Ford Delivers Outstanding Value with FG Falcon MkII

[Smoke Pursuit]

Diesel would have been a better option for Falcon too, and woudl have saved Ford a packet load on the Ecoboost / Ecolpi gas....


Going by what the Territory does a diesel falcon would have been good for mid to high 5's per hundred... Diesel is where the hype is at, not LPG thats for sure (how many other manufactures build LPG cars??).

Just seems silly to me to run the extra capability of LPG when you already had the diesels on the line.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Seeing as the SUV market is 50% diesel you would think it was a smarter choice then trying to change public perception. ATM the terri is selling 70% diesels so their choice would be justified.

Wish Gorman didn't can the project back when he was the president.

Diesel Territory sales are now 80 - 85%...

Petrols are going to depreciate quick at that rate, no one will want them.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Wish Gorman didn't can the project back when he was the president.

He was in a heck of a spot - Diesel Territory of FG Falcon, you chose......

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by jpd80

At just 329 sales last month, Mondeo isn't a Falcon <anything> replacement ....

No but it does have a diesel. I don't see diesels really killing the passenger market and the R&D to get one in the Falcon (especially with the I6 still in the engine bay) wouldn't justify the sales.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by vztrt

No but it does have a diesel. I don't see diesels really killing the passenger market and the R&D to get one in the Falcon (especially with the I6 still in the engine bay) wouldn't justify the sales.

It would if Ford went back to the government and asked for funding...
a large car with 6.5 l/100 km is a dead set shoe in with the great unwashed...

The real problem is if it did work, what becomes of I-6 production....

What Ford is trying to do is spread the technologies in areas that are of primary need:
1) Territory needed a diesel five years ago
2) Falcon needed EcoLPI two years ago ( we've done to death hold up due to I-6 death/revival)
3) Ecoboost technology offered to FoA as a way of increasing sales without using diesel.

By putting tech in the right vehicles, Ford can ask more for them and still have access
to widen the usage later if markets ask for more engine options...

Increasing sales...not replacing them.

[jpd80]

Counterpoint,
Where does this leave Holden, how do they respond to Falcon EcoLPI and Ecoboost?

[prydey]

there was a graph posted in one of the sales threads and diesel has a very small uptake with private buyers in anything other than suv/4wd.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

there was a graph posted in one of the sales threads and diesel has a very small uptake with private buyers in anything other than suv/4wd.

And why has diesel been so successful in SUVs and trucks.

Weight

The fuel economy advantage in small cars isn't enough to drive sales without expensive fuel,
large cars are heavy enough to show significant improvement in fuel economy and savings to owners.

The difference is that Ford chose to go with EcoLPI for fleets and Ecoboost to cover the majority
of sales in the petrol market. Diesel may work but only if fuel prices start rising sharply.
I'm seeing a lot of "insurance" in having technologies available to cover a lot of scenarios...

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Counterpoint,
Where does this leave Holden, how do they respond to Falcon EcoLPI and Ecoboost?

They do have an LPG Holden. Not as good as LPi and they have no intention of going down that route.

For ecoboost one would say the cruze and the 3L SIDIDI.

[Road_Warrior]

Nah their LPI is still yet to hit the streets apparently.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Counterpoint,
Where does this leave Holden, how do they respond to Falcon EcoLPI and Ecoboost?

Ford LPG is better, sounds like Holden will have better packaging though. Dedicated LPG Commodore is good for Falcon as it will draw buyers in hopefully increasing the LPG market rather than taking away sales. Ford needs competitors with LPG to help with market awareness.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2578D5001E61C2

LPG to return to Aussie wagon as Holden engineers a space-saver tank for Commodore22 July 2011
By RON HAMMERTON
A NEW dedicated LPG system for Holden’s Commodore range will dispense with the conventional space-sapping boot-mounted tank, not only paving the way for a return to LPG in the Sportwagon but potentially giving sedan and ute models a cargo advantage over Ford’s new EcoLPi Falcon and aftermarket systems.

The Holden Eco-branded system – mostly engineered in-house – is set to get a tank tucked under the back of the car when it replaces the current dual-fuel system in the New Year.

