All things Solar (merged threads)

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by Stagg

One thing with that though; a handful of people such as myself believe its the REAL way to go solar, but for the majority of people who have gone solar..

Just out of curiosity Stagg, do you know what the environmental impact is for the manufacture and disposal of the deep cycle batteries required for these systems? Genuine curiosity here

[Stagg]

I haven't delved into the environmental impact for the manufacture and transport of batteries as much as I have done PV modules, however I am aware that Lead-Acid is something to stay away from, and try to go for the deep-cycle Lithium. I wouldn't believe that any sort of battery would have a huge amount of recyclable properties although it would make more sense to get the longest lasting, as there would be far less waste in that sense.

So yeah only really basic knowledge haha sorry

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

Just out of curiosity Stagg, do you know what the environmental impact is for the manufacture and disposal of the deep cycle batteries required for these systems? Genuine curiosity here

not real good......most batteries in stand alone systems out here are 6V AGM deep cycle, they are replaced every 3 - 5 years

quite a few are resold on ebay or private, they are highly sought after as the life is far greater than 5 years.......environmental construction cost unknown, recyclability would not be easy

however these shortfalls would have to be weighed against the lack of carbon production emanating from coal or gas

[sgt_doofey]

Would it be fair to say then that people would be going for these types of systems once again for the cost savings rather than the environmental aspect of it? Just like the majority of solar buyers?

I see the same sort of batteries at work in our UPS for our server room. I wonder if I could get them when the finally decommission that room? There should be enough there to power a house considering how much power we were once drawing for that room.

[poppa smurf]

these batteries are readily available from all sorts of places, I've seen them in "off grid" solar sales sheds just sitting on pallets

I'm sure an enquiry would quickly yield a positive answer.......however do a lot of research on powering these things up and charging, the batteries cannot be hooked directly to the existing inverter and they cannot be directly hooked into household power boxes

please get PROFESSIONAL advise

as far as economics versus environmental, I think, economic first then the "warm fuzzy feeling" may encroach as the bills fall away

I have just been involved in my 180th install, I'm pushed into the planning and supervision of installation now.....a lot of folks really can be conned by a fast talker and there are still a lot of snake oil salesmen out there

shame as I'm a great believer in solar

[poppa smurf]

I was asked a hypothetical today about solar and it's "carbon production" footprint during initial construction.

I'm talking about the materials that go into the panels, wiring, inverter and bolts.

is there anywhere on the inter web that I can go to and see if I can work out it's carbon cost.

my line of thinking is that given the production of materials and subsequent construction of systems are a bulk configuration then the individual carbon cost would be very low......thought's please!!!

I had a look at my SMA wireless monitor once again and got to the Co2 avoided section and I was surprised that it read 5,273.74 kilograms.

this represents a saving of five tonnes of co2 entering the atmosphere.....not insignificant by any means.

this amount is saved during a relatively short period of time, 12 months in fact, over the life of the system it will be a fair bit of planet saving production.

thought's!!

[SAPNEN]

I am an installer and have a measly 1.5kW on my roof, this system averages (in Gold Coast) about 6kWH per day across an entire year, for 2 in a house with gas cooktop and gas hot water this is enough to zero the winter bill and halve the summer (using A/C) bill. I have the 44c feed in.

Don't be scared off of the measly 8c feed in tarrif if you use the majority of energy during the day light hours, a good designer (like me) can still save you alot of money.

The feed in may be 8c but what you are bringing in and using is costing 24c+ so effectively you can get 24c per kWH.

[prydey]

2 of the things that you are unlikely to be able to cover are kettles and dryers. kettles are often used before the sun is up and after it goes down and are very high wattage users. dryers are often used when the weather outside is less than perfect for drying clothes and are also very high wattage users. dryer usage can be minimised but not many are prepared to forego their morning coffee

post solar, its best to try to alter your routines to suit your situation. if you are on a small feed in tariff (less than what you buy it for) then you need to try to do as many of your electricity using chores whilst the sun is high in the sky. if you are on a larger feed in tariff (more than what you pay) then it may be better to try to minimise your electricity usage during daylight hours and do washing etc at night, to maximise the amount of solar going to the grid, and maiximise your return.

of course, everyone in the house needs to be on board, and believe me, this is the hard part.

i've learnt not to question why my wife does some things the way she does.

