All things Solar (merged threads)

[F350guy]

Yes, in a way. We have solar power on our speed boat lol.
We have solar panels ready to go on our bus when we get it but when it comes to the house, we have to get trees cleared on both properties first. Which is expensive since we have 30 metre tall gum trees from a neighbours house whos branches are overbearing our house on one property.

[bungers]

Originally Posted by Scooter

The guy I spoke to really wanted to push these products, and said they did not do Suntech panels, he was quick to point out these others are just as good. It pretty much put me off straight away. But you never know if you never ask. I think I will be going for Suntech and SMA 3kw system, just trying to find someone willing to supply it. Waiting for Northernsunsolar to get back to me (that Comagutsa used). I think they will be the go.

Just (Thursday) had a SMA 5000TL invertor with 20 Suntech 250W panels installed by EuroSolar for 8k. Just over 1 week from deposit to install. Now just waiting on an inspection and connection to the grid. Installer's were local guys. Did a good job. Try giving them a call.

Sent from a bar somewhere

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by F350guy

Yes, in a way. We have solar power on our speed boat lol.
We have solar panels ready to go on our bus when we get it but when it comes to the house, we have to get trees cleared on both properties first. Which is expensive since we have 30 metre tall gum trees from a neighbours house whos branches are overbearing our house on one property.

Yes, it seems an interesting concept that to help save the environment with solar panels, in some areas you have to actually start chopping down trees... I usually cringe when I would tell customers that they would have to chop down trees, most of the time I actually ask the customers how much they love their trees and if they want to go solar and keep the trees then we can figure out a method of doing so. I have the tools now to actually quote on ground mounted systems too; possibility for most but not all houses. Mentioned WAY back in this thread, ground mount solar systems seem to attract plenty more insects and animals and need a bit more cleaning, a customer of mine had cows who had destroyed the panels because they were amazing to scratch their backsides on lol


Solar in Victoria has changed so much over these last few years, definitely not what it was when I started in the industry.

[SPArKy_Dave]

Originally Posted by Stagg

So what you will find with cheaper solar panels is De-Lamination; as I had said earlier, it is when the busbars start to lift off the cells and greatly reduce the performance of the panel.

Here's some pic's from a service call I went out to the other week.
The customers system was non-functional.
He said it was about 4yrs old.

[SPArKy_Dave]

What you're seeing there, is the tin plated copper busbars oxidising, as a result of the yellowing panels.

The yellowing, is the solar panel EVA (resin) breaking down from UV rays.
The process creates acetic acid (vinegar gas), which attacks all the metal componentry within the panels themselves.

It causes the panels to die a slow death.
If you've got yellowed panels on your roof, don't leave them.

The above solar panels, are Taizhou Sopray 170w, (going by the sticker.)
Sopray panels are reknown for yellowing.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by SPArKy_Dave

What you're seeing there, is the tin plated copper busbars oxidising, as a result of the yellowing panels.

The yellowing, is the solar panel EVA (resin) breaking down from UV rays.
The process creates acetic acid (vinegar gas), which attacks all the metal componentry within the panels themselves.

It causes the panels to die a slow death.
If you've got yellowed panels on your roof, don't leave them.

The above solar panels, are Taizhou Sopray 170w, (going by the sticker.)
Sopray panels are reknown for yellowing.

Makes it easier to say why some panels are cheaper than others!

I found a few photos for everyone here as well for a comparison of the factory conditions.

Here is an image of inside the Renesola Factory.




Now what is happenineg here, is those busbars that are on the surface of these solar cells, is being soldered on by hand. This as I had explained waaaay back in the thread, is what causes potential bubbles and hot spots on the cells because of imperfections with the contact on the solar cell. It is a far cheaper way of making a panel.


Here is a few images of inside the Trina factory



The factory is 100% robotised, meaning that the solar cells are untouched by human hand for the duration of the manufacturing process. Busbars are making perfect contact on the cells also preventing any hotspots on the panel.

