too low for hero

Private buyer interest in hybrid cars remains low, despite locally built eco Camry

17 May 2010

By TERRY MARTIN

AS MUCH as ever, hybrid passenger vehicles remain on the current and future model programs of most of the world’s car manufacturers.

With increasingly stringent emissions regulations now a pervasive part of the motoring landscape, particularly overseas, hybrids are seen as a critical means for car-makers to lower their average carbon dioxide output across their vehicle brands.

They are, of course, also a means for car companies to demonstrate environmental leadership, and a potentially lucrative market segment when enough consumers respond to the message.

In Australia, hybrid-like features such as automatic idle-stop on otherwise conventional-engine cars are gaining momentum, and the choice of outright hybrid models, while still greatly limited, received a significant boost in February with the long-awaited launch of the Victorian-built Camry Hybrid.

Although business sales are driving the current general market boom, and government and rental-car sectors are set to be the major force behind Camry Hybrid sales, it is worth considering how well private Australian consumers have responded to the hybrid message.

And the answer is ... with remarkable indifference.

VFACTS figures show that Toyota racked up 742 Camry Hybrid sales during its first month on the market (February), which includes fleet and government sales and the company’s own registrations.

That is about the figure the company needs to achieve its goal of 10,000 sales a year of the Camry Hybrid – 40 per cent of which Toyota said should be from private customers – but since then sales dropped off to 548 in March and, worryingly for the company, 396 in April.

Of these, the percentage of private sales is difficult to ascertain. But consider that total private hybrid passenger car sales across all models and brands on the market – including the Honda Civic Hybrid, Lexus’ LS and GS hybrid models, and Toyota’s own Prius – were just 66 in February, 161 in March (marking a Camry spike) and then down to 112 in April.

With figures like these, there is simply no escaping the lack of private customer interest in hybrid cars.

Out of about 291,000 private passenger car sales last year, just 725 were hybrids – down a whopping 49.5 per cent on 2008 and representing a mere 0.25 per cent of total private new-car sales.

With the market now back in a boom period, of the almost 107,000 private new-car sales recorded for the first four months of this year, the Camry Hybrid has pushed the total hybrid figure up to 381 YTD.

However, 381 still represents only 0.36 per cent of private passenger sales coming from petrol-electric models.

While the Camry Hybrid has boosted overall hybrid numbers, the emergence of the Australian-built model looks to be coming at the expense of Toyota’s imported Prius, sales of which were down 23.8 per cent last month (with 179 units) and are currently down 27.4 per cent year to date.

Toyota was struggling with Prius sales before the third-generation model was launched in July last year (down 32.2 per cent to June 30), but was confident it would achieve 3500 sales for the full calendar year and a further 4500 in 2010, the latter equating to a monthly sales rate of 375 vehicles.

As it turned out, Toyota managed only 3040 Prius sales last year, and is currently averaging 160 sales a month – less than half its forecast number and well down on sales recorded with the old model during difficult economic conditions early last year.

While a few potential Prius customers might be turning around in the showroom to Camry Hybrid, others might be driving out in any number of other Toyota models, with sales of the Yaris light car, the venerable Corolla, the regular Camry and the RAV4 compact SUV (to name just a few) all experiencing growth in 2010.

With national fuel prices not fluctuating wildly (but remaining reasonably high), and small and compact vehicle segments thriving, private consumers appear to be looking more to conventional-engine cars that offer economical, if not ultra-low-emissions, motoring.

Significantly, these are increasingly diesel-powered vehicles which are no longer the domain of medium or large SUVs and light commercials.

As momentum shifts in the overall new-car market, the mood towards diesel is also brightening – a fact reflected in sales figures, and also car company marketing activities.

Ford in particular has challenged Toyota head-on with claims that its diesel-powered Fiesta light car is more economical than the Prius, and this week the Blue Oval brand – which looks to be a long way from offering a hybrid car in Australia – proclaimed that its upgraded diesel Mondeo due out in the third quarter will offer better mileage than the Camry Hybrid.

