Countdown to new LPG I6 - Page 6

Buntz · 25-03-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

There is currently only ONE LPG system in the world that is a true DIRECT injection system and that is the ICOM JTG HP system which is yet to be released in Australia. Holden are using either IMPCO-BRC or Orbital for their next LPG engine. One would hazard a guess that the Alloytec 3.6L V6 will live on in this new LPG guise.

And it won't be as good as the Ford.

In the current situation with petrol prices... LPG is more important than EcoBoost. I'm glad Ford recognised this.

Buntz · 25-03-2011, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimka100

A Question:

What is the octane rating of GAS in Australia? Is there a particular standard for that fuel? What is the quality/consistency level of GAS fuel in Australia?

A while back I used to fill up with 95 octane with added ethanol petrol from one of the local Taxi United petrol stations … after seeing what it did to my fuel filter my mechanic said to never go to these petrol stations again … I never did and never had an issue since … I wonder if GAS will be good from these stations?

Thanks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogas

90 to 110. Not sure what you mean about the quality consistency though. It's all the same really. And there aren't different grades.

PoweredByCNG · 25-03-2011, 01:28 PM

There is no standard for LPG quality in Australia. This means that the quality of LPG can vary significantly from batch to batch. Modern injection systems can adjust to varying gas quality using feedback from engine sensors. Poor gas quality can lead to knocking which can cause damage to the engine if the engine is not equipped with a knock sensor.

PoweredByCNG · 25-03-2011, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

And it won't be as good as the Ford.

You'll probably find that Holden will use the High Output version of the 3.6L V6 for the new LPG variation. This should give 195kW and 340Nm but this is still short of what the Ford engine will produce, particular in regards to torque output at low RPM. In August 2009, I was quoted 200kW and 400Nm for the FG I6 Dedicated LPI.

**Polyal** · 25-03-2011, 01:40 PM

Yeap at a minimum those are the figures I have heard to too...once she was brought down

Cant wait for the official release, will be interesting how Ford play it.

Buntz · 25-03-2011, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

You'll probably find that Holden will use the High Output version of the 3.6L V6 for the new LPG variation. This should give 195kW and 340Nm but this is still short of what the Ford engine will produce, particular in regards to torque output at low RPM. In August 2009, I was quoted 200kW and 400Nm for the FG I6 Dedicated LPI.

I have never found anything High Output about Holden's V6's. But I'm guessing that their first attempt won't meet Petrol parity like Falcon's will. But LPI is gonna be such a winner for Ford Oz.

Hopefully they can do an LPI Territory.

Bossxr8 · 25-03-2011, 07:13 PM

I heard that once cranked up to see what happened the LPi engine blew the standard I6 diff, and they were looking into the possibility of using the turbo/V8 diff but was knocked back due to extra costs. It was detuned to around what the standard petrol makes.

LPG pistons are a nice piece of gear, fully floating like the turbo pistons and higher comp. Knock sensors are used too unlike previous BF/FG E-Gas engines.

Just so you know in regard to the can of sealant that may be used by Ford, Holden already do this, when you order a VE you can choose either a space saver or the sealant as an economy option to reduce weight. So its nothing new. Holden have been doing this for a year or 2.

Buntz · 25-03-2011, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I heard that once cranked up to see what happened the LPi engine blew the standard I6 diff, and they were looking into the possibility of using the turbo/V8 diff but was knocked back due to extra costs. It was detuned to around what the standard petrol makes.

LPG pistons are a nice piece of gear, fully floating like the turbo pistons and higher comp. Knock sensors are used too unlike previous BF/FG E-Gas engines.

Serious? .....

Far out. Performance LPG for the future maybe? E-Gas XR6?

Hell... can you turbo LPI?

PoweredByCNG · 25-03-2011, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

I have never found anything High Output about Holden's V6's. But I'm guessing that their first attempt won't meet Petrol parity like Falcon's will. But LPI is gonna be such a winner for Ford Oz.

Standard output = 175kW/320Nm

High output = 195kW/340Nm

Joe5619 · 25-03-2011, 07:23 PM

Will this system by available in manual?

PoweredByCNG · 25-03-2011, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Serious? .....

Yeah, I was told that in unoptimised form, the engine was putting out quite a bit more power than the petrol form under the same conditions. If Ford/Orbital tone the engine down to petrol performance figures, expect to see further reductions in fuel consumption and also expect the torque band to stretch practically right across the rev range.