I will note that on that bottom right picture for Trina, is an additional component of the manufacturing process which is UV treating the cells before they are packaged into a panel and shipped off to anywhere. What happens when a silicon cell (mono, poly, multi) is first exposed to UV light, it immediately degrades the solar cell by anywhere from about 5% to 20%. What Trina is doing here is they are UV treating cells so that it has that degradation happen before it is installed on someones roof i.e. if you buy a 250W panel, then it has the potential to make 250W when it actually gets onto your roof.

And that is just another thing that cheaper companies don't do which is another reason why some panels are more expensive than others!

[Stagg]

Also just had a run in with the boss this morning, was arguing about the business was completely about the financial side of the business; no one in solar has anything anymore to do with the environmental benefits and I should not even mention it to any customers.

I handed in my resignation letter and I'm out of solar as of today. That conversation just put me off solar altogether, because I was selling myself short if I were to forget about what solar is all about for the sake of profitability I'll still contribute to this thread although I may not be up to speed with the latest and greatest after now

[comagutsa]

not good to hear mate

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by comagutsa

not good to hear mate

No it is a bit sad, but it is true that Solar has just got to the point where is is 100% based on the bottom dollar, nothing to do with the environment at all; I had been selling myself short and have not enjoyed being at work for the last few months.


That said, with everything I have contributed to this thread in the last few weeks, I can guarantee that everyone now knows more than almost every sales rep in the solar industry so I hope I've done my part

[comagutsa]

so whats next ..male model haha

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by comagutsa

so whats next ..male model haha

ahahah you been reading in the 'do you even lift' thread now have we?? Actually did try that for a little while part time last year, was... weird to say the least lol

Nahh I'll be trying something else I'm passionate about, so probably get into personal training/gym membership consultant, or even find a nutrition store to work in.

Hopefully there are more people who can justify spending $20 per week for a sake of health instead of spending $5k for the environment

[SPArKy_Dave]

Originally Posted by Stagg

Also just had a run in with the boss this morning, was arguing about the business was completely about the financial side of the business; no one in solar has anything anymore to do with the environmental benefits and I should not even mention it to any customers.

I handed in my resignation letter and I'm out of solar as of today. That conversation just put me off solar altogether, because I was selling myself short if I were to forget about what solar is all about for the sake of profitability I'll still contribute to this thread although I may not be up to speed with the latest and greatest after now

That's made me sad, it's definitely a sign of the times.
Money money money...........

One should always stay passionate about what they believe in.
It's not good when things turn bad like that.

[poppa smurf]

well I was very pleased with the info being handed out between members until i read Stagg had resigned........I hope you find another position soon......chin up son, another day tomorrow

it is always about the money nowadays......green thinking costs

[supershifty]

Stagg, gotta tip my hat to you mate for believing in your principles and ethics and standing on your digs. It does your head in being in a job you don't like, even worse when you're stuck there because of financial commitments. I bit the bullet last year and chucked my job in, shot myself in the foot as I haven't been able to find full time work since - feel better mentally though.

All the best to you mate, you're young and knowledgable so something will come your way. Thanks for your contribution to this thread - don't become a stranger either.

Cheers!

[MercurySilver]

spoke to that mate at work and the 5kw he was going with was a sunnyboy inverter and some canadian panels that won a bronze medal in some poll or something

the guy installing it for him has his own business and said when the feed in tariff stops and the rebate goes the price will go back up and then we can watch a lot of solar 'companies' just pull the pin

the place that do the canadian panels apparently has an insurance policy on all warranty work and parts
so if they do go under or something bad happens its in some contract that all stuff will be fixed as the money is sitting there put aside

whatever that means

solar is confusing to me
so many options etc

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Hey guys,

I'm after some advice/input.

I've recently received a bonus from work, and instead of spending it on the normal stuff (holiday, wife etc) I thought I'd look into having a solar setup installed. On top of that, I now work for AGL and they had their solar division give us a presentation on their systems.

Instead of just sticking to the AGL deal, I also received two other quotes through the solarquotes.com.au website.

Here's some base information for you:

Our daily electricity usage is around the 16kWh per day mark.

I have radequate oof space facing to the north and also to the west for any of the quoted systems.

Most of our consumption would be in the morning before school, and then again in the afternoon after school. The wife works three days a week, between the school hours.