Insiders say the new LPG Commodores will lose no boot space, unlike Ford’s just-released Falcon EcoLPi sedan, which has a shallower boot than petrol models but also loses the full-size spare wheel as standard equipment.

Although Holden is yet to spell out details of its system, GoAuto understands it will retain gaseous multi-point injection, unlike the Orbital liquid injection system adopted by Ford for the Falcon and Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) for its E3 range.

Again available only with the Port Melbourne-made 3.6-litre V6, the dedicated system tuned only for LPG instead of the compromised set-up for both petrol and LPG will generate more power and torque than the current 175kW/318Nm petrol/LPG engine.

However, it is unclear if the new LPG Commodores will challenge the 198kW/409Nm outputs Ford has extracted from its 4.0-litre EcoLPi engine, which became an option across the Falcon range this month

Left: Current Commodore LPG badge. Below: Ford Falcon EcoLPi.

Holden also is expected to bin the old four-speed automatic transmission – a hangover from the previous-generation Commodore – and step up to a six-speed auto to bring it in line with other Commodore models and match Ford’s step up to a ZF six-speed self-shifter for its EcoLPi range.

The improved transmission will not only bring the LPG Commodore into the 21st century in terms of driveability but also improve fuel economy from the current 13.4 litres per 100km and perhaps match the new EcoLPi Falcon XT’s 12.5L/100km.

The current Holden LPG engine – available only on the entry-level Omega and mid-range Berlina – is based on the original Alloytec 3.6-litre V6 introduced in dual-fuel form on the previous-generation VZ Commodore in 2005.

Back then, the system was also available in the Commodore wagon, thanks to a donut-shaped LPG tank that took the place of the spare wheel under the cargo floor. The spare wheel was instead mounted against one side of the luggage compartment.

The original petrol tank was also retained, with the engine capable of switching between the two fuels for flexibility and extended range.

With the arrival of the VE model in 2006, the same dual-fuel engine continued in LPG Commodore sedans and utes that also retained the traditional cylindrical steel LPG tank in the sedan’s boot and ute’s rear tray – but LPG was discontinued in the new Sportwagon due to packaging issues.

Now, Holden and its LPG tank supplier appear to have engineered a solution with a gas tank mounted under the back of the Commodore, using the space usually occupied by the petrol tank and apparently without encroaching on boot space.

This solution means all three Commodore body styles – sedan, wagon and ute – can accept the new tank arrangement without space penalty in cargo areas.

Holden will become the only local manufacturer to offer an LPG-equipped wagon, as Ford has discontinued its Falcon wagon and does not offer an LPG Territory. This will give Holden an advantage with fleet buyers.

The Falcon EcoLPi’s tank encroaches on boot space of the sedan and tray of the ute. In the sedan, the LPG tank is mounted under the floor of the boot, absorbing the space of the spare wheel and raising the floor level to create a shallower boot.

To try to free up room, Ford has dispensed with the full-sized spare wheel as standard equipment, instead offering a puncture-repair ‘goo’ can or no-cost space saver spare. If owners insist on the full-size spare, they can have it, but luggage space is further restricted.

It is unclear if Holden will follow a similar route with the spare wheel, but it is expected to match Ford’s spread of LPG across the model range.

Insiders say Holden’s new LPG system will be offered beyond the current Omega and Berlina variants, probably spreading to the SV6, Calais and Caprice to fall in line with Ford’s EcoLPi availability on G6E and XR6 Falcons.

Holden’s current dual-fuel option will continue until the arrival of the new system in early 2012, avoiding the LPG model drought experienced by Ford.

In Ford’s case, its previous system could not achieve the Euro 4 emissions standards that came into force in mid-2010, meaning Ford dealers had to do without an LPG alternative for several months until the belated arrival of EcoLPi this month.

Holden is expected to start rolling out its pre-launch publicity campaign for the Eco LPG system from September or October of this year.

The company’s senior product communications manager Jonathan Rose told GoAuto that Holden was starting its campaign early because it would take time to raise awareness among consumers about the benefits of the new LPG system.

