All things Solar (merged threads)

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Scooter

So has anyone got any recommendations or contacts for a good company in Perth?

hmm... Solar E in Belmont I know have pretty competitively priced SunPower systems, but SunPower 328watt panels are still pretty pricey.

I would avoid solarGain, Modern, and Polaris.


Just look for companies that supply Trina, Yingli, Suntech, or SunPower panels, and also inverters such as SMA, Evershine, and Aurora

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by Stagg

hmm... Solar E in Belmont I know have pretty competitively priced SunPower systems, but SunPower 328watt panels are still pretty pricey.

I would avoid solarGain, Modern, and Polaris.


Just look for companies that supply Trina, Yingli, Suntech, or SunPower panels, and also inverters such as SMA, Evershine, and Aurora

Thanks mate. Is Solargain the ones with Dennis Lillee doing there ads? (might just be a WA thing I don't know). Does anyone know who installed Comagutsa's system?

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Scooter

Thanks mate. Is Solargain the ones with Dennis Lillee doing there ads? (might just be a WA thing I don't know). Does anyone know who installed Comagutsa's system?

Yep SolarGain is the Dennis Lillee mob going, Dominic Mercuri who owns SolarGain actually used to be a SolaHart dealer years ago too interestingly

Who did his system again I can't actually remember, but I'm sure he'll answer for us soon!

[Stagg]

http://fordforums.com.au/showthread....85#post4663185

[MercurySilver]

mate at work is going to go german inverter and full german panels (not sure on size) at 5kw for 9500

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by MercurySilver

mate at work is going to go german inverter and full german panels (not sure on size) at 5kw for 9500

The only German manufactured panel is Bosch and if I were to quote on that, it would be thousands more expensive. Also, SMA is the only German manufactured inverter currently. If he is saying he is getting a different product other than Bosch and SMA then he is being mislead

[comagutsa]

Originally Posted by SPArKy_Dave

However I find it difficult to believe they would muck up 200,000 solar panels....... (averaged out to 15,000 installations?)

I thought TVS got rid of all their installers, and started again, about 2 yrs ago?
Is the new problem just from the last two yrs?

Surely these issues wouldn't be in Vic, as the inspectors would pick up the problems from the get go........ (one would hope)

i was told that the laws changed in October last year (the wiring now have to be fitted in conduit and metal cable ties and stuff now)
now TVS we selling these kits get 1.5kw of panels and a 3kw inverter so you can upgrade later
now with the rule changes if you add extra panels by law you have to upgrade the the wiring to the new regs (in turn you have to rewire the whole system) and this is going to cost the company an huge amount of money

[comagutsa]

Originally Posted by Scooter

So has anyone got any recommendations or contacts for a good company in Perth?

mate i used northern sun solar (got the good suntech panels and SMA inverter and they do them at a great price..they were great to deal with and where great help
i think they are selling a 3kw system with 250w suntech panels with SMA inverter for about $5990 installed
http://northernsunsolar.com.au/#gold
the blokes name in Mike

but i did have a problem with the installer they used (they hooked it up wrong) ..its sorted now
but long story short the installer they used have been given the flick now.

so all should be good now

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by comagutsa

i was told that the laws changed in October last year (the wiring now have to be fitted in conduit and metal cable ties and stuff now)
now TVS we selling these kits get 1.5kw of panels and a 3kw inverter so you can upgrade later
now with the rule changes if you add extra panels by law you have to upgrade the the wiring to the new regs (in turn you have to rewire the whole system) and this is going to cost the company an huge amount of money

Yeah the new legislation in October was that all external cabling must be run in bright orange conduit (which looks shocking by the way) and have SOLAR DC labeled every 2 or 3 meters, can't remember if it was 2 or 3 meters though..

Same with internal cables, however had to be grey conduit and also labeled SOLAR DC.


And yes correct if you had a system installed prior to October 2012 which was installed compliant with the old regs i.e. no labels on external conduit or not in orange, then yes it had to comply with the new regs and issued a new compliance cerificate and electrical safety certificate.


I still try to talk customers out of buying an upgradeable inverter because the system operates less efficiently; the larger inverter you have then the larger minimum operating Amperage (MOA) is required. Those TVS specials with a 1.6kW array and a 5kW inverter, people don't think about it a lot but that 1.6kW system may only be producing 30A until say 9am, and the inverter may have a MOA of 50A. Potentially, the inverter not switch on until about 10am in that case.