[Stagg]

There was a website which I used and printed out as a reference to customers in my last job, which was just how carbon neutral the panels are (taking into consideration manufacture, transport, packaging, recyclability etc) and instead of an acutal number figure, it was just a percentage, so for example a brand would offset anywhere from 0% too 100+ % of their total CO2 production. Can't remember off the top of my head but I should be able to find it but I would imagine finding the exact number figure of carbon produced by each panel may be a daunting task and embarking on such a mission may well mean you are calling the engineering department of the brand directly.

Which funnily enough I had to do for a Tender last year, and call the Apricus solar hot water engineers both in their Sydney office, and then call their China factory. Definitely not something that would be easy to find!



Also Poppa good work on the carbon offset too!! The interesting thing about solar that I would always tell customers is that the upfront cost of the system is soon forgotten, although that planet saving warm-fuzzy feeling is something that stays with you for the life of the system. People are finding now that bought systems 3-4 years ago are forgetting about what they paid for the system, and they are still glad they went for it.

I had a customer from WAY back in 2010 who actually called me the other day, this customer paid upwards of $15k for a 3kW SunPower + SMA system, so this was back when I still lived in Perth. He actually called me to thank me for giving transparent information on the nature of the industry and the importance of quality especially in such a new industry.

He also said that him and his work mate both bought systems at the same time (which he didn't tell me at the time), he went with me, and his mate went with SolarGain and got a 3kW system with SolarFun panels and a Latronics inverter. His mate paid less than half of what he did for the inverter.

His mates system worked ok for a little over a year, then the panels started yellowing, the production started dropping like a stone, the inverter started turning on at 11am instead of 6-7am in summer when the system was new, and his whole system went kaput the other day (multiple fried junction boxes).

Honestly, it gave me that warm fuzzy feeling knowing that I am doing the right and ethical thing by my customers, and sticking to my guns and believing in what I was selling regardless of how much money talks with such a product. His system hadn't even paid itself off and yet he said he was still so happy with it; and the best part was that fact that he had already stopped crunching numbers on the system because producing free power from the sun gave him a much more gratifying feeling.





I've also applied for a Tender in my current job for a new town center here in Melbourne, the new buildings VEET requirements means for either a complete supply and install of LED downlights and bay lights, OR a 60kW Solar PV system, so come monday morning I'm back at it and looking at these plans for the new town center, and give a cost benefit analysis between LED lighting or Solar PV, so I'm still out and about in the industry which is awesome, just now I'm also calling retail shops for supply and install of these products too!

[Franco Cozzo]

Any of you guys done solar installations on vehicles? I'm looking at chucking a few panels on top of the back of my GMC Sierra ambulance.

Is something you use on a house different to an "automotive" solar panel?

Looking at them feeding into an auxilary deep cycle battery, probably 150Ah, which will also be getting charged by both alternators when driving.

The amount of trees and plants I have on my property would probably make up for 50% of my towns carbon emissions LOL, its like a jungle in a rural housing estate here.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Any of you guys done solar installations on vehicles? I'm looking at chucking a few panels on top of the back of my GMC Sierra ambulance.

Is something you use on a house different to an "automotive" solar panel?

Looking at them feeding into an auxilary deep cycle battery, probably 150Ah, which will also be getting charged by both alternators when driving.

The amount of trees and plants I have on my property would probably make up for 50% of my towns carbon emissions LOL, its like a jungle in a rural housing estate here.

the house panel is the same as your automotive one (sending 12v which is converted into 240v by your inverter) but you need a charge regulator

best to get advice from a dedicated 12v dealer or simply get some info off the web and parts from ebay

[poppa smurf]

it would appear that I have gained a reputation by some as a "do gooder greenie" and that I am using this forum as "my agenda"

let me categorically state here and now I am not a greenie and i have no agenda to push other than to help folks out of heavy power bills

I started this thread because of the result I got out of my system and would like others to benefit from my experience and hopefully get other more knowledgeable on board to enlighten people more

I hope the many people that are reading, and have read this thread gain some useful knowledge.......nothing more nothing less

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Any of you guys done solar installations on vehicles? I'm looking at chucking a few panels on top of the back of my GMC Sierra ambulance.

Is something you use on a house different to an "automotive" solar panel?

Looking at them feeding into an auxilary deep cycle battery, probably 150Ah, which will also be getting charged by both alternators when driving.

The amount of trees and plants I have on my property would probably make up for 50% of my towns carbon emissions LOL, its like a jungle in a rural housing estate here.

