Australian Drivers Are Ignoring LPG

[GT]

I appreciate your right to have this opinion, RG. My point was that it is unfair to challenge everyone who posts pro LPG because you "don't like it" personally. I have been disappointed that everytime a member has posted a reasoned argument, that disagrees with your opinion, they have been criticised and as a result have left the thread.

Gaela

[RG]

Originally Posted by GTGTP

I appreciate your right to have this opinion, RG. My point was that it is unfair to challenge everyone who posts pro LPG because you "don't like it" personally. I have been disappointed that everytime a member has posted a reasoned argument, that disagrees with your opinion, they have been criticised and as a result have left the thread.

Gaela

I'm not criticising, it's a mere difference of opinion. You can't have a debate about something with only one side of an argument. I'm showing reasons as to why some don't want/like/use LPG and prefer petrol and I am showing my viewpoint on that. Couldn't the same be said to members who disagree with my standpoint?

Nothing more, nothing less.

[Mr Hardware]

Wow, it seems mods are normal people too.
Slinging matches, off topic....

[RG]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Wow, it seems mods are normal people too.
Slinging matches, off topic....

Not really off topic, it's healthy debate that directly relates to why some choose not to run LPG.

Bring on E85!!!!

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by RG

Not really off topic, it's healthy debate that directly relates to why some choose not to run LPG.

Bring on E85!!!!

Is E85 going to be able to work if the demand increases?

[RG]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Is E85 going to be able to work if the demand increases?

That's a very good question, I dare say it will if enough money is invested into it. The supply is keeping up with the current demand for E10 and there are E85 vehicles soon to be released so only time will tell. E85 can be a boon for performance car owners, CAT600 has shown that.

In a perfect world we would have the option of running advanced LPG set ups, petrol, & ethanol blends. Fortunately that day will come sooner or later and from there even more alternatives will be found and with the decreasing reliance on oil it may see oil reserves lasting longer than many thought possible.

Remember current oil forecasts are based on current consumption figures and most don't take in to account the amount of people opting for alternatives.

[mcflux]

Petrol vs LPG, Ghia5L's perspective:

Driving my 4.0 to work & back on petrol will cost me $30 a week.
Driving my 4.0 to work & back on gas will cost me $11.25 a week.

From my previous residence those values were $120 & $45 a week respectively. From an economy perspective, the dollars speak for themselves.

Whilst I do not have personal experience in the performance field, I have seen oldschool LPG technology out-do petrol equivalents (turbo E-Series & X-Series in particular), and would be very interested in seeing injected LPG performance models available. Higher octane rating AND it is cheaper!

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by RG

Remember current oil forecasts are based on current consumption figures and most don't take in to account the amount of people opting for alternatives.

You will also have to take into account the electric cars that will be coming on-line in the next 10-15 years.

[TURBOTAXI]

One things not lacking in this debate is passion.

This is simple choice, if you, or I like sitting at home in a gymp suit dripping hot wax on your nether regions its kind of up to the individual. This is the same kind of thing. People do what they want to do, as for why people dont like LPG, I dont know. Just because I dont understand their frame of reference doesnt make my position of theirs right or wrong.

Flappist, based on my reading of some of your posts, you are in a stage of your life where you have been productive, and now experience relative financial comfort. Thats great and I wish more people worked towards that rather than living for the moment. Petrol as a fuel for you is just fine, and its what you like.

Regarding your povo fuel comments, I can understand that. I am a tight *** through and through. I love to save a buck. I even buy toys on the basis that they will maintain/increase value (Bought a new rifle today - will post pics soon) . I earn good money, I have good assetts, I could drive a petrol car and still have the leisure activities in my life I currently have. I choose to drive an LPG car because it leaves an extra $2500 per annum in my disposable income.

I dont get why this has become heated or "catty". Safe to say that both petrol and LPG will become more expensive in time. People will choose what fuel they use based on personal choice and the information they have at hand.

Who knows, someone might develop totally new, out of scope technology that makes this debate redundant.

[kinksta]

here here TURBOTAXI!

