All things Solar (merged threads)

[bungers]

Originally Posted by Spinner77

http://www.smh.com.au/business/carbo...508-2j7df.html

I went with euro solar only because they could offer me the best price on the panels and invertor that I wanted. Got to say was very happy their installation (was done by local sparkys). They did try to steer me to other panels and invertor, but already knew what I wanted (brother is a installer in another state).

Sent from a bar somewhere

[Stagg]

Anyone here running an electric hot water system off solar electricity?

My understanding is that in Melbourne at least, the rules prevent you from having a conventional electric hot water system if natural gas is available; but you can get an exemption - how, I don't know.

I am not attracted by the dedicated thermal solar hot water systems, on account of cost and stories of problems. I am unsure whether the heat pump solutions are any good, or, as I fear, a technology in progress, e.g. I have seen reports of problems with noise.

However, I am worried about the likely price hikes down the road, as China's appetite for our gas increases. It is easy to predict that the Federal Treasury and Productivity Commission will say everyone will be better off by forcing consumers to pay the world price for gas.

At present we have a natural gas hot water system (only 136 litres, but we get by). How much power, in general terms, would a conventional electric system of that size be likely to use?

Yep Solar Hot Water is something that I learned everything about from the best in Victoria! The old welshman was an absolutely amazing wealth of knowledge on solar hot water.

He showed me the solar hot water system he built himself, two copper flat panel collectors he had silversmithed himself, and using a copper tank as well. Solar hot water isn't something you buy based on a payback period, because it isn't as attractive as solar PV (payback usually around 10-15 years for a system that won't break down in 3 years).

If you are game, there are a lot of DIY solar hot water system guides online, one of which I had helped with and it cost a few hundred dollars. That's if you're game though! If you are, I recommend looking up the following google searches:

- Thermosiphon hot water systems
- Polyurethane insulation
- Spot welding/silversmithing
- Copper radiators

All of which are key requirements for a solar hot water system. Otherwise, some reputable, notable brands as follows:

- Edwards
- Solahart
- Apricus
- Aquamax
- Sola-Kleen
- Solar Lord
- Smalls Solar

Keep in mind though regarding dedicated solar thermal hot water systems, a solar hot water system is defined as a system that will give you more than 60% of free hot water, when compared with a comparable size gas or electric hot water system. Solar hot water is one of those things where the horror stories don't EVER branch from factory faults or poor design, all problems are from poor installations; and poor installations are everywhere because people are trying to cut costs of the systems. Notable common problems:

- Rehau/plastic piping' this causes the pipes to melt in summer with intense sun, causng leaks through peoples roofs. It cuts hundreds off the cost compared to copper pipes; make sure you use copper instead of rehau.
- Standard hot water system tempering valves; these are about $100 cheaper than a solar rated tempering valve, and the problems that stem from this is after summer, there is faulty blending of hot/cold water meaning that people are left with no hot water. Not so good. This is also avoided by installing the proper tempering valve.
- Poor collector positioning; many people are happy to install solar hot water panels flat on a roof, or south facing, because of how the panels may look on the front of the house or visible from the street etc. This is avoided by installing them at the proper angle and orientation. Without proper orientation or angle, it means the system won't be heating water in summer, meaning gas boosting in summer etc.

Please, please, please, if you do go for a solar hot water system, don't buy a Chromagen system, don't buy a hills, and don't buy any brand that I have not mentioned. Otherwise, you'll have problems and then be turned off solar hot water.



Also, yes, there is legislation that in a single dwelling unit, with natural gas available on the street, when you must replace the hot water system you are required to go gas hot water. If you are living in a multiple dwelling unit, or commercial property, you are exempt. Law is law no matter what though.

I also highly recommend you not switch to electric hot water from gas, the running cost is 8 fold and without a twin element electric hot water (with a running cost 10 fold) you have a high chance of running out of hot water.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by sgt_doofey

Just remember that government can repeal or amend any legislation they put in place in the first place...

Which they have done, with every previous government scheme. They have all ended or been reduced earlier than the legislated date. Literally, every, single, one! Think of the pink batts, and the federal rebate changing from electric hot water too.

At the moment, the state government here in Victoria is going to be eliminating the Sustainability Victoria Rebate very soon, which is when changing from gas storage to gas boosted solar hot water, which is anywhere from $1100 to $1500. Anyone with an old or dying gas hot water system I would recommend to start shopping around before they do scrap that rebate, which is literally any day now that they decide to!

[Spinner77]

I also highly recommend you not switch to electric hot water from gas

Thanks.

My point, however, is this. If I have a big enough solar electricity system built, then why not run a conventional electric hot water system from it?

That's why I am curious about the the no. of kWhrs/day needed to run an electric hot water system.

[Barnaby]

Originally Posted by Spinner77

That's why I am curious about the the no. of kWhrs/day needed to run an electric hot water system.

