FIRST PICS!!! VE & WM UNCOVERED!!!

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by McobraR

The AU actually cost about 700mil. And when considering that the BA cost 500mil to improve a 700mil dollar project, it was pretty obvious that the BA was gonna be good and had to succeed.
What i want to kno is how much will the Orion project cost? With Ford US losing heaps of money, its kinda hard to say that it'll be close to holdens 1billion. Rumours tho are saying the Orion is an evolution of the BA/BF, which i dont think is a real good thing, if its a new model, u expect it to be all new.

Orion might be a sheet matel change like the VY was. VY costed around 220 million according to wheels and motor just before it was released. What do they really have to change from the BA mechanical wise? They covered all the mechanical stuff on BA such as the DOHC I6, Control blade IRS, BOSS V8 ect. All they have to do now is improve it over time. I know they will further improve ride quality, handling, fuel consumption and NVH though.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Orion might be a sheet matel change like the VY was. VY costed around 220 million according to wheels and motor just before it was released. What do they really have to change from the BA mechanical wise? They covered all the mechanical stuff on BA such as the DOHC I6, Control blade IRS, BOSS V8 ect. All they have to do now is improve it over time. I know they will further improve ride quality, handling, fuel consumption and NVH though.

Not even close. The body will be all new and so will the interior. Wheels believes Ford will spend 800 million for Orion. As mechanicals were significantly upgraded for BA they will only be upgraded for Orion. No new engines.

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Not even close. The body will be all new and so will the interior. Wheels believes Ford will spend 800 million for Orion. As mechanicals were significantly upgraded for BA they will only be upgraded for Orion. No new engines.

So does that mean Orion doesn't get the new large Capacity v8 thats rumoured to be released at the Superbowl?

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Not even close. The body will be all new and so will the interior. Wheels believes Ford will spend 800 million for Orion. As mechanicals were significantly upgraded for BA they will only be upgraded for Orion. No new engines.

The body and the intorior were all new for the VY. Well most of the body anyway...

But I can't see how the Orion will cost anywhere near 800 million. Not that I know anything about running a Car manufacturer, but in relative terms, most of the mechanical R&D would have been done on the BA? Only improvements from from here on in.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

So does that mean Orion doesn't get the new large Capacity v8 thats rumoured to be released at the Superbowl?

Large capacity V8s? New to me... Got more info?

[McobraR]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

So does that mean Orion doesn't get the new large Capacity v8 thats rumoured to be released at the Superbowl?

u talkin about the hurricane 6.2L V8. Speculation sees it releasing in 2008 at the earliest (probably second half)! And since the Orion is set to release about March 2008, i highly doubt we'll see that engine in the falc. It might not even fit under the bonnet.

[Falcon_Power_06]

even though it dosnt look great they will probably bring it out with so much power that the sheep will buy for cheep power rather than a ford which has looks but not as much power.

[Dezza]

Originally Posted by Cobra

The body and the intorior were all new for the VY. Well most of the body anyway...

But I can't see how the Orion will cost anywhere near 800 million. Not that I know anything about running a Car manufacturer, but in relative terms, most of the mechanical R&D would have been done on the BA? Only improvements from from here on in.

The front and rear of the body were new for the VY. The whole middle section was carryover VT-VX (with the exception of the mirrors). As for the interior, VY picked up a completely new dash but the doortrims were still the old VT-VX shape. The dash also used a different type of plastic to the old one, which meant on the VY, the combination of new dash with old doortrims created a huge amount of inconsistency to the feel of the plastics.

As for Orion, it will be a brand new car, not a facelift of the BF. The body will be completely different, as will the interior. The BA was simply a facelift for the AU, but a far more extreme one than the VX to VY facelift. The BA/BF still use the AU doors, but just about everything else changed. This includes the entire interior which included new doortrims, unlike Commodore. The fact is, the a 2006 BF Falcon is still based on the AU that came out in 1998, just like the 2006 VZ Commodore still dates back to a 1997 VT. The Orion will finally get rid of the AU doors, just like the VE gets rid of the entire VT midsection. That's the scenario.