[Fireblade]

Bring on long term availablity of E85.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by russellw

Why, instead of the coming Diesel Territory aren't we seeing a DLPG option? (I know the answer to that question so it's a rhetorical one at best).

You seem to be the small voice of sanity Russ. One thing I'd add is that if realistic (i.e. in huge, cheap supply) alternatives are going to reveal themselves within the next couple of decades, the first signs of them would be showing by now but they're not. Like you say, the fact is that gas is Australia's indigenous resource for independently-driven transport (i.e. other than trains and trams which can use electricity).

Back to the micro-topic, as a Territory owner I would actually like to know why there's not a DLPG option in the pipeline (I can guess at some reasons too but there's no substitute for the horse's mouth!). When the price of oil does take off again the Territory will be the first Ford car to have a chance of permanently biting the dust.

[z80]

I did something interesting today while playing on the dyno.

I proved that a boosted engine that runs LPG and petrol actually produces more KW at the wheels when in LPG mode versus 98 RON.

It is a fact...it is 110 Octane, it is a superior fuel.

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by z80

It is a fact...it is 110 Octane, it is a superior fuel.

It REALLY depends on gas quality. Some places only guarantee their LPG to be 98 octane minimum.

Regards,
Dave

[bluestreak]

Referring to the the original post about Aus public shunning LPG, and the poll.

I currently drive a BF XR6 highly modified for performance, with more mods to come, on 98RON PULP. My wife drives an unmodified BFII Fairmont Ghia also on 98RON PULP. I drive a turbodiesel V8 at work. My folks have a newspaper delivery business and run a fleet of Ford vehicles on dual fuel - most of which I have driven.

Now, given that the original post is about buying a new factory fitted LPG vehicle, if I ever had to replace my car for whatever reason, I currently would not be looking at replacing it with a new factory direct e-gas. It's a good system, but currently it just doesn't have the factor that I get out of my petrol powered car.

One of the Ford Magazines (Street Fords? PerFords?) did an article about the E-Gas XR6 and didn't rate it's performance. At all. For a magazine that borders on sycophantism re: Ford products, that is a poor endorsement.

I believe that future factory incarnations may be on par or even exceed petrol performance. If the aftermarket performance community also embrace and support LPG, and if there are more bowsers available at the local servos, I would upgrade in a flash.

The cost of fuel is not the main motorvating factor in my choice, nor what it smells like or how you put it in the car. Boot space is even only a minor factor for me, but in time even that may be solved.

If I only cared about economy, and didn't give a hoot about how my car drove, I could by a Camry and put it on gas like my Dad is always telling me to do, or just catch the bus or train. The truth is I like to drive my petrol car.

That is why I won't buy a new factory gas car. The missus just doesn't want gas "coz none of her friends drive gas and it's too hard to fuel up". And she needs her boot space. Education can help her with the one, but till the other is solved there will be no new E-Gas at my house.

Cheers

:

[z80]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

It REALLY depends on gas quality. Some places only guarantee their LPG to be 98 octane minimum.

Regards,
Dave

yes, agreed....but pressurized injected LPG actually increases....boost!

[PepeLePew]

Propane has superior octane rating, but lesser 'energy' than petrol = more LPG to produce the same grunt. The butane drags the octane number down, but has greater energy hence the blend improves economy . Both have inferior 'energy' to petrol. So unless you have a guaranteed fill of propane every time rather than autogas blend you'd have a hard time screwing the most out of your 107-110 octane propane fill with your engined designed and tuned with greater compression etc....

Personally I like to stick to propane where available as at least I KNOW what I'm putting in rather than the variable autogas blends and just wear the inferior economy of the stuff.

Cant comment on it 'increasing boost'.

In relevance to this thread it'd be interesting if a manufacturer produced a dedicated LPG engine taking advantage of the fuels attributes. It may or may not surprise a few people. But in true manufacturer form they'd have to take the worst case of everything to protect the engine so it'd likely be so compromised as to be a waste of time anyway. And without widespread availability of straight propane little point.

But it'd have the factor that says heres a car you can drive out of the showroom with full warranty that goes harder than the petrol equivalent and costs a fraction of the petrol car to run. Would the Aussie public buy that?