Good on ya for keeping the trees! I wish I had enough space for planting a huge rainforest myself, you should read some of the stories in India, men planting thousands of hectares 30 years ago and coming back and finding a lush rainforest if I ever end up living 100% hippy lifestyle it's what I'm doing lol

You can do so, you can actually use the same tin mounting brackets as on a colorbond roof but on your car (if you drill and bolt directly onto the roof). Otherwise, there is a type of bracket you can buy for mounting to roof rails.

Panel wise they are the same except a car panel will probably be physically smaller and therefore have a smaller output i.e. 130-150W panel for 2/3 the size kind of thing, and you can get specifically 12V panels too. As for that kind of gear I would recommend talking to someone like TJM or any other offroad/4X4 specialist, as they do these kinds of setups on hardcore offroaders quite often



Because I ride my motorbike every day I'm actually trying to find a motorcycle bag which has a top mounted solar panel, to charge my phone and work laptop in the bag while I ride around town too, good ones are hard to find!!

There was also a Lotus Exige which recently had the spray-on solar cells sprayed on the car, giving it a maroon-copper sort of colour, and it was also converted to EV and of course the paint charged the batteries both while driving and while parked, I'll see if I can find a link to it just fr a good read

[Charliewool]

1st time poster, but longtime watcher in this thread, and there is a mountain of info for us solar-illiterate dummies to wade through.
I've been contemplating this since moving into our new home 18 months ago, and since the power bills are going thru the roof.
I have a 2 storey home with 5 deg pitch colorbond clip-loc roof (house runs longways east west, so easy-peazy mounting panels in a northerly aspect) Available roof space is 14 metres x 8.8 metres, but 4 metres is already taken up right along one side with the pool solar matting/pipes. So still 14mts x 4-5 mts free.
My last quarter power bill tells me my average daily use was 26Kwh ($8.93 per day)
This was the summer bill when pool filtration, pool solar pump and house air conds would have been the big contributor, so that would be my "heavy bill"
Anyhow, I've been quoted $10,000 for a 5KW system with 20 "Trina" panels and a SMA Inverter. For extra $990 it was recommended to upgrade to a SMA Micro-Invertor.
Does this sound reasonable? Is 5KW too big?.. Small? And what is the benefit of a micro-invertor? Advice appreciated..

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

1st time poster, but longtime watcher in this thread, and there is a mountain of info for us solar-illiterate dummies to wade through.
I've been contemplating this since moving into our new home 18 months ago, and since the power bills are going thru the roof.
I have a 2 storey home with 5 deg pitch colorbond clip-loc roof (house runs longways east west, so easy-peazy mounting panels in a northerly aspect) Available roof space is 14 metres x 8.8 metres, but 4 metres is already taken up right along one side with the pool solar matting/pipes. So still 14mts x 4-5 mts free.
My last quarter power bill tells me my average daily use was 26Kwh ($8.93 per day)
This was the summer bill when pool filtration, pool solar pump and house air conds would have been the big contributor, so that would be my "heavy bill"
Anyhow, I've been quoted $10,000 for a 5KW system with 20 "Trina" panels and a SMA Inverter. For extra $990 it was recommended to upgrade to a SMA Micro-Invertor.
Does this sound reasonable? Is 5KW too big?.. Small? And what is the benefit of a micro-invertor? Advice appreciated..

Refer to post #1747, my two cents there

$10k for a 5kW Trina + SMA from my experience would be about $2600 below cost price, so if they are selling at that price my opinion is that it is not genuine SMA as there are chinese copies floating around Australia again. Ask them where they buy there inverter stock from, most sales staff are willing to tell you where but stating that it is from wholesalers as I always did If they boldly say "Germany" or cannot give a decisive answer, I would be quite suspicious.

Also on a 5deg roof I would recommend using pitching frames which would come at an additional cost. Also being a two storey to meet OH&S requirements they would have to use safety straps or scaffolding, which would also be at an additional cost.

Ask for some photos of some of their installs if they have any?

5kW system in Zone 4 (All except north Victoria, also south western WA and TAS) will generate just above 18kWh daily on average over summer AND winter.To match your daily kWh usage and have a greater chance at eliminating your bill you can opt for a larger than 5kW system, although you may well need prior approval from the electricity distributor in your area.

Micro-inverters are an inverter that is matched to the total max capacity of each individual panel i.e. instead of 20 x 250W panels wired into a 5000W inverter, you have 20 x 250W panels individually wired into 20 x 250W inverters. the benefit is that you can have 20 panels facing 20 different directions at no compromise to the performance of the system; and you can also add panels on in addition to additional micro inverters easily. The main benefit of micro inverters is their flexibility options with installation.