Lots...

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Barnaby

Lots...

Originally Posted by Spinner77

Thanks.

My point, however, is this. If I have a big enough solar electricity system built, then why not run a conventional electric hot water system from it?

That's why I am curious about the the no. of kWhrs/day needed to run an electric hot water system.

Yep, a 315 litre twin element electric hot water system, brand new, used by a family of 4, will chew through anywhere from 12-15kWh every day (based on length of showers, using hot water to wash clothes etc) and to cover that you would need at least a 3.5kW PV system; not to mention people have longer showers in winter, and PV systems make less in winter as well.


A lot of people think about the idea, and in theory it works, and it really would work, however keep in mind a solar hot water system required only two hot water collectors on the roof, as compared to at least 14 panels.

[Spinner77]

solar hot water system required only two hot water collectors on the roof, as compared to at least 14 panels

Brilliant. I really like the way you expressed that!

I'm convinced.

So what are the quality brands/models for gas-boosted systems I should look at?

It seems to me that if the thing has to last a long time, you can't look at the cheapest, regardless of the warranty.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Spinner77

Brilliant. I really like the way you expressed that!

I'm convinced.

So what are the quality brands/models for gas-boosted systems I should look at?

It seems to me that if the thing has to last a long time, you can't look at the cheapest, regardless of the warranty.

gas boosted, evacuated tube system.

Logistically speaking a flat panel collector (2 panels equalling 2m x 2m on the roof) means if one breaks you have to replace the whole panel. Comparatively, a 30 tube collector (also 2m x 2m) if one tube breaks you only have to replace one tube and don't need a plumber to replace it, you can do it yourself.

The gas boosters with evacuated tube systems are continuous flow gas boosters (instantaneous) and most come in the size of 20lpm or 26lpm boosters.

Again because I have no presence in the domestic industry anymore, I'm happy to recommend my old competitors hahaha. Talk to the G store for an Apricus solar hot water system. Apricus has amazing after sales, readily available stock and parts as well, and the only ever use Grundfos circulation pumps. The benefit of the G store is that they used to buy off my old account manager and they also used my old plumbers; but the downside was they made orders from Apricus of minimum 100 units at a time, and got a ridiculously cheap price for what is actually an awesome service.

Their plumber is Offtap Plumbing, and I have never seen a neater and quality installation like the Offtap boys do, watching the install a few systems is like surgery! If it's a price cheaper than the G store, then there is something that they are not installing properley. Definitely G store for best value for money.

[poppa smurf]

hmmm! I wonder if this is the future here...... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...834446588.html

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

hmmm! I wonder if this is the future here...... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...834446588.html

That makes me happy but also cringe at the same time!

Higher import tariffs will level out the playing field for European manufactured against chinese manufactured products, but it also suggests that the chinese companies will further cut corners where they can to reduce costs!

Could go either way methinks.

[poppa smurf]

usually if one country, many in the case of the union, starts placing tariffs in that order of magnitude another country see's the profit and follows suit.

Chinese panels may not be the greatest but it lets a lot of folks into solar that would normally not be able to afford higher priced ones.

another player taken out of the solar industry, good or bad, means less competition and of course higher prices for all.

I see this as a sad day for solar all round.

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

usually if one country, many in the case of the union, starts placing tariffs in that order of magnitude another country see's the profit and follows suit.

Chinese panels may not be the greatest but it lets a lot of folks into solar that would normally not be able to afford higher priced ones.

another player taken out of the solar industry, good or bad, means less competition and of course higher prices for all.

I see this as a sad day for solar all round.

I think what the industry needs is far tighter legislation. I mentioned earlier in the thread, a lot of companies in Australia to cut costs are using a team of 4 handymen to install a Solar PV system, and having a CEC accredited sparky to just look at the jobs and sign off; just as an example of what needs tighter legislation.

China still has issues honouring regulation that has been put in place as well. I also may have mentioned way back, that when product is exported from China, when it is in the container loads, only the first container is actually inspected by quality control. A lot of cheeky companies are manufacturing a single 40 foot container quality standard panels, with another 10 or 15 containers of sub-standard; fully knowing that there will be very little chance of any issues there.

That said, ironically, the import tariffs for Solar PV already in Australia here are significantly high. IT actually means that should there be no upfront cash incentives to householders, but at the same time there were no import tariffs, panels would actually be cheaper!

[poppa smurf]

the actual installation of the system panels could be done by monkeys, trained personnel needed only for the powering of the inverter and fuse arrangement......I had one lackey, one sparky and one boss (head sparky) here to place mine. we have since used this team in many other installs.

I placed the extra purlins and put up a large board to make it easy to mount the inverter and isolators.

seems to be the norm in most places........

but any increase in price of any panel is not in the interest of the industry or householder nor government......higher prices = less sales.

in the end we all lose.......which we are bound to do in the end anyway......somebody has to be the cash cows.