[ClevlndStemer]

Originally Posted by Falcon_Power_06

even though it dosnt look great they will probably bring it out with so much power that the sheep will buy for cheep power rather than a ford which has looks but not as much power.

funniest comment of the thread so far :togo:

looks are subjective based on personal tastes so what you like may not appeal to anyone else. As for the sheep comment hmmm same could be said for all the blue oval people who will only ever buy a ford no matter how bad it is. works both ways.

[Blitz_]

Originally Posted by McobraR

The AU actually cost about 700mil. And when considering that the BA cost 500mil to improve a 700mil dollar project, it was pretty obvious that the BA was gonna be good and had to succeed.
What i want to kno is how much will the Orion project cost? With Ford US losing heaps of money, its kinda hard to say that it'll be close to holdens 1billion. Rumours tho are saying the Orion is an evolution of the BA/BF, which i dont think is a real good thing, if its a new model, u expect it to be all new.

Only ford north america is in any realy trouble, and even then this should not greatly affect funding for Australian production - it hasn't before. Ford NA announched not too long ago more funding for Australian production plants and new designs which will *hopefully* mean exporting the falcon or the territory to more countries other than south africa and what not. Orion, my guess, will be totally new, although carry over design cue's for the sake of keeping a real tradesman ute in the lineup. Some say something like the new mondeo, some say the Ford concept taht was released a while ago, forgot the name, had heavy influences from Aston and Jag. Im expecting design cues from both the beforementioned manufacturers, it will be good to see Ford flex some muscle and grab some great design idea's from its sister companies. Expect something alot more sports based, with the territory being more focused on family needs (if it sorts out fuel consumption)

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by blutura

LOL, I don't even know where to start on this comment. LOL

the VT was a slightly modified version of the Opel Omega B, which was released in Europe in 1993 - 4 years prior to the VT being released here.

Opel Omega B


Opel Omega B Wagon


Incidentally, pretty much every commodore has been only a slightly modified version of the Omega, so I would hardly call the VT or any other commodore a 'ballsy' design.

Likewise, I wouldn't call the SSX or Effijy ballsy designs either. Both were purely showcars designed to distract Joe Public from the BA range which was commanding a lot more attention than the VY range at the various motorshows.

I also would not call the Territory a ballsy design AT ALL. Its a very safe design. After creating something truely fresh and forward thinking in the AU, only to have it outsold by the very safe VT, Ford wasn't going to take any chances with the design of their next big thing.

Finally, I don't understand why people continually call the AU a flop. It consistently sold between 4500 and 5500 a month (which is more than the BF and VZ are selling at the moment) over its 4 year life, introduced a number of firsts in Australian built cars including standard CD player and front power windows on base models and 16" wheels on base models and provided a fantastic base on which the BA was built. It was NOT a flop. Less successful than hoped, yes, but definitely not a flop.



What on earth makes you think that Holden are going to go to all the trouble and expense of pressing panels for the VE, only to throw them away and press a batch of new ones in 2 years time? Panel stamping is damn expensive!

You say that is a 93 model??? This is a 2002 model. Trust me the Opel fight never ends because it's a on going never ending battle of this and that, No one wins on it there is so much more then looks about the 2. What you see in the pics is if thats a 10 year plus old car then it hasn't changed very much. It really offers no help into VY-VZ in design, I thought we has our cars for a long time they really stretched that Opel out

Originally Posted by JEM

Where did i say it would fail? I have never questioned its ability to be a successful model. It may well be.

If you like the car Slick... buy it. Simple as that.

Guess i read about as much into your words as you did into myn?.

Originally Posted by Polyal

I think what Jem is getting at is the FACT the the VE, from those pics, which are just about all angles mind you, is just another example of Holdens lack of balls when designing.

The car is going to look dated from the start, its hardly a step forward (just talking exterior design here) from the VZ.

we dont expect them to re-create the wheel, but a little bit of progress would be nice.

