All things Solar (merged threads)

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by prydey

i don't mean to be offensive, you just seem to think that the dollar isn't a major drive in industry.

people want to be seen to be doing the right thing but when it comes to implementation, the dollar still wins out.

Not for long in Victoria, I'm changing that

[Stagg]

I mean seriously, when you meet one of the directors of Australias largest PV company, and he says to you that he knows they are selling an inferior product and changing peoples expectations of the industry, also knowing that what they are selling has no consideration for the environment even though the environment is the reason Solar PV was invented...

I mean a lot of folk will walk out of the industry and say "It's too hard and you just can't win" because they can't win a fight against a giant like TVS. I've got a chance, an actual real chance to push this multimillion dollar cowboy business out of the commercial sector completely. Am I going to fight for the industry? I sure am!

[prydey]

i wasn't referring to TVS

[poppa smurf]

installs and sales are still going strong here......I reckon (very rough workshop analyses here) but probably 10% or less are doing it for the "feel good factor" financial wins I'm afraid

most of the cowboys have been pushed out with reputable, well established companies taking the sales and install on as a "side line" income

[Matty4]

Ok, I'm after some opinions on a quote I have just received for an installation.
I have 2 options from the one company that interests me.

First is a 5kw system consisting of 20 x 250w Jinko panels with a Samil 5kw inverter for $8095 installed.

Second is a 6.25kw system consisting of 25 x 250w Jinko panels and 2 Samil inverters (3kw and 3.3kw) installed for $10126.

Both systems will be installed on my shed and both will fit comfortably.
I've heard of Samil inverters but not Jinko panels.
A bit of internet reading has opinions both ways on the panels.

Thoughts?

Cheers,
Matt

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Matty4

Ok, I'm after some opinions on a quote I have just received for an installation.
I have 2 options from the one company that interests me.

First is a 5kw system consisting of 20 x 250w Jinko panels with a Samil 5kw inverter for $8095 installed.

Second is a 6.25kw system consisting of 25 x 250w Jinko panels and 2 Samil inverters (3kw and 3.3kw) installed for $10126.

Both systems will be installed on my shed and both will fit comfortably.
I've heard of Samil inverters but not Jinko panels.
A bit of internet reading has opinions both ways on the panels.

Thoughts?


Cheers,
Matt

SamilPower inverters have a very loud hum and have no Australian backed warranty, if there is an issue you will have to call China directly and ship the inverter back at your own expense.

Jinko, they are an ok performing panel and seem to have a reasonable level of reliability, also the single importer of Jinko panels is Power Partners with a head office in Sydney, who back the product locally.

Jinko however are one of the top ten most carbon intensive PV manufacturers worldwide so I personally wouldn't go for them on a moral stance.

Still try to stick to the brands Trina, Yingli, SunPower, and SunTech. Inverter wise, try to stick to SunnyBoy, Aurora, or EverSolar.

[Matty4]

Originally Posted by Stagg

SamilPower inverters have a very loud hum and have no Australian backed warranty, if there is an issue you will have to call China directly and ship the inverter back at your own expense.

The hum doesn't bother me as the inverter will be installed on a sub board in the shed which is approx. 15 metres from the house.
The quote stated that they are a service centre for both the panels and the inverters so if there are any issues they can be quickly rectified.
What this exactly entails I don't know yet. Will ask that question.

Cheers.

[stevejg33]

Originally Posted by stevejg33

Call me a little sceptical if you must, bit it seems a little odd that then you are amounting credits the power companies seem to take their time sending out an invoice but when owing them money or you are eating into your credits (eg. over winter) the invoice comes a lot quicker?????

The reason I say this is that, as in my previous post I haven't received a bill in a long time but last winter as I was eating into my credits I received the bill within 2 weeks of the meter being read (last July) & that was my last bill.

Since putting solar on in June 2011 my accounts have been
June, solar installed, 2/3rds thru a billing cycle - first account received in November (5 months after meter read)
Next account - 2 days later (5 weeks after read) & the due date was the same date that I actually received the bill in the post, WTF??
Next 2 accounts - 4 months after read
Last July's account - 2 weeks after read
None since

There is just no consistency. Before solar, my bills were all regular & on time just as my gas bill is currently (with the same provider as my power)

Hi guys, finally got some invoices, now, to say that I'm a little miffed is an understatement.
Received 3 power invoices on the same day in 3 separate envelopes, (a little wasteful). Thought I might be getting last Octobers, Januarys & this Aprils reads but no, that would be too easy...
Invoice no.1, a re send of last Julys bill, of which I received 10 months ago, but they recalculated it & gave me an extra $55 credit ???
Invoice no.2, Octobers bill, I read my meter, work out my sums & I estimated that I owed them about $60 after eating thru my credits over winter but they worked out somehow that I made power & I was $300 in credit.
Invoice no.3, Januarys bill, made credits as per normal, with one exception,

Can anyone tell me what a "Guaranteed Service Level Adjustment" is please? I received this included in Januarys bill, with extra credits worth $256.20 next to it on top of what I had made.