Buntz · 25-03-2011, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Yeah, I was told that in unoptimised form, the engine was putting out quite a bit more power than the petrol form under the same conditions. If Ford/Orbital tone the engine down to petrol performance figures, expect to see further reductions in fuel consumption and also expect the torque band to stretch practically right across the rev range.

Yeah but still. Gimme that LPG performance variant.

I read on wikipedia that LPI brings substantial performance improvements... but I had no idea.

If this package is everything Ford's toting about. Then it's gonna be super popular. And would probably explain poor Falcon sales at the moment.

Paxton · 25-03-2011, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I heard that once cranked up to see what happened the LPi engine blew the standard I6 diff, and they were looking into the possibility of using the turbo/V8 diff but was knocked back due to extra costs. It was detuned to around what the standard petrol makes.

LPG pistons are a nice piece of gear, fully floating like the turbo pistons and higher comp. Knock sensors are used too unlike previous BF/FG E-Gas engines.

Just so you know in regard to the can of sealant that may be used by Ford, Holden already do this, when you order a VE you can choose either a space saver or the sealant as an economy option to reduce weight. So its nothing new. Holden have been doing this for a year or 2.

Yup, they're detuned. I knew that power would be excellent on the LPI engine, but the real tell will be torque. It will be huge.

All Ford have to do is market the thing, but knowing Ford, that won't happen.

Buntz · 25-03-2011, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton

All Ford have to do is market the thing, but knowing Ford, that won't happen.

Maybe we should write them a letter... reminding them.

phillyc · 25-03-2011, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Yeah, I was told that in unoptimised form, the engine was putting out quite a bit more power than the petrol form under the same conditions. If Ford/Orbital tone the engine down to petrol performance figures, expect to see further reductions in fuel consumption and also expect the torque band to stretch practically right across the rev range.

Yeah, i mentioned this a few pages back in this thread.

Quote:

Add the gain of 5-6% economy by going to the the 6spd ZF, and a further gain of 15-20% with better LPi / catalyst tech we could see a 11.x-12.xL/100km combined result. Depending as much as anything on the outputs that they come up with.

Outputs could be 200kW/420Nm. Which is what the FG I6 is capable of on 98 octane according to / interpreting an early press release by Ford.

I'm loving hearing that the LPi I6 is getting some great pistons really specific / designed to suit LPG. Adding knock sensors will allow the use of higher compression, which aids efficiency / BSFC. But it also means that the variability of gas mentioned in this thread will be catered for whilst still allowing maximum efficiency through the best timing available. It also means it doesn't need to run as rich under large / full throttle conditions.

The problem will be, if there is one. The ability of Ford to actually market.

jpd80 · 25-03-2011, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton

Yup, they're detuned. I knew that power would be excellent on the LPI engine, but the real tell will be torque. It will be huge.

All Ford have to do is market the thing, but knowing Ford, that won't happen.

One can only imagine what a 3.7 V6 LPI would have been like with the extra Hp potential...
230-240 Kw would have been possible without blowing diffs....

Buntz · 25-03-2011, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

One can only imagine what a 3.7 V6 LPI would have been like with the extra Hp potential...
230-240 Kw would have been possible without blowing diffs....

That's coz the torque on 'em ain't as good. More torque is better.

But I do think your estimates may be a bit favourable.

Resurrection · 25-03-2011, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton

Yup, they're detuned. I knew that power would be excellent on the LPI engine, but the real tell will be torque. It will be huge.

All Ford have to do is market the thing, but knowing Ford, that won't happen.

They did this so a new auto trans cal wouldn't be required.

Buntz · 25-03-2011, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resurrection

They did this so a new auto trans cal wouldn't be required.

That can't be right. The ZF 6HP26 is rated to 600nm of input torque.

Road_Warrior · 25-03-2011, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resurrection

They did this so a new auto trans cal wouldn't be required.

So its an auto-only application?

How sweet would it be for Ford to release an XR6 Turbo LPI variant...all the performance you could want with the running costs of a Camry...

Buntz · 25-03-2011, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

How sweet would it be for Ford to release an XR6 Turbo LPI variant...all the performance you could want with the running costs of a Camry...

There's your ad Ford Australia.... there it is.

PoweredByCNG · 25-03-2011, 09:27 PM

Ford will have a real marketting tool on their hands when the EcoLPI is released.

If the final calibration of the LPI engine yields fuel consumption figures below 13L/100km, not only Ford they be massively undercutting the consuption of the previous E-Gas engine, but they will also be seriously undercutting the competition in every possible way.