I have a strong suspession (sp?) that Jem has seen a sneak peak of Orion, as a few people on the boards have, and its a much more positive move from a design point of view than what we have seen so far.

People are saying that the "official" pics are going to make it look better, but if the basic lines are not there, or are old, then that is a bit dissapointing. Anyone can put a bodykit on and tart something up for the press.

First part the BA could have been accused of that very easily.
I don't know what people are after really it's got nothing to with any model Commodore we have seen it albeit still never missed as a commodore, It will look sit and react different to any commodore we have seen before. 1 thing against it out of the box is the old cars in production Ute waggon. But if the car is as flexible as they say, Then i don't think they will be short on idea's.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by McobraR

u talkin about the hurricane 6.2L V8. Speculation sees it releasing in 2008 at the earliest (probably second half)! And since the Orion is set to release about March 2008, i highly doubt we'll see that engine in the falc. It might not even fit under the bonnet.

Wasn't there a pushrod V8 coming out? Something with DOD and a bit more muscle to fight the Chev V8's?. I thought i was Reading something about it early this year?.

[my gt]

i was in the states last year and from what i gathered around the ford stand at the new york car show was that the new falcon will look at lot like the new fusion but with a slightly different front and rear so it keeps in touch with the falcon image.

[Full Spectrum]

I know a guy that thinks the only thing that will come off the iosis is the grill air intake flared guards. All that on the Fusion might make it very Falcon.

[Blitz_]

Originally Posted by my gt

i was in the states last year and from what i gathered around the ford stand at the new york car show was that the new falcon will look at lot like the new fusion but with a slightly different front and rear so it keeps in touch with the falcon image.

if the new falcon looks like the fusion (which it wont, Australian Falcons will still keep the open grill, unlike the 3 chrome strips across it) then were in trouble, fusion looks .

[buddyforu]

Originally Posted by blutura

LOL, I don't even know where to start on this comment. LOL

the VT was a slightly modified version of the Opel Omega B, which was released in Europe in 1993 - 4 years prior to the VT being released here.

Funny how you only picked the VT out of all the other examples I pointed out... :ticking: And anyhow the ONLY things the VT had in common with the Omega was the interior grab handles and outer door skins. Thats it. Interior, most of the exterior, drivetrains and larger size were all specific to the VT. So much more than a 'slightly modified Omega' I'm sure you would agree. The VT design was far superior to the AU Falcon.

Its interesting to see that now the Commodore is on even footing with the Falcon, as in being totally designed and engineered in Australia. It will be interesting to see how things pan out over the coming years. GMNA seems so much more committed to Australia that Ford NA in plugging the Commodore into different brands and countries across the planet. Meanwhile the Falcon remains the bastard child of the Ford empire with no real input or encouragement from the States. Where does Ford NA see the Falcon 10 years from now?

Ironic as it may seem now, with the decline in large car sales continuing with the current oil crisis, the Falcon may eventually be a stretched and reworked version of an overseas (probably from the US) large car, IF it isn't given the same opportunities to be rebaged and sold overseas like the Commodore. In essence a role reversal of what we see today with the Commodore being a heavily reworked Opel. Food for thought!

:eclipsee_

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by buddyforu

Funny how you only picked the VT out of all the other examples I pointed out... :ticking: And anyhow the ONLY things the VT had in common with the Omega was the interior grab handles and outer door skins. Thats it. Interior, most of the exterior, drivetrains and larger size were all specific to the VT. So much more than a 'slightly modified Omega' I'm sure you would agree. The VT design was far superior to the AU Falcon.

Its interesting to see that now the Commodore is on even footing with the Falcon, as in being totally designed and engineered in Australia. It will be interesting to see how things pan out over the coming years. GMNA seems so much more committed to Australia that Ford NA in plugging the Commodore into different brands and countries across the planet. Meanwhile the Falcon remains the bastard child of the Ford empire with no real input or encouragement from the States. Where does Ford NA see the Falcon 10 years from now?