Best to note also that yes a cheap panel may also be a 250W panel but a cheaper panel also a lot of the time has a lower open circuit voltage, and also a cheaper inverter may have the same max DC capacity i.e. 5kW, although it would have a higher MOA.


Comparing apples with apples a cheap 5kW system versus a premium 5kW system they will both make the same max kW in perfect conditions correct, although over the year the premium system can make a total kWh production difference of greater than 25%.

[SPArKy_Dave]

Originally Posted by Stagg

The only German manufactured panel is Bosch and if I were to quote on that, it would be thousands more expensive. Also, SMA is the only German manufactured inverter currently. If he is saying he is getting a different product other than Bosch and SMA then he is being mislead

Maybe he's been quoted on the 'German Solar' BRANDED panels......
(which like the brand 'Australian Solar Panels' just come out of china)

[SPArKy_Dave]

Originally Posted by Stagg

Yeah the new legislation in October was that all external cabling must be run in bright orange conduit (which looks shocking by the way) and have SOLAR DC labeled every 2 or 3 meters, can't remember if it was 2 or 3 meters though..

Same with internal cables, however had to be grey conduit and also labeled SOLAR DC.


And yes correct if you had a system installed prior to October 2012 which was installed compliant with the old regs i.e. no labels on external conduit or not in orange, then yes it had to comply with the new regs and issued a new compliance cerificate and electrical safety certificate.


I still try to talk customers out of buying an upgradeable inverter because the system operates less efficiently; the larger inverter you have then the larger minimum operating Amperage (MOA) is required. Those TVS specials with a 1.6kW array and a 5kW inverter, people don't think about it a lot but that 1.6kW system may only be producing 30A until say 9am, and the inverter may have a MOA of 50A. Potentially, the inverter not switch on until about 10am in that case.

The HD conduit rule is only for WITHIN buildings - (ie, roofspace)
externally run conduit can be normal MD grey.

Orange HD cannot be used outside unless painted, as it's not UV rated.

But yeah, they've bought out a grey HD conduit and corry, which is UV rated like normal grey conduit, and marked 'Solar'.

[supershifty]

Sparky Dave, I got my solar installed April '12 (QLD). I had heard since then that the standards for fitting have now changed and an external DC isolator adjacent to the panels had to be fitted (as I understand to prevent current flowing from the array to inverter) I contacted my installer and he said that the changes wouldn't affect me as the changes weren't retrospective - is this true? He said he would fit one for $500 if I wanted one - is that reasonable? I've got 12 panels in a single array.

Cheers!

[SPArKy_Dave]

Originally Posted by supershifty

Sparky Dave, I got my solar installed April '12 (QLD). I had heard since then that the standards for fitting have now changed and an external DC isolator adjacent to the panels had to be fitted (as I understand to prevent current flowing from the array to inverter) I contacted my installer and he said that the changes wouldn't affect me as the changes weren't retrospective - is this true? He said he would fit one for $500 if I wanted one - is that reasonable? I've got 12 panels in a single array.

Cheers!

Yes, all accurate info there.
They don't make regs retrospective.

Rooftop isolator is only for new installations.

For $500, I would expect to see a premium brand telergon or kraus naimler isolator to be used.

They cost around $120 per isolator, for the good ones.

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by comagutsa

mate i used northern sun solar (got the good suntech panels and SMA inverter and they do them at a great price..they were great to deal with and where great help
i think they are selling a 3kw system with 250w suntech panels with SMA inverter for about $5990 installed
http://northernsunsolar.com.au/#gold
the blokes name in Mike

but i did have a problem with the installer they used (they hooked it up wrong) ..its sorted now
but long story short the installer they used have been given the flick now.

so all should be good now

Thanks mate, I read all about your dramas etc. just could not fing who you used. I will get a quote from them soon.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by SPArKy_Dave

Maybe he's been quoted on the 'German Solar' BRANDED panels......
(which like the brand 'Australian Solar Panels' just come out of china)

Yep, the brand German Solar has factories only located in China.

The brand Canadian Solar only has factories located in China also.

It becomes such an in depth topic when people are trying to define what is a German solar panel or inverter, when there are only two factories in the world that manufacture the machines that manufacture solar panels, and guess what... They're both in Germany! So regardless of where the panels are assembled, they are assembled by German machines. Some folks will say that makes all panels German but I wouldn't say so.

A manufacturer can have a head office in Switzerland, have R&D done in Germany, have panels assembled in both China and the Philippines, and have them installed by an Australian electrician. By some businesses methods they could sell that panel as Swiss, German, Chinese, Filipino, or Australian!

when the reality of it is as I had stated earlier, unless the panel brand is Bosch, then it's not a German manufactured solar panel.