[poppa smurf]

steve.....ring them up and get them to explain it to you in a way that can be understood....then send out an account showing it in plain english

the old "baffle them with bull" is alive and well

[prydey]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

the old "baffle them with bull" is alive and well

yeah, many companies, not just electricity, work on the premise that people don't want to appear dumb so they won't question things that appear 'technical' etc.

[poppa smurf]

it's a bit beyond that, the companies make the account very hard for older or the less educated people to read, too confusing so it is not questioned.

most older folk give up and just pay it.....

[MDS69]

Sorry guys 65 pages is a bit much to back through but does anyone have any experience or feedback on Mark Group in Sydney. I am having a consultation with them in a few days and wanted to a bit of homework prior. TIA.

[xisled]

Can anyone tell me what a "Guaranteed Service Level Adjustment" is please? I received this included in Januarys bill, with extra credits worth $256.20 next to it on top of what I had made.

This is also known as a GSL. Your distributor has targets it needs to make when supply power to your home. It is compensation for power being out for a period of time or when you have had x amount of blackouts in a 12 month period. Depending what distributor you are with, will depends on the target and what compensation you would receive for having black outs.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by MDS69

Sorry guys 65 pages is a bit much to back through but does anyone have any experience or feedback on Mark Group in Sydney. I am having a consultation with them in a few days and wanted to a bit of homework prior. TIA.

There isn't much to discredit mark groups quality and products, they do have good stuff and they do use fully qualified electricians on all their jobs.

The one downside I think I would find with the Mark group is that they aren't Australian owned, and they have been selling old stock at a rock bottom price for quite some time now, earlier in the year everyone was confused and the assumption was made that they are clearing out all their stock in preparation to pack up shop and move over to Europe. That may be wildly wrong, but they have been selling stock at below cost price for close to 6 months now.

I've seen two of their jobs and were not bad quality at all, nor were the panels inferior quality.

[MDS69]

Thanks for the reply Stagg.
So there would be nothing wrong with the old stock. Is it just old stock or older technology.
Another question is do you have to install smart meters or can you have a 4th meter (I have 3 plug ins for 3 phase, no off peak as I have gas) installed to record feed in.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by MDS69

Thanks for the reply Stagg.
So there would be nothing wrong with the old stock. Is it just old stock or older technology.
Another question is do you have to install smart meters or can you have a 4th meter (I have 3 plug ins for 3 phase, no off peak as I have gas) installed to record feed in.

Nothing wrong with the old stock, just old technology (they were selling BP 170W panels in January, most stopped selling those in 2011).

It is physically possible to have multiple meters installed at one property for electricity, as in have solar feeding through one meter and a separate meter importing power. It can and has been done before. However the issue is not the physical capability to it but rather any legislative issues with doing so, it's best to ask an electrician who works nearby that sort of question.

[Stagg]

Any folks here who are still adamant that money talks and that it all really comes down to price

SunPower (the worlds most expensive solar panel) was not able to supply their customers during Q1 of 2013, because demand was far greater than production.

http://www.pv-tech.org/news/sunpower...2d3e69-1955433


Most of this was in Europe and America

I still however stand by the fact that a lot of these cheaper products being imported into Australia, literally are because we are getting sloppy seconds from what solar companies send over to the EU.

[Stagg]

Depending on how large quantities of Solar PV systems I can supply to Victoria at the moment as well, may justify becoming a wholesale importer and becoming an active warranty base for the imported panel. As most successful and reputabl brands are already in Australia, I may go into discussions with First Solar in the US to begin using their panels here in Australia, or potentially Nanosolar, as both brands are highly regarded in the US and EU however are not available here.

So again for as long as I can help it, I'm going to be doing my best to bring a higher level of quality products into Australia and hopefully start winning market share from the cheaper and less reputable brands.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Stagg

Any folks here who are still adamant that money talks and that it all really comes down to price

SunPower (the worlds most expensive solar panel) was not able to supply their customers during Q1 of 2013, because demand was far greater than production.

http://www.pv-tech.org/news/sunpower...2d3e69-1955433


Most of this was in Europe and America

I still however stand by the fact that a lot of these cheaper products being imported into Australia, literally are because we are getting sloppy seconds from what solar companies send over to the EU.

there is no question that financial savings are the main drive in solar installation in this area, I have just passed on my 170th design on to the solar sales/installation team for install at the soonest possible convenience.

the last 20 were simply because of the coming 2% rise in power charge which will affect the consumers in the coming fiscal year, this is on top of an 11% rise last year.

these rises are "supply" costs passed on by the owner of the lines for supposed "upgrades" that have yet to be seen!

this does not take into account the obscene increases we have had in generation charges.