Ironic as it may seem now, with the decline in large car sales continuing with the current oil crisis, the Falcon may eventually be a stretched and reworked version of an overseas (probably from the US) large car, IF it isn't given the same opportunities to be rebaged and sold overseas like the Commodore. In essence a role reversal of what we see today with the Commodore being a heavily reworked Opel. Food for thought!

:eclipsee_

How on Gods name can you think that the VT is superior to the AU? Got anythnig objective there?

edit: if its wasn't for GM's engines the commodore has nothing other than subjective design differences over the falcon (AU vs VT); and even now thatsstill the case, what does it do better exactly?

And before you start shooting your mouth off, you may have read that there is a big LHD program for the falcon now, so there goes your "bastard" child theory.

A cars success ultimatetly has alot to do with sales in the end, but it certainly isn't measured by how many exports it gets. Since when is the Camry a technological beast? Christ even Lada's got exported around the world.

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

I know a guy that thinks the only thing that will come off the iosis is the grill air intake flared guards. All that on the Fusion might make it very Falcon.

OMG the fusion is a plain looking beast compared to the VE. Iosis on the other hand is hot!
Wouldnt it be funny if Fusion was the new Falcon after all the negative comments here about VE. Apparently the truth is VE is one hot looking car in the flesh. Time will tell, and in a very short time too.
I would'nt be mouthing off blindly like a lot of other Ford followers do

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by Polyal

How on Gods name can you think that the VT is superior to the AU? Got anythnig objective there?
edit: if its wasn't for GM's engines the commodore has nothing other than subjective design differences over the falcon (AU vs VT); and even now thatsstill the case, what does it do better exactly?
And before you start shooting your mouth off, you may have read that there is a big LHD program for the falcon now, so there goes your "bastard" child theory.
A cars success ultimatetly has alot to do with sales in the end, but it certainly isn't measured by how many exports it gets. Since when is the Camry a technological beast? Christ even Lada's got exported around the world.

I dont think he was "shooting his mouth off" at all so to speak. He made a statement which can be seen as objective.
You on the other hand my friend seem awfully emotional and rather over excited about what buddyforu had to say. I have owned a BA and I wouldnt be making those sorts of remarks (which are clearly not factual but rather onesided) while roasting someone else for supposedly doing the same.....

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

I dont think he was "shooting his mouth off" at all so to speak. He made a statement which can be seen as objective.
You on the other hand my friend seem awfully emotional and rather over excited about what buddyforu had to say. I have owned a BA and I wouldnt be making those sorts of remarks (which are clearly not factual but rather onesided) while roasting someone else for supposedly doing the same.....

Im not saying that the BA (or any falcon for that matter) are perfect, far from it.

My beef was that the falcon is hardly a "bastard" child, and its a good thing that it hasn't been touch (so far) by the US, but as we are now aware this will change. So its hardly a bastard child.

You may own a BA, but have you compared to a VY/Z?

People seem awfully quick to defend the commodore when its actually no better than its rivals, if not worse.

edit: o re-readin his post he did make a comment about falcon and the US, sorry overlooked that.

[my gt]

the iosis its built on a gt mustang chassis

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by Polyal

You may own a BA, but have you compared to a VY/Z?
People seem awfully quick to defend the commodore when its actually no better than its rivals, if not worse.
edit: o re-readin his post he did make a comment about falcon and the US, sorry overlooked that.

I had an XR6 N/A so a good all round handling/feeling car. I have compared to VZ SV6 to be fair and there isnt anything in it IMO. Some points for XR and some for SV. I think it comes down to personal taste not brand loyalty which at times is bloody hilarious the way some people carry on ing_sm
If I was buying a V8 I would be heading to the Red side all day and every day - Im sorry but there is no comparison. But they dont have anything like a Turbo6 and Ford have done wonders with theirs. For now....
So its with much interest all eyes are on the VE to see what new goodies are on offer and how it looks/sounds/goes etc which is great because we all get our turn no matter what camp we are in :