Interesting read here for some folk, I must have given a huge abundance of reasons as to why some panels are cheaper now, and here is just another one. As I had stated that a lof of Chinese manufacturers have been dumping their waste to lower production costs, Europe has been investigating these dumping companies and is legislating anti-dumping laws; meaning that an un-environmental PV manufacturer is not allowed to have their panels installed in Europe without passing this new anti-dumping standard. Interestingly, this has already affected panels that a lot of the cheaper Australian competitors are selling, to pull out of the European market, because they did not pass these new standards. Notable brands include Renesola, NESL, and Lightway.

Yes that also means that Australia is getting Sloppy Seconds from Europe with these super cheap deals.

Here is a news article reference:

http://www.pv-tech.org/news/solar_mo...m_medium=email





Now just ANOTHER reason as to why some panels are cheaper than others, Renesola has begun outsourcing their manufacturing to contracted factories across China, meaning that Renesola panels quite literally, could be from absolutely any factory in China. You will also expect the panel warranties to lie with the factories, as opposed to Renesola itself. This means that yes, someone who happens to be purchasing a system using Renesola panels in the coming months (or potentially weeks) will have a warranty backed by god knows what factory in god knows what province in China. [B]Yep, I asked that installer the other day what panels TVS are using and sure enough it's Renesola all the way.[B]

Here is another news article reference

http://www.pv-tech.org/news/renesola...m_medium=email

This happened to a customer of mine a few years back when I was selling in Perth. I quoted on a SunPower 3kW system (back then at $15K!) and he went forward with SolarGain on a 3kW system using a Latronics inverter, and SolarFun panels. Now I got a call from him about 3 months after his initial enquiry and he had gone ahead with SolarGain. He had called us to see if our electrician could go out and inspect his system, as SolarGain kept referring him to SolarFun, and SolarFun kept giving him the number of a factory in Ghangzhou; who was the particular manufacturer of his panels, and no one in that factory could speak english.

When our electrician went out he had said that only after a matter of weeks on the roof, the panels busbars had begun to de-laminate; which is when those busbars (thick silver strips) on the surface of the panel, begun to separate from the solar cell, causing hot spots and also greatly reducing the voltage of the panels. His 3kW system went from making around 2850W in the first week to never reaching over 1700W.

Now he made this purchase on a basis of price, and because he did not know about these subcontracted factories in China, he had no idea how to claim a warranty and he was not able to make a warranty claim easily without shippping his panels back to Ghangzhou or learning how to speak Mandarin. And that really is the reality of going for cheap solar panels. You may have no idea where its from, no idea of the build quality, all for the matter of a better price.

Honestly I have given so much more information in this thread than I would to any regular customer lol I can guarantee you guys know more about solar power than about 80% of solar sales guys

[Stagg]

So what you will find with cheaper solar panels is De-Lamination; as I had said earlier, it is when the busbars start to lift off the cells and greatly reduce the performance of the panel.




Another issue with cheaper panels is that if those busbars OR the contacts are hand soldered on, it can also start to produce excessive heat as soon as the panel is installed on the roof, and after a few months the cell quite literally 'pops' and again, greatly reduces the performance of the panel.




Now this may not happen for a number of months as with the panels it usually takes a full season of summer and winter of the panel exposed to the two extremes, before it actually does pop.


EDIT: Both these photos that have been taken were taken of Monocrystalline panels. Due to the high demand for Mono panels cheaper manufacturers have begun cutting corners with manufacturing of Mono panels, and because of this exercise the Polycrystalline cells are now matching the Mono panels in performance however they are also superior in reliability as of this year!

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Stagg

[B]Yep, I asked that installer the other day what panels TVS are using and sure enough it's Renesola all the way.[B]

my panels aren't renesolar, but keep it up with your sweeping generalisations and vendetta against those you don't agree with

its like going in to holden and asking them for their opinion on fords!! how do you reckon thats going to go

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by prydey

my panels aren't renesolar, but keep it up with your sweeping generalisations and vendetta against those you don't agree with

its like going in to holden and asking them for their opinion on fords!! how do you reckon thats going to go

No you would probably have NESL panels, unless they got a hold of a cheaper panel and sold something else for a few weeks... TVS is currently selling Renesola however.

What brand of panels do you have anyway? I mean, of course you were parting with a big amount of cash... Did you research the manufacturer before putting down a deposit or just the retailer?