I keep saying it, folks here can no longer afford the bills, this is one way of cutting them back a bit

I have yet to have 1 couple say to me that they are installing solar because it is the "right" or "green" thing to do......although I do get a small fuzzy feeling of green energy, my driving force was financial as are most!

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

there is no question that financial savings are the main drive in solar installation in this area, I have just passed on my 170th design on to the solar sales/installation team for install at the soonest possible convenience.

the last 20 were simply because of the coming 2% rise in power charge which will affect the consumers in the coming fiscal year, this is on top of an 11% rise last year.

these rises are "supply" costs passed on by the owner of the lines for supposed "upgrades" that have yet to be seen!

this does not take into account the obscene increases we have had in generation charges.

I keep saying it, folks here can no longer afford the bills, this is one way of cutting them back a bit

I have yet to have 1 couple say to me that they are installing solar because it is the "right" or "green" thing to do......although I do get a small fuzzy feeling of green energy, my driving force was financial as are most!

Have a read of the article about SunPower Poppa, you'll see that SunPower's predominant supplies were used for utility-scale projects as opposed to domestic projects; completely different ball game.

While it is fact that the monetary figures of solar PV are the reason that these 170 households had gone for solar which I'm not denying, it's more the fact that the price of a brand of panel such as SunPower is seen as worth every cent, as the production could not even keep up with the supply (one project being a 65mW utility plant in France for example).

For example, France has an average electricity cost of about 14c per kWh. France also has import tariffs similar to that of Australia; meaning that the price of a SunPower panel in France is likely to be similar to the price of a sunPower panel in Australia. Yet they just bought a 65mW utility scale system!


Anyway I might be a little too bold to think this, but... If European countries pay premium for panels and inverters just like Australia pays premium, and when some (not all) European countries actually have a lower cost of electricity compared to Australia, and yet you see almost 100% absolute premium quality gear installed on both domestic and commercial applications, then why must Australia be so different?



FYI the payback for a solar PV system in Europe is between 15-20 years and they all still think it's worth it!

It might be the fact that the EU ha a carbon tax that actually works, dare I say!

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1...ound-the-world




For comparisons sake, have a look at this comparison website stating the average prices of oil, gas and electricity over the EU.

http://www.energy.eu/

[poppa smurf]

I'm barely keeping up with local goings on to try outside of my little world......I'm busier than a one legged man in an **** kicking contest!

however I see the saudi's are not going solar but are opting for huge floating solar/steam generators placed on huge manmade "islands"

I am not sure if solar will be as prevalent in the future as it is now, port augusta had been looking into solar/steam, storing the heat in salt to keep the generators going 24/7, with acres of desert being covered in mirrors

whatever comes I think it will be a mixture of many things with solar making only a small percentage of future energy needs

[Stagg]

Google searches for those who want to feel optimistic about the future of renewable energy

- Solar Power Tower

- Bloom Box

- Nanosolar

- BIPV (Building Integrated PhotoVoltaic)

- Butterfly Wing Solar Cells

[Stagg]

Little off topic, but something to tug on the heart strings of all you grown family men

http://ecowatch.com/2013/beautiful-p...dren-of-china/

In the last four months, pollution levels in China have climbed to levels never before recorded in the history of our planet. More than 1.2 million Chinese per year are dying early due to pollution while birth defects soar.

Again sorry for being off topic, but i still encourage everyone to do everything they can, above an beyond solar, to produce less carbon and waste, as globally, it is at a point where we are damaging future generations!

[SPArKy_Dave]

Originally Posted by Stagg

Now this is coming from the BDM of Australias largest installer. As for now, I can confidently say that TVS is attempting to drive the industry into means of operation that I see have no interest in the environment at all, and now it's becoming personal with these guys.


I can tell everyone here now, although I'm not meeting householders face to face, I'm still out here doing my best to keep the industry pure. Folks like me are far and few in the industry but we are still here.


I'm going to potentially be at a great advantage in the coming months in the industry, with multiple councils consulting with myself regarding tender structures for large scale projects. I have already given them word that these tender weighted totals will have a minimum on price and an emphasis on sustainability, ethics, and environmental impacts of the projects.

If I can reach every single council in Victoria, and help convince them to structure all tenders to worry less about price than sustainability, I can guarantee, that all cheap solar businesses will be pushed out of the large scale commercial market instantly. I have the opportunity to do so. Call me hot headed, call me arrogant, but I believe in the industry and I'm not going to let any multi million dollar el cheapo dodgy solar mob get in my way or taint the industry, it's time to turn this around!!