As GoAuto reported in January, Holden’s new gaseous dedicated LPG system – replacing the current delivery system supplied by Impco – is believed to be a stop-gap until its own liquid injection system is ready, perhaps with the arrival of the VF Commodore from about 2014.

[Bossxr8]

Holdens LPG system is just a single fuel version of the current dual fuel setup, using the crappy old non DI 3.6. They might optimise it a bit for LPG but it will still be pretty gutless.

As for diesels, they only really sell in numbers in SUV's, they don't sell much in passenger vehicles.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holdens LPG system is just a single fuel version of the current dual fuel setup, using the crappy old non DI 3.6. They might optimise it a bit for LPG but it will still be pretty gutless.

As for diesels, they only really sell in numbers in SUV's, they don't sell much in passenger vehicles.

No one has tried a large passenger vehicle where the costs and savings are more noticable..

I agree with Ecoboost and EcoLPI, they are both good moves but would like to see a V6 diesel as well,
it took Ford so long to get a diesel territory, I'd hate for them to miss getting the drop on Holden
with a diesel Falcon...it's just over there in the Territory, so near yet so far...

Especially while Holden clings to V8 sales, without them they are imperiled
but Ford seeking out fuel efficient engines drought proofs the car against
high fuel prices, something that will finish the V8 Commodore..

[jpd80]

Does anyone have pictures of Falcon's new interior?

[TC200six]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Does anyone have pictures of Falcon's new interior?

The best I could find so far is a picture of the dash in the PDF brochure which you have already seen http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/BlobS...lob&blobkey=id

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by TC200six

The best I could find so far is a picture of the dash in the PDF brochure which you have already seen http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/BlobS...lob&blobkey=id

Thank you, now it looks like this:

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holdens LPG system is just a single fuel version of the current dual fuel setup, using the crappy old non DI 3.6. They might optimise it a bit for LPG but it will still be pretty gutless.

As for diesels, they only really sell in numbers in SUV's, they don't sell much in passenger vehicles.

BMW 3 Series & 5 Series Diesels would prove you wrong there.. Likewise with MBENZ C Class Diesel and E Class Diesel.. The new C250 is apparently the car to own atm!

Diesels more up market then LPG...

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

BMW 3 Series & 5 Series Diesels would prove you wrong there.. Likewise with MBENZ C Class Diesel and E Class Diesel.. The new C250 is apparently the car to own atm!

Diesels more up market then LPG...

Even though LPG is cleaner, cheaper and has more potential performance wise.

Upmarket because the Euro brands use it? What a stupid world we live in, but did I really have to state the obvious?

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

BMW 3 Series & 5 Series Diesels would prove you wrong there.. Likewise with MBENZ C Class Diesel and E Class Diesel.. The new C250 is apparently the car to own atm!

Diesels more up market then LPG...

Diesel also suits the tradional attributes of a large Aussie car, low down torque for effortless driving over long distances, good for cargo carrying and towing big loads and good for all those rural buyers who have diesel in veins.

If any passenger car ever suited diesel it would be Falcon.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by martyk54

Even though LPG is cleaner, cheaper and has more potential performance wise.

Upmarket because the Euro brands use it? What a stupid world we live in, but did I really have to state the obvious?

They are not the only reasons its better.. Theres alot places in australia that still dont supply LPG...

A Diesel falcon at 5.5 litres per hundred compared to an Lpilpg at 12.6 per hundred is about $7 extra per 1000 kms to run... In saying that however you could potentially get an extra 538 odd kms out of the diesel with a 68 litre tank with a total distance of aprox 1236 kms, this is a big selling point on the new Territory as when you ammortise the extra cost of diesel to start with and look at the kms travelled over the life of the car it typcially takes 4 years to repay the extra cost of diesel, but due to the convenience people are still opting for the diesel (just like myself).