[Stagg]

Huh, just discovered here as well, here are the locations of Trina Solar factories:

Head Office
No. 2 Trina Road, Trina PV
Industrial Park, New District,
Changzhou, Jiangsu, 213031,

China
Rooms 1704-1706,
CCIG International Plaza,
No. 333 North Caoxi Road,
Shanghai 200030

China
X-17KL, Oriental Kenzo office
building ,
NO.48 Dongzhimenwai Street,
Dongcheng District ,
Beijing 100027

KOREA
Trina Solar Korea Ltd.
B-912, Intellige 2,
24 Jeongja-dong,
Bundang-gu, Seongnam-si,
Gyeonggi-do, 463-841
Korea





And here are their corporate offices

JAPAN
Trina Solar Japan Ltd
World Trade Center Building
33th Floor, 4-1 2-chome
Hamamatsu-cho Minato-ku,
Tokyo 105-6133
Japan

GERMANY
Elisabethstrasse 91,
D-80797 Munich,
Germany

ITALY
Via Santa Maria Valle 3
20123 Milan
Italy

SPAIN
Paseo de la Castellana 141,
8th Floor,
28046 Madrid,
Spain

SWITZERLAND
European HQ
Trina Solar (Schweiz) AG
Leutschenbachstr. 45,
8050 Zurich,
Switzerland

U.S.A.
Trina Solar (U.S.), Inc.
100 Century Center, Suite 340,
San Jose CA 95112,
USA


There are contact numbers that I have available to me also for these head offices and factories, however I figured posting this here would be a worthwhile practice to say to people that I could sell the panel as a Chinese, or Korean, as there are factories located in China, and Korea.


It would be wrong, misleading, and illegal for me to sell the panels as German, Itelian, Spanish, Swiss, or American. and truthfully, a lot of companies have an office in Germany, and retailers are misleading folks like yourselves that they are a German panel. In my opinion, a panel is not German unless it is manufactured there.



Also just a heads up for any folks out there who actually did decide that they wanted a good system with excellent backup, the largest importer of Solar PV modules for Trina, Suntech, Sharp, Bosch, and SMA, is a nationwide importer known as RFI Power Partners. RFI has a physical office in Sydney, however they have over 100 different suppliers who are obliged to look after our customers of these products. That said, if you have any issue, if you have purchased Suntech, Sharp, Trina, Bosch, or SMA (however SMA has their own 48 hours after sales fault service also), call your retailer and they will repair or replace the faulty items for you. What will happen is the retailer will then make a claim back to RFI and be reimbursed the damaged goods.

The beauty of this sort of process, is that as a customer, you get super fast speedy repair or replacement of parts, and as for the back end warranty paperwork, us retailers take care of the paper work and we are reimbursed for the damaged goods AFTER your fault has been rectified.

So there are more reasons as to why spending a little bit more is worth the hassle

Here is Power Partners Website:

http://www.turnonthesun.com.au/

[MercurySilver]

Originally Posted by Stagg

The only German manufactured panel is Bosch and if I were to quote on that, it would be thousands more expensive. Also, SMA is the only German manufactured inverter currently. If he is saying he is getting a different product other than Bosch and SMA then he is being mislead

i'll ask him today when i see him

[Scooter]

Are there different model SMA inverters? I have seen a couple of different part numbers (I believe they are part numbers) on a couple of different websites, but both are 3kw SMA.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Scooter

Are there different model SMA inverters? I have seen a couple of different part numbers (I believe they are part numbers) on a couple of different websites, but both are 3kw SMA.

Yep, there is the 3000TL and the 3000HF.

The 3000TL (transformerless) I believe has a higher MOA but costs a little bit less, while the HF (High Frequency transformerless) makes next to no noise and has a lower MOA.

[Stagg]

SMA 3000HF



SMA 3000TL

[Scooter]

M o a?

[Stagg]

MOA: Monimum Operating Amperage; Some brochures have it down as the MOV (Minimum Operating Voltage).

Think of where the sun moves throughout the day; rises in the east, and sets in the west. At first dawn, your solar panels are making a SMALL amount of amperage first thing in the morning; very minimal. What happens is that very small amount of power at first light is quite often not enough amperage for the inverter to actually turn on and start converting to 240V AC power.

The MOA on an inverter, is the minimum DC amperage that can be flowing from the solar panels, for the inverter to switch on. Ideally, the lower the MOA is on an inverter, then the earlier in the morning the system will switch on, because the inverter only needs a small amperage to actually turn on.