That said, SMA micro inverters do not exist so I am already suspicious that you are dealing with a misleading sales rep IMO, and I am alsosuspicious that the price of $10k for Trina + SMa is not actually with SMA. Quite often I come across this:

We supply Trina and SMA components. We can sell you a 5kW system for $10k installed

kind of thing, which is quite misleading because quite often it is not stated what components you are getting for a $10k system although they state they supply premium products. Be careful!

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

1st time poster, but longtime watcher in this thread, and there is a mountain of info for us solar-illiterate dummies to wade through.
I've been contemplating this since moving into our new home 18 months ago, and since the power bills are going thru the roof.
I have a 2 storey home with 5 deg pitch colorbond clip-loc roof (house runs longways east west, so easy-peazy mounting panels in a northerly aspect) Available roof space is 14 metres x 8.8 metres, but 4 metres is already taken up right along one side with the pool solar matting/pipes. So still 14mts x 4-5 mts free.
My last quarter power bill tells me my average daily use was 26Kwh ($8.93 per day)
This was the summer bill when pool filtration, pool solar pump and house air conds would have been the big contributor, so that would be my "heavy bill"
Anyhow, I've been quoted $10,000 for a 5KW system with 20 "Trina" panels and a SMA Inverter. For extra $990 it was recommended to upgrade to a SMA Micro-Invertor.
Does this sound reasonable? Is 5KW too big?.. Small? And what is the benefit of a micro-invertor? Advice appreciated..

not sure about the price on that one, stagg says too cheap then I'd believe him

just as a reference, comparison and not necessarily recommendation try these folks http://www.energymatters.com.au

do a bit of research on installers in your area and knock on a couple of doors of those who have solar, I find most of these people very eager to talk about their system and installers

5kw would not be too small........

dont be afraid to ask questions on here and out there, it's a large investment and not to be taken lightly

we have some good folks in here who will have the answers for you

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

do a bit of research on installers in your area and knock on a couple of doors of those who have solar, I find most of these people very eager to talk about their system and installers

Yes yes oh so very much yes!!!

Oh so definitely worth the time to do this!

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by Stagg

Refer to post #1747, my two cents there

$10k for a 5kW Trina + SMA from my experience would be about $2600 below cost price, so if they are selling at that price my opinion is that it is not genuine SMA as there are chinese copies floating around Australia again. Ask them where they buy there inverter stock from, most sales staff are willing to tell you where but stating that it is from wholesalers as I always did If they boldly say "Germany" or cannot give a decisive answer, I would be quite suspicious.

Also on a 5deg roof I would recommend using pitching frames which would come at an additional cost. Also being a two storey to meet OH&S requirements they would have to use safety straps or scaffolding, which would also be at an additional cost.

Ask for some photos of some of their installs if they have any?

5kW system in Zone 4 (All except north Victoria, also south western WA and TAS) will generate just above 18kWh daily on average over summer AND winter.To match your daily kWh usage and have a greater chance at eliminating your bill you can opt for a larger than 5kW system, although you may well need prior approval from the electricity distributor in your area.

Micro-inverters are an inverter that is matched to the total max capacity of each individual panel i.e. instead of 20 x 250W panels wired into a 5000W inverter, you have 20 x 250W panels individually wired into 20 x 250W inverters. the benefit is that you can have 20 panels facing 20 different directions at no compromise to the performance of the system; and you can also add panels on in addition to additional micro inverters easily. The main benefit of micro inverters is their flexibility options with installation.

That said, SMA micro inverters do not exist so I am already suspicious that you are dealing with a misleading sales rep IMO, and I am alsosuspicious that the price of $10k for Trina + SMa is not actually with SMA. Quite often I come across this:



kind of thing, which is quite misleading because quite often it is not stated what components you are getting for a $10k system although they state they supply premium products. Be careful!

Thanks for that!
Ok, Just spoke again to the guy selling...

If I went for normal inverter it was SMA..
If I go for micro-inverters they are A.P.S. YC500A... 25 yr warranty, remote monitoring..
The panels are TDG-PV TalentE 250w.. Which are "SIMILAR" to Trina??
But apparently warranty backed by Zurich?
Yes, pitching frames extra..
No scaffolding as roof has a parapet wall surround.
STC is $2640 (which he gets)
$9900 Plus $990 for micro inverters, Plus pitching frames.

Company is: National Power Busters

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

The panels are TDG-PV TalentE 250w.. Which are "SIMILAR" to Trina??
Company is: National Power Busters

Nailed it!