Ford has sound reasons to be pushing hard against hybrid. As well as not having such a vehicle in its range, sales of diesel-powered passenger cars to private motorists were up 71.3 per cent last month, and YTD are up 56.1 per cent.

By comparison, sales of petrol cars to private motorists were up 28.7 per cent in April, to be just 7.8 per cent ahead of 2009 YTD.

Diesel still represents only a fraction of total private passenger car sales, but at 7.0 per cent YTD its influence is steadily growing.

In difficult trading conditions last year, diesel accounted for 5.75 per cent of all private new-car sales, while in 2008 it was at 6.1 per cent.

Back in 2005, you could turn those figures around – private diesel passenger car sales were just 1.6 per cent of the total.

Hybrid sales, which in 2005 were also climbing at a phenomenal rate, albeit off an extremely low base, have not had the same good fortune.

It seems that when the economic downturn hit in 2008, hybrid sales stalled at the lights – and the automatic restart does not appear to be kicking in like it should as economic conditions improve and even now that Toyota is selling a locally built model aimed squarely at Australian mums and dads.

[Bossxr8]

Hybrids are nothing but a con. Diesels are more economical and usualy cheaper than hybrid equivelents. Sales figures back that up.

Toyota must be concerned about how poorly the Camry Hybrid is now selling.

[GASWAGON]

LPG is even cheaper and does'nt suffer the new 'weekend' price hikes i've been seeing last few months of up to 15c for petrol/diesel.... How do they get away with it????

[burnz]

that hybred sales graph is a bit silly april09~april09 not april10

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Hybrids are nothing but a con. Diesels are more economical and usualy cheaper than hybrid equivelents. Sales figures back that up.

Toyota must be concerned about how poorly the Camry Hybrid is now selling.

Hybrids a con - Surely they cant be can they ?

What the vast majority of planet saving greenies dont realise is that they are a big big con. The con is not intentional on the car makers behalf, but none the less is a con.
The problem with these ozone saving cars are many but i will summarize a couple of signifigant short points
* "more manufacturing time and proccess" goes into their production & making as opposed to their conventional cousins = extra industrial greenhouse emmissions
*When these cars are exported or imported, they are specifically consigned to their own carriers, sent/received as seperate batches to their conventional cousins. = extra transport emmissions from those big diesal gas guzzling ships

Just think about the 2 facts above and you will realise ANY SAVED RUNNING CONTRIBUTION has already in fact being offset in its manufacturing and logistics stage - and they are only 2 key points.

So yes, whilst us car proud rev heads fill up at the bowser and receive the queer dirty looks from the self styled folks who think they are saving the planet, hold your head high knowing your no more of a contributor to green house gas etc ten they are.

[Franco Cozzo]

I dont know about other makes, but the Civic Hybrid is an absolute ********** to service too, so its going to cost you more to keep the thing running, at $110 an hour, servicing at Honda isn't cheap anyways.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I dont know about other makes, but the Civic Hybrid is an absolute ********** to service too, so its going to cost you more to keep the thing running, at $110 an hour, servicing at Honda isn't cheap anyways.

Very true..

[naddis01]

I contributed to last months 71% YTD increase in diesel cars.

[JutroXR8]

Originally Posted by fte50

Hybrids a con - Surely they cant be can they ?

What the vast majority of planet saving greenies dont realise is that they are a big big con. The con is not intentional on the car makers behalf, but none the less is a con.
The problem with these ozone saving cars are many but i will summarize a couple of signifigant short points
* "more manufacturing time and proccess" goes into their production & making as opposed to their conventional cousins = extra industrial greenhouse emmissions
*When these cars are exported or imported, they are specifically consigned to their own carriers, sent/received as seperate batches to their conventional cousins. = extra transport emmissions from those big diesal gas guzzling ships

Just think about the 2 facts above and you will realise ANY SAVED RUNNING CONTRIBUTION has already in fact being offset in its manufacturing and logistics stage - and they are only 2 key points.

So yes, whilst us car proud rev heads fill up at the bowser and receive the queer dirty looks from the self styled folks who think they are saving the planet, hold your head high knowing your no more of a contributor to green house gas etc ten they are.