Premium inverters have a lower MOA because they actually aid your system in generating power for a longer period of time throughout the day, turns on earlier in the day and shuts off later in the day

[masda74]

Everytime I see a picture of the 3000TL,4000TL and the 5000TL it makes me go
oooooooooooooooooooooooohhhh, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I got a SMA 5000TL with 6.1KW worth of panels connected to it.
I have been online since April 28 2011. It has been almost 2 years now that I have had the system installed. I have not paid a bill since and have received a cheque every single time.

Everyone kept sayin install a small amount of panels and upgrade later. I installed 27 panels and when I went to upgrade the system to get more panels, I paid the price.
It is best to get the system with the amount of panels you need as the second install will cost you soo much more in terms of total cost of the install.
What I mean is that if you add 5 more panels, half the cost will be labour charges.

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by Stagg

hmm... Solar E in Belmont I know have pretty competitively priced SunPower systems, but SunPower 328watt panels are still pretty pricey.

I would avoid solarGain, Modern, and Polaris.


Just look for companies that supply Trina, Yingli, Suntech, or SunPower panels, and also inverters such as SMA, Evershine, and Aurora

I rang SolarE and the salesman qutoed me on the basic 3kw system for $4390
which was Herion? panels and $500 extra for a SMA inverter. That was over the Delta Solivia inverter. I asked about Suntech panels etc, but he insisted these Herions were just as good? Seemed very keen to make a sale, said if he was in the ball park with other competitors, he would come out and do a better deal. I am still waiting to hear from Northernsunsolar and someone else. Can't remember who they were now?

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Scooter

I rang SolarE and the salesman qutoed me on the basic 3kw system for $4390
which was Herion? panels and $500 extra for a SMA inverter. That was over the Delta Solivia inverter. I asked about Suntech panels etc, but he insisted these Herions were just as good? Seemed very keen to make a sale, said if he was in the ball park with other competitors, he would come out and do a better deal. I am still waiting to hear from Northernsunsolar and someone else. Can't remember who they were now?

Nup I haven't heard of Herion, it would be a cheap system. A few years ago they used to use UPSOLAR panels.

I would stick to Suntech or SunPower with those guys, Suntech will be a premium system, SunPower are by far the most efficient panel there is out there but a SunPower quote could well knock your socks off! Herion may or may not have the same wattage per panel as Suntech but you aren't going to get the best performance and after sales with anything else. Suntech would last a lot longer anyway.

As for SMA, again, Stick to that. I'm cautious about those Delta inverters...

Again from my four years experience in the industry I would only accept quotes from the panel brands SunTech, SunPower, Trina, or Yingli. As far as inverters go, I would never go past an SMA, Evershine, or Aurora; wouldn't touch anything else



Lots of companies always sell a cheaper panel to try and capture that lower end of the market. We sell a brand at my work called Jinko, pretty close performance to Trina, although they are actually a very carbon intensive manufacturer much like other cheaper panel brands. It's just a way that solar businesses try to capture that bottom end of the market. But definitely if it was my roof I wouldn't touch anything other than those brands I have mentioned

[comagutsa]

Yeah i have the SMA 3000TL .. no noise from it and mine is blue not red Haha
No complaints about it

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by Stagg

Nup I haven't heard of Herion, it would be a cheap system. A few years ago they used to use UPSOLAR panels.

I would stick to Suntech or SunPower with those guys, Suntech will be a premium system, SunPower are by far the most efficient panel there is out there but a SunPower quote could well knock your socks off! Herion may or may not have the same wattage per panel as Suntech but you aren't going to get the best performance and after sales with anything else. Suntech would last a lot longer anyway.

As for SMA, again, Stick to that. I'm cautious about those Delta inverters...

Again from my four years experience in the industry I would only accept quotes from the panel brands SunTech, SunPower, Trina, or Yingli. As far as inverters go, I would never go past an SMA, Evershine, or Aurora; wouldn't touch anything else



Lots of companies always sell a cheaper panel to try and capture that lower end of the market. We sell a brand at my work called Jinko, pretty close performance to Trina, although they are actually a very carbon intensive manufacturer much like other cheaper panel brands. It's just a way that solar businesses try to capture that bottom end of the market. But definitely if it was my roof I wouldn't touch anything other than those brands I have mentioned

The guy I spoke to really wanted to push these products, and said they did not do Suntech panels, he was quick to point out these others are just as good. It pretty much put me off straight away. But you never know if you never ask. I think I will be going for Suntech and SMA 3kw system, just trying to find someone willing to supply it. Waiting for Northernsunsolar to get back to me (that Comagutsa used). I think they will be the go.