In summary, this is what I've been quoted on:

Solar Sunwerx

The sales rep, after assessing our usage, recommended a 2kW system, with all of the panels on the west face roof as this would maximise the generation of solar power at our peak usage time.

The 2kW system was quoted as $3900. This consists of 8 off Jinko 250W panels (poly) and a Orion 2000W inverter.

The 3kW system was quoted as $5900. This consists of 12 off Jinko 250W panels (poly) and a Samil 3000W inverter.

Metro Solar

The sales rep recommended I nstall a 3kW system on the north face of the roof. He didn't agree with the assessment made by the Sunwerx solar rep in mountng the installation on the west face.

The 2.5kW system was quoted as $5400. This consists of 10 off 250W (mono) panels, and microinverters (not sure of brand).

The 3kW system was quoted as $6300. This consists of 12 off 250W (mono) panels, and microinverters (not sure of brand).

AGL Solar

The sales rep recommended I install a 3kW system on the north face of the roof. She didn't agree with the assessment made by the Sunwerx solar rep in mounting the installation on the west face.

The 2kW system is quoted as around the $3900 mark. This consists of 8 off EKO Energy 250W (mono) panels, with a EKO2000 inverter.

The 3kW system is quoted as around the $5400 mark. This consists of 12 off EKO Energy 250W (mono) panels, with a EKO3000DB inverter.

Considerations

This is the hard bit. Which one to go for
Pros for the Sunwerx system is that the price is low compared to the others. The panels have better specs than the AGL panels (+3% as opposed to +/- 3%). Based on the calculatiosn fromt he sales rep, the 2kW system could be paid off just over 7 years as opposed to the 3kW system which would take 10 years. Sales rep was very open and said that a system from any of the suppliers I was approaching would be good quality and he was quite oreoared to undersell me the 2kW system in lieu f the larger (and more $$$) 3kW system.

Cons are that I'm not convinced on the west face theory. Seems to be risky based on other sales rep expriences. Also, panels are poly which may not be as good as the monos??

Pros for the Metro system is that the microinverter (if you believe the salesman and his 'data') produce more energy for the same size panel/inverter arrangement than a central inverter. These micro inverters are warranted for 25 years as opposed to the central inverter where most of these are only warranted for 10 years or less.

Cons are that the system is more expensive. Salesman seemed quite happy to bag other systems.

Pros for the AGL system is that purchase price is cheap due to staff discount. Support shoudl be good given that I am an employee of the company. I know that AGL should be around for quite some time. I also have the ability to pay the system off through pay deductions rather than lump sum (for small cover charge)

Cons are that the system is somewhat questionable from a quality perspective (AGL bought out Eko Energy, and there are mixed reports on the web, although on the solarquotes website, they (AGL) seem to get a fair rap).

I'm sure there is more to this once you start to delve a bit further, but these are the basic details. As I said before, trying to make a decision on which way to go is difficult, so if any of you have some advice/information you could offer, that would be greatly appreciated.

Craig H

[SPArKy_Dave]

Me personally,

I wouldn't go for any of that.

I'd recommend a Sunnyboy or Aurora inverter
And Trina or Suntech solar panels.

What the Sunwerx bloke said, is true to an extent.
Now that the feed in tariff is only 8c/kwh, and the electricity tariff is typically 30c/kwh you're better off using as much of your solar energy in the house, instead of feeding it back into the grid.

If no-one is home during the day until the arvo, (kids home from school etc,) I'd agree with the West facing theory.

If people are home all day, and use power throughout the day, then I'd agree with facing the solar Array North.

If both instances occur, you could always face one string of panels North, and have the other facing West.



edit - If there were no budget constraints, I'd recommend a 4-5kw system, if you're trying to neutralise your power bill.
Typically, a solar array will generate 4kwh per day, for every 1kw of solar panels.
More in summer, and less in winter.

I subby to Rezeko/AGL, so I know their systems.
If the employee discount incentive is significant, I'd definitely consider their offer,
even if it is all home brand componentry.

[EgoFG]

Hmmm, I believe the warranty should be backed locally, but on Suntech ....