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

I had an XR6 N/A so a good all round handling/feeling car. I have compared to VZ SV6 to be fair and there isnt anything in it IMO. Some points for XR and some for SV. I think it comes down to personal taste not brand loyalty which at times is bloody hilarious the way some people carry on ing_sm
If I was buying a V8 I would be heading to the Red side all day and every day - Im sorry but there is no comparison. But they dont have anything like a Turbo6 and Ford have done wonders with theirs. For now....
So its with much interest all eyes are on the VE to see what new goodies are on offer and how it looks/sounds/goes etc which is great because we all get our turn no matter what camp we are in :

Well there ya go we agree on something, the LS2 whoops the boss in standard form.

There has been alot of talk about a turbo VE, but even if there is it wont have the torque of the I6, unless they do some serious work. But the way cash is I highly doubt it.

Its certainly going to be interesting when Holden finally gives the goss.

[buddyforu]

Originally Posted by Polyal

How on Gods name can you think that the VT is superior to the AU? Got anythnig objective there?

edit: if its wasn't for GM's engines the commodore has nothing other than subjective design differences over the falcon (AU vs VT); and even now thatsstill the case, what does it do better exactly?

And before you start shooting your mouth off, you may have read that there is a big LHD program for the falcon now, so there goes your "bastard" child theory.

A cars success ultimatetly has alot to do with sales in the end, but it certainly isn't measured by how many exports it gets. Since when is the Camry a technological beast? Christ even Lada's got exported around the world.

Hmm well I thought I was being objective??

People rate the design/appeal of a car as their first choice when looking at buying a car, followed closely by reliability, fuel economy, safety, resale (not necessarily in that order) et al. The fact that the VT outsold the AU so strongly from the Falcon's launch (in some months during 1999 almost 2 to 1) shows that most Australians vehemently rejected the AU's 'out there' styling in preference for the VT. Proof that the VT's design was superior, aesthetically, to the AU.

Further evidence is Ford's rush job to fix, firstly the Forte's grill (cross hatch design which first appeared on the ute) and then ditching the Forte's scalloped bonnet in favour of the Futura/Fairmont's raised bonnet with more conservitive grill on the series 2/3 AU.

As for the Orion LHD program, good on Ford, lets just hope this plan turns into a reality. A lot can change between now and 2008. Ford NA has a long history of being indicisive and cautious in regards to the Falcon's future.

And you're right, a car's (as in Australian made ones) success isn't measured by how many are exported, but it does certaintly help in short and long term profitability as well as how much money is invested in furture deveopment of the vehicle. Basically an Australian car sold only for the Australian market cannot hope to have the same level of engineering and development as an Australian car sold to an international market.

The Lada example is flawed, you only have to look at its country of origin to realise why it failed. It was designed to be cheap, minimalist transport that wasn't particularly reliable using yesterdays technology, made by a company that has limited rescources. This is quite acceptable in Russia, but not elsewhere. Definately not a world car as such.

*waits for further scathing* :

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by buddyforu

Hmm well I thought I was being objective??

People rate the design/appeal of a car as their first choice when looking at buying a car, followed closely by reliability, fuel economy, safety, resale (not necessarily in that order) et al. The fact that the VT outsold the AU so strongly from the Falcon's launch (in some months during 1999 almost 2 to 1) shows that most Australians vehemently rejected the AU's 'out there' styling in preference for the VT. Proof that the VT's design was superior, aesthetically, to the AU.

Further evidence is Ford's rush job to fix, firstly the Forte's grill (cross hatch design which first appeared on the ute) and then ditching the Forte's scalloped bonnet in favour of the Futura/Fairmont's raised bonnet with more conservitive grill on the series 2/3 AU.

As for the Orion LHD program, good on Ford, lets just hope this plan turns into a reality. A lot can change between now and 2008. Ford NA has a long history of being indicisive and cautious in regards to the Falcon's future.

And you're right, a car's (as in Australian made ones) success isn't measured by how many are exported, but it does certaintly help in short and long term profitability as well as how much money is invested in furture deveopment of the vehicle. Basically an Australian car sold only for the Australian market cannot hope to have the same level of engineering and development as an Australian car sold to an international market.