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by RG

Maybe have a look into how much oil is left, a little research and then come back here. I'm quite sure you will find that there is a bit more oil than you think.

Ah. Someone else who remembers the first Gulf War. When we were told by George Dubbya's Dad, and other 'Experts', that we would run out of oil in 10 years...ie :the year 2000.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by z80

I did something interesting today while playing on the dyno.

I proved that a boosted engine that runs LPG and petrol actually produces more KW at the wheels when in LPG mode versus 98 RON.

It is a fact...it is 110 Octane, it is a superior fuel.

Methanol has a RON of 113
Toluene (paint thinner) has a RON of 114
Ethanol has a RON of 116
Hydrogen is up around 140

Methylated Spirits (ethanol and methanol mix) has a RON of about 115.

[z80]

Originally Posted by flappist

Methanol has a RON of 113
Toluene (paint thinner) has a RON of 114
Ethanol has a RON of 116
Hydrogen is up around 140

Methylated Spirits (ethanol and methanol mix) has a RON of about 115.

Which coloured pump at Safeway for the Hydrogen mate?
Do I still get 4 cents a litre off with my coupon?



.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by z80

Which coloured pump at Safeway for the Hydrogen mate?
Do I still get 4 cents a litre off with my coupon?



.

http://www.boc-gases.com/how_to_buy/index.asp

[RG]

Originally Posted by z80

Which coloured pump at Safeway for the Hydrogen mate?
Do I still get 4 cents a litre off with my coupon?



.

The one next to the 110ron LPG pump at Safeway.

[torbirdie]

Im sure that most people still dont buy them because of the perceived safety and performance problems.

The fuel supply issue is real though and hence why the car makers arent going to give us a car that runs lpg only and a high compression ratio engine.

I drive lpg cars but Id be hesitant to recommend them to people if they want fuss free motoring.

People buy new modern cars because they are reliable and designed to be that way. Fit an lpg system and suddenly you have got a whole lot more to go wrong.

People who are not into cars dont need to to go and visit lpg "specialists" to sort out niggly problems and be fed bs or need to take it somewhere else to be serviced etc.
Perfect installs that never need attention, are not the norm

[Stoney!]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Amen brother

No not Amen what so ever, Diesel is by far one of the better technologies For larger vehicles including large family sedans, wagons and SUV's because of their buck loads of torque, and fantastic economy. You might attempt to come back with LPG may use more fuel but its better value, but you don't just buy diesels for running costs, you buy it for is amazing drivability.

Stoney!

[Mr Hardware]

Stoney, i have an 08 Triton TuboDiseasel work truck. That ain't amazing driveability. And 12L/100klms mixed driving! With no load! What a joke!
If diseasels were fantastically economical you'd see the worlds biggest tightarses using them, ie taxi operators. That just doesn't happen, because it's not true. LPG is king and always will be king for people who want the lowest TCO.

And diseasels would do a lot better if they didn't sound like they had a timing chain rattle, rooted bearings and several knocks all at once. In short, diseasels sound shitty, have no go unless you've got a snail strapped to it and still chew through enough fuel to make you cry at the pump.

[MO]

Well if thats the case why do Mercedes,Audi and Peugot have them and I'm working off memory here but wasn't one of the fastest and reliable cars at Le Mans a diesel.

[Mr Hardware]

Wait on, if what is the case?

[MO]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Wait on, if what is the case?

In particular the second paragraph of your last post.
"snail strapped on...noisey,shitty etc.."

[MO]

Just did a quick google Audi diesels won Le Mans five years in a row this year Peugot won with a diesel.
So if diesels are so bad and lpg is so good how come there are no lpg powered Le Mans race cars.
The makers of Mercedes,Audi and Peugot would not race them or put them in the production street cars if they weren't any good and didn't sell.

[Road_Warrior]

Probably because the Europeans all have a massive boner for Diesel cars because of its lower pump price over there (no excise/road tax IIRC) and more widespread fitment to shitty ding/kraut/frog econoboxes

Also LPG over there is promotes heavily as a fleet/transport industry fuel - not sure of its availability for private vehicle use like it is here.