More to this they would have been able to make the diesel cheaper on both the Falcon and Territory due to a bigger spread of capital write down through both cars having the diesel option. Instead of having 750 - 850 V6 diesels coming out a month they would have potentially had 2000 +. They would have also saved a fair amount of coin in not producing ecolpi or ecoboost, 2 motors which they have had to put a considerable amount of R&D into, and 2 motors which will be competing with one another especially in the fleet sector. For a company placed where it is atm you would think they would have thought that through a little more... It sounds like no one was commited to any one option (ecolpi, diesel and ecoboost) so they decided to have a go at all 3, all of which will be detrimental to their Australian operations if you ask me. They may aswell have went back to building wagons and Fairlanes too while they were at it... Downsize the fleet but increase engine variants...

A Turbo diesel Falcon ute would have been the bomb too! Holy smokes batman watch out ranger 4x2.

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

They are not the only reasons its better.. Theres alot places in australia that still dont supply LPG...

A Diesel falcon at 5.5 litres per hundred compared to an Lpilpg at 12.6 per hundred is about $7 extra per 1000 kms to run... In saying that however you could potentially get an extra 538 odd kms out of the diesel with a 68 litre tank with a total distance of aprox 1236 kms, this is a big selling point on the new Territory as when you ammortise the extra cost of diesel to start with and look at the kms travelled over the life of the car it typcially takes 4 years to repay the extra cost of diesel, but due to the convenience people are still opting for the diesel (just like myself).

More to this they would have been able to make the diesel cheaper on both the Falcon and Territory due to a bigger spread of capital write down through both cars having the diesel option. Instead of having 750 - 850 V6 diesels coming out a month they would have potentially had 2000 +. They would have also saved a fair amount of coin in not producing ecolpi or ecoboost, 2 motors which they have had to put a considerable amount of R&D into, and 2 motors which will be competing with one another especially in the fleet sector. For a company placed where it is atm you would think they would have thought that through a little more... It sounds like no one was commited to any one option (ecolpi, diesel and ecoboost) so they decided to have a go at all 3, all of which will be detrimental to their Australian operations if you ask me. They may aswell have went back to building wagons and Fairlanes too while they were at it... Downsize the fleet but increase engine variants...

A Turbo diesel Falcon ute would have been the bomb too! Holy smokes batman watch out ranger 4x2.

I see your point regarding Fords inability to commit to one economical option, a fair one. Being the performance motor enthusiast I am though, I just dislike driving diesel cars. They're dull and boring to me. Like I said, I'd take an injected LPG engine over diesel any day if economy was a factor. Apart from CO2, diesels are still dirty. I guess while the propaganda for global warming/CO2 is in full swing, who really cares right?

[spvd02]

As pointed out by reviews, the Territory diesel is not fast. That's pretty much due to the fact it's a diesel. Because it's slow revving, the much lighter Falcon will be no quicker with the diesel than a Territory.

Diesels ARE dirty: no one seems to have any idea what particle emissions are and what they will do to your health, esp. if everyone drives a diesel.

ecoboost would be more appealing than diesel, as it offers performance and economy, with lower emissions. Ford's neat little video on ecoboost technology demonstrates its advantages:

http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/Satel...ller&site=FOA#

In fact, the low-end torque of a diesel is pretty much all hype, as it has strong low-mid range torque, but not as strong down low as ecoboost, or even an XR6T petrol engine. The so called superb bottom end torque only seems so impressive because of the lack of top-end. It's a perception thing.

Give me anything but a diesel. Our SY Territory AWD manages close to 10L/100km on the highway which is not far off many diesels similar in size. 14L/100km driving around town is also not bad. It's smoother than a diesel, and offers more performance. It's not thirsty like everyone seems to think. Sure it will drink if you put your boot in, but only because there's more performance on offer: diesel is not able to burn fast, and therefore cannot offer that kind of performance, making it boring.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

More to this they would have been able to make the diesel cheaper on both the Falcon and Territory due to a bigger spread of capital write down through both cars having the diesel option. Instead of having 750 - 850 V6 diesels coming out a month they would have potentially had 2000 +. They would have also saved a fair amount of coin in not producing ecolpi or ecoboost, 2 motors which they have had to put a considerable amount of R&D into, and 2 motors which will be competing with one another especially in the fleet sector. For a company placed where it is atm you would think they would have thought that through a little more...