The Lada example is flawed, you only have to look at its country of origin to realise why it failed. It was designed to be cheap, minimalist transport that wasn't particularly reliable using yesterdays technology, made by a company that has limited rescources. This is quite acceptable in Russia, but not elsewhere. Definately not a world car as such.

*waits for further scathing* :

Well I actually agree on all counts...look out :

While its gone completely off topic the AU story had more to do with looks, ecause technically it was superior (except for that pesky gen3).

Exports are crucial to the existence of both companies long term, but what I was trying to get at is that just because the commodore is exported and the falcon isn't doesn't make the ford a lesser car. Exports dont equal quality.

[Franky]

Way to go if you all attempted to turn this thread into s***.

Based entirely on the pics the car looks good but it's conservative and no doubt Holden are playing safe. At the moment it would be catastropic to design a shocker like the AU.

I don't mind it although the first thing that come into my mind was Camry Sportivo, but not as bland. If it was the new Orion I wouldn't be excited just reassured that it's not a shocker. The Statesman on the other end i'm not so positive about, it looks like a new Caddilac although thats not always a bad thing.

Anyone saying i'm one-eyed about my opinon can go get stuffed, It'll probably look great in the flesh just like all new cars.

[blutura]

Originally Posted by buddyforu

Hmm well I thought I was being objective??

People rate the design/appeal of a car as their first choice when looking at buying a car, followed closely by reliability, fuel economy, safety, resale (not necessarily in that order) et al. The fact that the VT outsold the AU so strongly from the Falcon's launch (in some months during 1999 almost 2 to 1) shows that most Australians vehemently rejected the AU's 'out there' styling in preference for the VT. Proof that the VT's design was superior, aesthetically, to the AU.

Further evidence is Ford's rush job to fix, firstly the Forte's grill (cross hatch design which first appeared on the ute) and then ditching the Forte's scalloped bonnet in favour of the Futura/Fairmont's raised bonnet with more conservitive grill on the series 2/3 AU.

As for the Orion LHD program, good on Ford, lets just hope this plan turns into a reality. A lot can change between now and 2008. Ford NA has a long history of being indicisive and cautious in regards to the Falcon's future.

And you're right, a car's (as in Australian made ones) success isn't measured by how many are exported, but it does certaintly help in short and long term profitability as well as how much money is invested in furture deveopment of the vehicle. Basically an Australian car sold only for the Australian market cannot hope to have the same level of engineering and development as an Australian car sold to an international market.

The Lada example is flawed, you only have to look at its country of origin to realise why it failed. It was designed to be cheap, minimalist transport that wasn't particularly reliable using yesterdays technology, made by a company that has limited rescources. This is quite acceptable in Russia, but not elsewhere. Definately not a world car as such.

*waits for further scathing* :

it doesn't prove that the VT design was aesthetically superior at all. It proves that it was more popular, thats all. You cannot say that one car has superior looks to another, it depends on the viewer.

[McobraR]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

Wasn't there a pushrod V8 coming out? Something with DOD and a bit more muscle to fight the Chev V8's?. I thought i was Reading something about it early this year?.

Well it was earlier this year that the Hurricane V8 was brought back. It might be that which you're talking about because theres not alot known about it. Some say it is to consist of pushrods, others say its an evolution of the triton engines with a SOHC 3v layout. Who knows.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Cobra

The body and the intorior were all new for the VY. Well most of the body anyway...

But I can't see how the Orion will cost anywhere near 800 million. Not that I know anything about running a Car manufacturer, but in relative terms, most of the mechanical R&D would have been done on the BA? Only improvements from from here on in.

Everything will be improved apon, hardly anything will be a straight carry over. No panels will interchange. 800 million dollars easily spent there. Holden are spending 1 billion and they will use engines that will be basic carryovers with a few upgrades.

[Dazza XLT]

Has anyone heard what power range the cars will have? 195? 200KW in the 6's?