Let's say that the final consumption figure for the new LPI engine is 12.5L/100km. That is about 25% higher than the petrol model which is rated at 9.9L/100km. This is based on a 20% fuel consumption penalty, as well as factoring in the increase weight of a long-range fuel storage cylinder.

Holden's next LPG offering will have a consumption figure not far from that of their existing LPG offering assuming that a gas-phase injection system will be used. The LPG consumption figure for Holden's current VE Commodore is 13.4L/100km (note the use of a 4-speed automatic transmission) with the additional need for petrol during startup. Worse still, while the Ford LPI engine is expected to produce at least 195kW and 391Nm (the performance figures for the petrol FG Falcon), the Holden 3.6L dual fuel V6 currently produces only 175kW and 318Nm - a very significant deficit. Lower consumption and better driveability will be possible if Holden decide to upgrade the LPG offering with a 6-speed automatic transmission as per the petrol models.

Worse still, Holden's VE Commodore Series II in the form that most private owners would purchase them has an engine that outputs 210kW and 350Nm - significantly higher than the LPG variant. It also cannot be ignored that the higher performance petrol engines use significantly less fuel - the LPG engines have a consumption penalty of over 44% (3.0L DI V6) and over 36% (3.6L DI V6) compared to the current direct injection engines.

The only way for Holden to increase the performance of their LPG offering while using gas-phase injection is to upgrade the engine to the High Output V6 (195kW). Even then, the torque figures will not be remotely exciting and more importantly, the fuel consumption penalty over the DI petrol engines will be higher still.

Paxton · 25-03-2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

So its an auto-only application?

How sweet would it be for Ford to release an XR6 Turbo LPI variant...all the performance you could want with the running costs of a Camry...

Was always going to be. The previous eGas iteration was Auto only.

Interesting Resurrection. I'd only heard that Ford detuned the I6 to keep the power levels in line with the Petrol version, not anything to do with calibrating the transmission.

Buntz · 25-03-2011, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton

Interesting Resurrection. I'd only heard that Ford detuned the I6 to keep the power levels in line with the Petrol version, not anything to do with calibrating the transmission.

Didn't make sense to me either.

PoweredByCNG · 25-03-2011, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton

Interesting Resurrection. I'd only heard that Ford detuned the I6 to keep the power levels in line with the Petrol version, not anything to do with calibrating the transmission.

Haven't heard anything about transmissions issues either. The three reasons why Ford would want to cap the power output are:

1. To match the figures of the petrol engine.

2. To improve the fuel consumption of the LPG engine.

3. To allow for future detuning if/when required.

Also, there may be emissions and parts longevity constraints as well.

Bossxr8 · 25-03-2011, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resurrection

They did this so a new auto trans cal wouldn't be required.

Being different to the petrol engine it will need a new calibration no matter what, they can't just load a petrol auto calibration into it and expect it to work 100%. It doesn't work that way, with different torque graphs and emissions tuning etc.

Detuning was for reliability of the engine and driveline.

Bossxr8 · 25-03-2011, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

That can't be right. The ZF 6HP26 is rated to 600nm of input torque.

Only the turbo and V8 versions, there is also a 450nm version for the NA 6, which is what the LPi engine will use.

jpd80 · 25-03-2011, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

That's coz the torque on 'em ain't as good. More torque is better.

But I do think your estimates may be a bit favourable.

Current 3.7 V6 puts out over 300 hp and 280 lb ft <- that's well above Holden's SIDI 3.6.
and similar torque to I-6 but with a whole lot more horsepower..

Buntz · 25-03-2011, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Current 3.7 V6 puts out over 300 hp and 280 lb ft <- that's well above Holden's SIDI 3.6.
and similar torque to I-6 but with a whole lot more horsepower..

That's probably more down to engine mapping. But the 3.7 produces it's torque a full 1000 rpm less... and less of it. Which is less economic in a sense. But then the 3.7 has an aluminium block, so it's always at an optimum operating temperature.

Good engine none the less. But the 3.5 would probably become standard on the Falcon. A sad day indeed. And it could produce less power because they fit SS exhausts on US models.

EDIT: Have you checked out all the models on the Ford NA website.. let alone all the different engine configs? You really see who need the 'One Ford' treatment the most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Only the turbo and V8 versions, there is also a 450nm version for the NA 6, which is what the LPi engine will use.

Still? They're both old boxes. I don't know why the 6HP26 isn't standard across the range.

HULK EF · 25-03-2011, 11:36 PM

WOW.. The future possibilities of ford NA 6's winning dyno comps on LPG...

exciting times if the above threads are right..