So Ford couldn't get the V6 petrol in the Falcon because of the huge cost...but a V6 diesel would have been cheap??

Originally Posted by DASH GT

A Turbo diesel Falcon ute would have been the bomb too! Holy smokes batman watch out ranger 4x2.

Ranger would win as the diesel is cheaper then the base model Falcon Ute.

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holdens LPG system is just a single fuel version of the current dual fuel setup, using the crappy old non DI 3.6. They might optimise it a bit for LPG but it will still be pretty gutless.

The best that they would probably be able to come up with is a dedicated LPG version of the High Output V6 with variable valve timing on both intake and exhaust that was found on the SV6 and Calais models up to MY09.5. The last port injected High Output Alloytec engine produced 195kW @ 6500rpm and 340Nm @ 2600rpm which in terms of torque is well short of what the Ford I6 can effortly produce.

Assuming that Holden engineers 12:1 compression ratio pistons for that particular engine (the petrol version has a 10.2:1 compression ratio), the best that they will be able to come up with, considering the target fuel consumption figures and the sequential gas injection system (as opposed to liquid phase injection), would be to match the petrol engine's performance.

Holden's dedicated LPG engine will have two MAJOR disadvantages - the fuel delivery system and the base engine. The use of liquid phase injection as well as the torquey I6 engine by Ford will put them at a MASSIVE advantage when it comes to future emissions regulation certification and fuel consumption optimisation opportunities.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by vztrt

So Ford couldn't get the V6 petrol in the Falcon because of the huge cost...but a V6 diesel would have been cheap??

No, it was cheaper to continue with the I-6 rather than switch to the V6
the V6 Duratec didn't fit without changes to spring aprons and a bonnet bulge...

The V6 diesel territory has been delayed approximately four to five years due to tight budgets,
the government actually pitched in $40 million to assist with V6 diesel, EcoLPI and Ecoboost.

Ranger would win as the diesel is cheaper then the base model Falcon Ute.

Same market segment but both vehicles add sales due to different buyer demographics.
Obviously Ford is wanting to minimize internal competition by accentuating the differences.

[jpd80]

If it came down to a choice of losing badly on dodgy export deals or flooding the market
with taxis and fleet vehicles, then I would rather Ford do the latter and create as many
local jobs as possible. Offering 30% discount on great products to fleets has to be a better
pass time than trying to appease difficult US buyers who want basically fleet prices anyway...

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by vztrt

So Ford couldn't get the V6 petrol in the Falcon because of the huge cost...but a V6 diesel would have been cheap??




Ranger would win as the diesel is cheaper then the base model Falcon Ute.

Theres alot of maybes but at the end of the day I still think they would have been better off with 1 eco motor across the range, theres savings in having to stock different parts, R & D and future upgrades as well dont forget.

The other cool thing would have been EPAS for Falcon which would have meant they could have droped the 5.0 in the XR8...

As for Falcon ute verse Ranger diesel they could have potentially said no ranger 4x2 tray backs for Australia, just keeping ranger for Dual cab / 4x4 only which would have meant they could have allocated more dual cabs (the big sellers).

I reckon a Falcon diesel would have nearly brought Falcon back to number 1... Simply because diesel has such a strong bearing on peoples mindset... When people think LPG they think dirty old taxi.

[Polyal]

I agree a TDi falcon would be a winner, IMO most of the euro's sell well because they are in fact diesel, not particularly because they are "better".

My only worry would be how that effects the I6 production..it must have taken a hit with the Tezz sales so I think they will hold off on TDi falcon until the next platform is sorted.

Which is a shame because if the I6 is going to go, then why stuff around, get some sales while its still in vogue. (but I can see how they might want to protect jobs until that time, or until they figure out what else they can make there?)

[jpd80]

Not many people know that FoA was in the running for supplying the V6 Duratecs
but the collapse of the Magnesium plant project in Central Queensland robbed them of their
supply base and as such the alternative supplier put their cost avove Nth America.

What could have been....

[Windsor220]

Whoever said diesels were dirty is wrong. These days with particulate filters they are better than petrol.