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/busines...t_16326213.htm

Maybe worth avoiding

[Winter XR8]

This was released in the West Australian today.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...ll-households/

[poppa smurf]

Hmmm! interesting surmising these power companies keep coming up with to try and keep their profits up

(1) the power I sell back to the grid is "green power" this is sold on as a premium by the retailers = profit

(2) it states "householders may have to pay $150 per year supply charge", ...Ummm! I just got my account and i am paying $61.70 per quarter or $246.80 per year as it is

the bunkum these mobs keep coming up with absolutely astounds me.........

on another note having just got my account I am a bit shy of the $1,000 for the first year thanks to the last heatwave and me using the reverse cycle instead of the ducted evaporative.........but factoring in the savings I have made by not having a bill I am in front by $2,270.00

so going by that I will have the system paid back in a bit over 6 years

[saam]

its a bit like the LPG subsidy. The government get all happy in their pants and tell you that your going to get 1-2k in subsity to get an LPG system put in your car. Overnight the LPG installers charge double for the same system they were selling for 2k.
Then the goverment gets the money back by slowly increasing the price at the pump

Economics 1 on 1

Lets build houses with no main gas supply and power supply. Id like to see what our goverments would come up with then

[poppa smurf]

yeah! they are simply not fair dinkum about it!......

[prydey]

i don't know how they sleep at night, some of these people. nothing like having your cake and eating it too.

why do those who decide to make the decision to go solar get penalised? obviously they do things in the name of 'fairness' given there are some who can't afford to so solar people pay more to offset the damage to those who can't, but now it appears that they don't seem to care how transparent their gouging is!! they have a product they know that people need, so they are a law unto themselves.

why does SA pay the most for electrictity in the country?? how does that work.

[poppa smurf]

well when a faceless, multinational company is involved then all is fair.....deregulation was one bad move, privatisation was another major blunder followed by self regulation being the last nail in the consumers coffin

water is another, until government takes back control of essential services we are doomed to simply continue paying until we have no more loot to give, as is the case of a lot of folks right now who are afraid to fire up the air con or heaters

[Bundy]

Originally Posted by Stagg

Also just had a run in with the boss this morning, was arguing about the business was completely about the financial side of the business; no one in solar has anything anymore to do with the environmental benefits and I should not even mention it to any customers.

I handed in my resignation letter and I'm out of solar as of today. That conversation just put me off solar altogether, because I was selling myself short if I were to forget about what solar is all about for the sake of profitability I'll still contribute to this thread although I may not be up to speed with the latest and greatest after now

Sorry to hear.

Unfortunately all business are in the business of making money. If they don't they're out of it. The consumer is also fixated on money too don't forget, spending it, saving it, getting best the deals possible.

Stay true, your knowledge is most valuable and will continue to be.

Find another company to work for, better yet, start one.

[comagutsa]

see this is crap ... WA has some of the worst solar incentives in australia (unless you go tthe 47 and 27cent buy back from years ago)
we get a whole 8.4cents for every unit we export
last bill i exported 744 units and only around $60 for it
i used 710 units and still had a bill of nearly $150
now they want to charge us more because we have solar hooked up to our house and arnt paying for power ..WTF ....what a load of crap

[supershifty]

Originally Posted by Winter XR8

This was released in the West Australian today.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...ll-households/

This power company crying poor because of the solar uptake is BS.

I have no idea of what the FIT is in WA, so I'll base my arguement on what I can relate in QLD.

AGL charges me around 25 cents for every kW I use (plus the daily supply fee) Fair enough they pay the supplier (Energex) a c/kW rating and onsell the power to me at a profit - that's business.

AGL pays me 8 cents for every kW I feed back into the grid that they can onsell for 25 cents, or another way of looking at it - they charge me 25c for a product I've sold them for 8c!

How much are they paying Energex for the power that they onsell to me? I'll bet it's not as cheap as 8c!

Food for thought anyway.

Cheers!

[comagutsa]

Originally Posted by supershifty

This power company crying poor because of the solar uptake is BS.