Not to mention the environmental issues with disposing of batteries / making them. People only see the emissions figures for running a hybrid. They don't see the emissions figures for actually building one. Plus the extra 200kgs can't help the handling. The Prius is the worst handling car I have ever driven. Honda aint as bad though. It's a massive scam I tells ya.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by EF_6

LPG is even cheaper and does'nt suffer the new 'weekend' price hikes i've been seeing last few months of up to 15c for petrol/diesel.... How do they get away with it????

Don't want to burst your bubble, but LPG is getting an indexed excise placed on it from July 1 this year of 2.5 cents, increasing up to 12.5 cents over the next few years. Further, even ethanol and other petroleum products are to be hit with a new energy tax from July 1 this year. This by the way was announced in the budget last week (albeit silently) but it's there for introduction as of July 1 this year.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Seems Camry not going as well as one would have thought off.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...25772500833920

Hardly a suprise from a private buyers point of view. Who in that price range bothers to buy a sedan anymore?

Some Mazda dealers hardly stock Mazda6 sedans anymore as hatches and wagons are the volume. Ford stopped importing the Mondeo sedan. Sedan-only Accord Euro sells a lot lot less than it used to. 30-40% of Commodores are wagons. The majority of VW Passats and Libertys are wagons. Toyota are fooling themself if they think private buyers want sedans in meaningful volume anymore. But rental, fleets and governments love them.

The second thing which hurts Hybrid Camry was the disastorous ad campaign. This was their big chance to sell hybrid techonology to mums and dads and they blew it. Not one ounce of technical information, no comparison fuel consumption or power figures, instead stupid nothing-phrases like 'most advanced Australian built car'. The Hybrid Camry could have been the iPod of family cars - showing its differences, its features, its unique selling points. Instead it was just another ad campaign.

[jpd80]

FCAI don't share the figures for free anymore but in past years
the breakdown for sedans was something like:
Petrol...roughly 90%
Diesel....roughly 7%
LPG.......roughly 2%
Hybrid...roughly 1%

Maybe Ford's diesel and Ecoboost technology will give them better impact in the market....

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Brazen

The second thing which hurts Hybrid Camry was the disastorous ad campaign.

Goddamn it I hate that ad

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by ltd

Don't want to burst your bubble, but LPG is getting an indexed excise placed on it from July 1 this year of 2.5 cents, increasing up to 12.5 cents over the next few years. Further, even ethanol and other petroleum products are to be hit with a new energy tax from July 1 this year. This by the way was announced in the budget last week (albeit silently) but it's there for introduction as of July 1 this year.

True i forgot that was coming...How time flies... And we already know the excise will be pushed towards the 12.5c extra price at the pump.....
Not sure about petrol/diesel increases but as a general rule as long as LPG is 'half' the pump price of petrol at time of purchase you are saving at least 30% of what your petrol would have cost.. Plus cleaner emissions...And the new injection systems are making full 50% saving now..... Though as said Diesel has the 'low maintenance' advantage..

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by JutroXR8

Not to mention the environmental issues with disposing of batteries / making them. People only see the emissions figures for running a hybrid. They don't see the emissions figures for actually building one. Plus the extra 200kgs can't help the handling. The Prius is the worst handling car I have ever driven. Honda aint as bad though. It's a massive scam I tells ya.

Batteries are almost completely recyclable.

As for the additional weight, i agree they won't/don't aid handling given the way they are packaged within the vehicle! If they were down low it could help though.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by phillyc

As for the additional weight, i agree they won't/don't aid handling given the way they are packaged within the vehicle! If they were down low it could help though.

The trouble with hybrids or EV's generally is that car makers are trying to shoehorn the systems into existing legacy vehicle architecture that revolves around an internal combustion engine, trans tunnel, and wheel arches that more or less have to be in certain locations.

If the car was a clean sheet design for EV or hybrids from the outset, they could do away with a lot of those legacy design requirements and introduce some outside the box thinking...