Stagg,

I reckon you should get together with a mate of mine John, who's in a similar position to you.
He's feels exactly the same as you with the industry, and is massively enthusiastic.

Only difference, is he's dedicated himself to solving the existing installation problems of the solar industry, through engineering/designing and manufacturing better products.
(call him the mad inventer maybe)

The way his mind works is just facinating.

[Spinner77]

World glut. Bosch getting out of photovoltaics. Impact on price?

http://www.bosch-solarenergy.com.au/...c7f7ab690b279b

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Spinner77

World glut. Bosch getting out of photovoltaics. Impact on price?

http://www.bosch-solarenergy.com.au/...c7f7ab690b279b

companies and shareholders have to continue making ever increasing profits, with China a huge competitor and people willing to accept the obvious shortcomings, reputable constructors and installers have no choice but to close up shop

[MDS69]

OK my AFF Solar Brains Trust friends.
We had the solar sales consultant come around over the weekend. He presented a good sales pitch and seemed to know his stuff. Didn't over sell by bagging the oppositions just stated his companies history and future. After looking at different options he recommended a 5.5kW system comprising 22 x 250W Renesolar panels and a Fronius inverter. We would need to go to smart metering apparently and I wasn't to keen on that but that is another story for another day. Anyway the quoted price is $12,504.00 inc GST for a tiled 2 storey roof inc meter install. We apparently qualify for a Diamond Energy contract of $0.20/kW feed in for 2 years.

By going over our electricity bills we are using an avg of 22kW per day. This is averaged out over the year.

Now at the time of the quote as mentioned above we were recommended a 5.5kW system. This unfortunately will not fit on the northern apsect of the roof (side of the house) and the recommendation was to slpit 11 panels on the north and the other 11 panels on the western aspect which is the street front which I am not happy with.

Now considering the above and after sleeping on it and talking to the wife since the quote can anyone reply with why if the western aspect is considered good enough for half the system then why couldn't the eastern aspect (rear of house) be just as a good an alternative.
Another question is whilst driving around the local area with similar size houses with what you would think would be similar enery usage why do 4 out of 5 houses have between 6 and 12 panels yet our salesman strongly recommended 22 panels. Is it just the sales aspect and likely commission or are the other installs undersized and just what the homeowners could afford.

Now an alternative is we can install 3.25kW worth of panels by putting 11 on the big roof facing north and 2 panels on the garage also facing north. Is this a decent size system considering our avg daily consumption.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by MDS69

OK my AFF Solar Brains Trust friends.
We had the solar sales consultant come around over the weekend. He presented a good sales pitch and seemed to know his stuff. Didn't over sell by bagging the oppositions just stated his companies history and future. After looking at different options he recommended a 5.5kW system comprising 22 x 250W Renesolar panels and a Fronius inverter. We would need to go to smart metering apparently and I wasn't to keen on that but that is another story for another day. Anyway the quoted price is $12,504.00 inc GST for a tiled 2 storey roof inc meter install. We apparently qualify for a Diamond Energy contract of $0.20/kW feed in for 2 years.


sounds like a good mob, I wont comment on the price as I dont have the figures in front of me


By going over our electricity bills we are using an avg of 22kW per day. This is averaged out over the year.

Now at the time of the quote as mentioned above we were recommended a 5.5kW system. This unfortunately will not fit on the northern apsect of the roof (side of the house) and the recommendation was to slpit 11 panels on the north and the other 11 panels on the western aspect which is the street front which I am not happy with.

Now considering the above and after sleeping on it and talking to the wife since the quote can anyone reply with why if the western aspect is considered good enough for half the system then why couldn't the eastern aspect (rear of house) be just as a good an alternative.

western sun is stronger therefore more solar generated.


Another question is whilst driving around the local area with similar size houses with what you would think would be similar enery usage why do 4 out of 5 houses have between 6 and 12 panels yet our salesman strongly recommended 22 panels. Is it just the sales aspect and likely commission or are the other installs undersized and just what the homeowners could afford.

my best guess is part monetary and partial depletion of power cost, why not knock on a couple of doors and simply ask why they settled on that size, who installed the system, are they happy with it, what power are they producing

Now an alternative is we can install 3.25kW worth of panels by putting 11 on the big roof facing north and 2 panels on the garage also facing north. Is this a decent size system considering our avg daily consumption.

you cant split the system, it would have to be two installs with separate fuse boxes and wiring

[MDS69]

^^^ Hi Dave. I can't remember if it was this inverter or another one the solar man had in his range but it can do 2 strings of panels. Well the way he explained it you could have two segments and if one string got shaded it wouldn't pull down the system.

[poppa smurf]

G'day mate.... your installer would know more about it than I would,

Matty, our sparky, who does most of the installs (meters) around here stated the system must be on the same structure as the panels.

EM solar said the same.......but if you can do it well all good, things may have changed