I have no idea of what the FIT is in WA, so I'll base my arguement on what I can relate in QLD.

AGL charges me around 25 cents for every kW I use (plus the daily supply fee) Fair enough they pay pay the supplier (Energex) a c/kW rating and onsell the power to me at a profit - that's business.

AGL pays me 8 cents for every kW I feed back into the grid that they can onsell for 25 cents, or another way of looking at it - they charge me 25c for a product I've sold them for 8c!

How much are they paying Energex for the power that they onsell to me? I'll bet it's not as cheap as 8c!

Food for thought anyway.

Cheers!

yep that close to what we get in WA
8.4c and they sell it to us at 23c....

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by saam

its a bit like the LPG subsidy. The government get all happy in their pants and tell you that your going to get 1-2k in subsity to get an LPG system put in your car. Overnight the LPG installers charge double for the same system they were selling for 2k.
Then the goverment gets the money back by slowly increasing the price at the pump

Economics 1 on 1

Lets build houses with no main gas supply and power supply. Id like to see what our governments would come up with then

Not quite accurate, I had mentioned back in the thread that ironically, Solar PV modules attract incredibly inflated import taxes. I am not an importer nor have I worked for an importer however our importers have told us that any sort if imported product which attracts any sort of government subsidy is hit with inflated import taxes. What has happened over the years is that as the rebates have dropped, so have the taxes impeding on imported panels; hence the price has been dropping when rebates have been dropping.

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Hey guys,

I'm after some advice/input.

I've recently received a bonus from work, and instead of spending it on the normal stuff (holiday, wife etc) I thought I'd look into having a solar setup installed. On top of that, I now work for AGL and they had their solar division give us a presentation on their systems.

Instead of just sticking to the AGL deal, I also received two other quotes through the solarquotes.com.au website.

Here's some base information for you:

Our daily electricity usage is around the 16kWh per day mark.

To generate 16kWh daily, you will need a 4kW system.

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

I have radequate oof space facing to the north and also to the west for any of the quoted systems.

Most of our consumption would be in the morning before school, and then again in the afternoon after school. The wife works three days a week, between the school hours.

In summary, this is what I've been quoted on:

Solar Sunwerx

The sales rep, after assessing our usage, recommended a 2kW system, with all of the panels on the west face roof as this would maximise the generation of solar power at our peak usage time.

The 2kW system was quoted as $3900. This consists of 8 off Jinko 250W panels (poly) and a Orion 2000W inverter.

The 3kW system was quoted as $5900. This consists of 12 off Jinko 250W panels (poly) and a Samil 3000W inverter.

Jinko panels are ok in terms of performance, however they are under scrutiny with the new anti-dumping laws now also being implemented in China. They are comparable performance wise to something such as Trina, however they will never last as long, and they are also a non recyclable panel and have a very carbon intensive manufacturing plant. SamilPower inverters are also what TVS are using at the moment and those inverters have a 20% failure rate from the box, and have a very high minimum operating amperage, meaning that your output from a SamilPower inverter will be less than a system with the same panels but a premium inverter. It is definitely a bargain basement system.

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Metro Solar

The sales rep recommended I nstall a 3kW system on the north face of the roof. He didn't agree with the assessment made by the Sunwerx solar rep in mountng the installation on the west face.

The 2.5kW system was quoted as $5400. This consists of 10 off 250W (mono) panels, and microinverters (not sure of brand).

The 3kW system was quoted as $6300. This consists of 12 off 250W (mono) panels, and microinverters (not sure of brand).

Steer clear of them, they have not given you any panel or inverter brand. The most common reason for this is they shop around for the cheapest container they can find before selling that particular container at that particular price, never sticking to one brand. You would probably have no idea what panels went on the roof. Also, Mono panels are no longer the most powerful solar cell on the market; they used to be, until there was a huge influx of cheaper manufacturers cutting costs and the performance of mono cells has reduced drastically compared to the poly cells.

Regarding microinverters, that is something that will be becoming huge in the future. You can have any panel facing any direction and can add on as many panels as you want. Essentially, instead of say a 5000W solar array on the roof and a 5000W inverter, microinverters you may have 20 x 250W inverters wired individually into every 250W panel. It is still early days though, I have heard of a few house fires with some cheaper versions of microinverters...