Most panels are backed by a German warranty. After 5 minutes online TDG is a Chinese minerals company recently getting into Solar PV.

This company has a PDF download of the panels specs

http://www.macfarlanegenerators.com....50-Solar-Panel

And here is a link to the address of the factory and company details

http://en.tdgcore.com/findlinkAction.action




Here is a link to the address from the Chairman of TDG, I feel like something got lost in translation...

http://en.tdgcore.com/foreground/aboutPage.jsp





Anyway I'm not going to lie it's a cheap price there are alarm bells going off in my head with that mob already!

[Charliewool]

Thanks Stagg.... A wealth of info
Are these panels any bloody good though??

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Thanks Stagg.... A wealth of info
Are these panels any bloody good though??

Probably not IMO. I've never heard of them.

This part gets a bit confusing for some folk here though. Even though the panels are financially backed by Zurich, you will still have to make potential warranty claims through the factory direct. Should the company be bankrupt and you have a warranty issue, a CEC accredited electrician is able to determine the cause of fault, and if the cause of fault is manufacturing fault then you are reimbursed by Zurich.

Basically let's say there is a warranty call:

- You call TDG in China and send the panel back to China at your expense
- Manufacturing fault is found, you are sent a new panel. If it is not a manufacturing fault, you are sent back the same panel.
- Manufacturing fault is found and TDg no longer exists, a CEC electrician finds the fault with the panel, if manufacturing fault is found you are reimbursed the value of the panel, if no manufacturing fault is found then you keep the faulty panel.

also this is assuming that the panel warranty is not locally backed by a local wholesaler and is instead imported directly by the retailer; and at a low price like that it is highly likely, however I may be wrong and it may be worth a call to find out.


I would still stick to my guns with brands such as Trina, Yingli, SunPower, Suntech. Shop around within a particular group of brands for the best price i.e. call ten shops which stock a particular brand, instead of ten retailers whom you found advertisements for (i that makes any sense lol)

[Charliewool]

Will do Stagg........ And thank you once again

[Charliewool]

Suntech down the guggler?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/carbo...411-2hmio.html

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Suntech down the guggler?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/carbo...411-2hmio.html

I sure hope not! they're a far too reputable and ethical brand to be going down like this.

If they really are going down, I am confident the reason they are going down is because a lot of folks buying solar panels are mislead into what is a premium panel and what is not!

[Charliewool]

One of the world's richest men also thinks Suntechs worth saving...
http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment...-solar-company

[poppa smurf]

just got a letter from Lumo stating that I have not been receiving my "early bird" payment incentive (pay the account fast and get a discount)

because my account has never been in arrears and always paid on time I am entitled to this discount, ......now it has been backdated and credited to my account

so what this means is that in the 12 months that I have had solar on I have gained well over $1,000 in credit ......after paying all power costs and charges

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

just got a letter from Lumo stating that I have not been receiving my "early bird" payment incentive (pay the account fast and get a discount)

because my account has never been in arrears and always paid on time I am entitled to this discount, ......now it has been backdated and credited to my account

so what this means is that in the 12 months that I have had solar on I have gained well over $1,000 in credit ......after paying all power costs and charges

Electricity retailer giving good service...

I can die happy now

[poppa smurf]

yes!..... surprised the buggery out of me as well!.........I study my accounts pretty close but hadn't picked that one up

[stevejg33]

Congrats Poppa, I might have to enquire with them.
I'm with Truenergy/Energyaustralia (whatever they are called) & I can't even get an account. They are due to read my meter on Tuesday & I still haven't received an account for last October or January, that will be 3 meter reads with no bill.
I have my gas with them as well & there is no problem receiving the gas account.
What a bunch of clowns.

[poppa smurf]

yes!.....when i got solar placed, up and running it took me ages to get an account out of them, I reckon i was a couple of cycles behind come to think of it......even now they run consistently a month behind, but Lumo are very good and very easy to speak to

I used to be very diligent in keeping up with my account and could tell you absolutely everything about it but I dont trouble so much now......new medication and busier lifestyle has left the old brain box a bit fuzzy......too many mistakes

it pays to keep a very close eye on your account and its figures......one feller here had an account for over $5,000, the meter reader put a digit in the wrong place or misplaced a number

so easy to do, but if you have some idea of your daily usage and average account cost then you have the weapons to fight the wayward bills

I've had pretty good offers from Origin energy with a gas/power combination yielding very good discounts but the fine print reveals this only applies over the first 12 month period then they revert to pretty high tariffs

the old saying "buyer beware" comes into play......