[QUOTE=psychobimbo]AGL Solar

The sales rep recommended I install a 3kW system on the north face of the roof. She didn't agree with the assessment made by the Sunwerx solar rep in mounting the installation on the west face.

The 2kW system is quoted as around the $3900 mark. This consists of 8 off EKO Energy 250W (mono) panels, with a EKO2000 inverter.

The 3kW system is quoted as around the $5400 mark. This consists of 12 off EKO Energy 250W (mono) panels, with a EKO3000DB inverter.[QUOTE]

Eko Energy aren't actually a bad panel or inverter at all. Interestingly Eko Energy was once Rezeko before AGL bought them out, and I got to meet the engineer in 2010 who designed these panels & inverter. Back in 2010 the panels were manufactured in Germany (before moving to China like every other company) and the panel design has remained the same so I would be confident they are a premium panel. However, the after sales care would be the issue here for me: AGL does not have a service team that I am aware of; meaning that if there is a fault then it could mean 20 calls later before finding someone to fix the fault. Yes even though AGL bought them out they have not appointed a warranty and faults service team. I may be wrong however you mentioned you work for AGL so your say may be better than mine lol

Originally Posted by psychobimbo

Considerations

This is the hard bit. Which one to go for
Pros for the Sunwerx system is that the price is low compared to the others. The panels have better specs than the AGL panels (+3% as opposed to +/- 3%). Based on the calculatiosn fromt he sales rep, the 2kW system could be paid off just over 7 years as opposed to the 3kW system which would take 10 years. Sales rep was very open and said that a system from any of the suppliers I was approaching would be good quality and he was quite oreoared to undersell me the 2kW system in lieu f the larger (and more $$$) 3kW system.

Cons are that I'm not convinced on the west face theory. Seems to be risky based on other sales rep expriences. Also, panels are poly which may not be as good as the monos??

Pros for the Metro system is that the microinverter (if you believe the salesman and his 'data') produce more energy for the same size panel/inverter arrangement than a central inverter. These micro inverters are warranted for 25 years as opposed to the central inverter where most of these are only warranted for 10 years or less.

Cons are that the system is more expensive. Salesman seemed quite happy to bag other systems.

Pros for the AGL system is that purchase price is cheap due to staff discount. Support shoudl be good given that I am an employee of the company. I know that AGL should be around for quite some time. I also have the ability to pay the system off through pay deductions rather than lump sum (for small cover charge)

Cons are that the system is somewhat questionable from a quality perspective (AGL bought out Eko Energy, and there are mixed reports on the web, although on the solarquotes website, they (AGL) seem to get a fair rap).

I'm sure there is more to this once you start to delve a bit further, but these are the basic details. As I said before, trying to make a decision on which way to go is difficult, so if any of you have some advice/information you could offer, that would be greatly appreciated.

Craig H

Out of all of those the AGL deal would be the most sound, however still I would not delve into anything on the panels other than Suntech, SunPower, Trina, or Yingli. As far as inverters go, nothing other than SMA, Evershine, or Aurora. If it HAD to be one of those three definitely the AGL one

Originally Posted by EgoFG

Hmmm, I believe the warranty should be backed locally, but on Suntech ....

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/busines...t_16326213.htm

Maybe worth avoiding

Now THAT is scary stuff and showing just how much pressure is on the industry, that Suntech is in that kind of trouble... Last time I talked to our importer, the Chinese government was in debate whether to financially back a number of manufacturers to protect the most environmentally friendly, most ethical, and the most reputable brands. This massive tender in China has gone out to thousands of companies but it has currently come down to the 10 manufacturers, off the top of my head I can't remember all, but it included SolarOne, SunTech, Trina, Yingli, Jinko, Canadian Solar, I can't remember the rest sorry...

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by comagutsa

yep that close to what we get in WA
8.4c and they sell it to us at 23c....

Be thankful you're only paying 23c for a kWh. We're paying 32c - 35c here in SA! The reason I installed solar, to reduce my electricity costs!