[prydey]

after not receiving a bill from AGL since october i thought i'd better give them a call to see what was going on. turns out they thought we'd gone to another supplier for some reason. long story short, they finally sent us 2 bills for the last 6 months.

i was expecting about a $50 credit. what i didn't take into account was the 'supply charge', so i ended up with a $50 bill. supply charge was $120ish over the 6 months, so i guess my calculations were around the mark.

before solar, i was using 18kwh/day average, give or take, so those 6 months would have totalled roughly $1100, so i guess its done ok. the winter months will be a different story but that was always going to be the case.

my system is 3.8kw in total however the panels had to be split between the north and west faces, so until about 11am-12pm it is essentially only about a 2-3kw system until the sun gets high enough to fully utilise the west facing panels. it is what it is.

so whilst i would have preferred no bill, i'm still over $1000 in front of where i would have been.

next 6 months will be pretty ordinary i'm guessing. struggling to average about 12kwh/day at the moment, compared with over 20kwh/day during the peak of summer. maybe another clean will be in order soon too.

[poppa smurf]

yeah! look I see that as a damn fine outcome, winter production will be down a bit but depending on the angle of your panels it may not differ greatly, your usage probably will.

I would expect a small account for winter but even that I would take as a win.....lot of folks out there who will go cold because they cant afford the power bill!

bloody shameful I say!

[Spinner77]

Is there really an import tariff in Australia on solar panels?

Who is actually manufacturing them here?

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Spinner77

Is there really an import tariff in Australia on solar panels?

Who is actually manufacturing them here?

the vast majority are imported and attract duties and tariffs, however there are a few australian manufacturers

A.S.M. (australian made solar) is one

but Tindo Kara are supposed to be the ducks guts with a 240 watt panel and a 20 year warranty with inbuilt micro inverter which means you could have an ever expanding system

[Spinner77]

The Tindo Karra certainly looks interesting, if pricey.

One point about solar that had not sunk in, for me anyway, is that conventional panels are running up to about 900 volts DC to the inverter. Just surfing around for a few minutes, I notice references to fire services possibly being unwilling to use hoses on these systems, on that account.

So to what extent does a standard system (not like the Tindo) affect house insurance. This could be an issue with townhouses, contiguous strata titles and body corporates that insure for a whole development.

Suppose our neighbour installs normal DC panels, and his home is connected to ours. What happens if his place catches fire on a sunny day? Will the firemen just let it burn to the ground? And our place with it!

Anyone have any experience in this area?

[poppa smurf]

pricey indeed but I guess we live in a "first world" country so we must pay for our standard of living.

if your unit catches fire for whatever reason the fireys are trained to isolate and extinguish most problems.....I'm pretty sure those in the know would have procedures in place just the same as if a power station was to catch fire.

you are protected.

[Spinner77]

you are protected.

Given the legendary generosity of Australian insurers, I'm just wondering if they will pay up, unless the panels are declared, and you pay their typically modest extra premium.

Just like modding your car!

[tonestar01]

I'm after a recommendation for purchasing a solar system in Brisbane Queensland? My knowledge on the subject is low. I am registered for the higher rate but apparently that offer finishes soon. "Origin" energy had an offer in the paper for a 1.6kw system for $2 490 whereby you can pay it off interest free for $99/mth. I phoned them up to enquire further and the fellow said I could get a 3.2kw system for $5 990 that I could pay off at $237/mth again interest free plus an initial $299 upfront fee. He also said that the agreement I have with ?"Energex" covers me for a system up to 4.6kw and therefore I might be better looking for a system closer to that larger size? I have a family of 5 with a large north facing gentle sloping colourbond roof. Let's say I'm paying off a system at $237/mth how much would I expect to save from having the system? So in reality how much would I be out of pocket each month?Hope you can help.

[supershifty]

Originally Posted by Spinner77

you are protected.

Given the legendary generosity of Australian insurers, I'm just wondering if they will pay up, unless the panels are declared, and you pay their typically modest extra premium.

Just like modding your car!

When I put solar on, I thought it would be a good idea to notify my home insurer - just in case it made any difference, much like if you made mods to your car. They said that it made no difference to them and thanked me for my enquiry. Dunno whether it makes any difference with your insurance company, but for the sake of a phone call it doesn't cost much to ask - better to know now, than find out that hard way! Insurance is one of those necessary evils in life.

Cheers!

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by tonestar01

I'm after a recommendation for purchasing a solar system in Brisbane Queensland? My knowledge on the subject is low. I am registered for the higher rate but apparently that offer finishes soon. "Origin" energy had an offer in the paper for a 1.6kw system for $2 490 whereby you can pay it off interest free for $99/mth. I phoned them up to enquire further and the fellow said I could get a 3.2kw system for $5 990 that I could pay off at $237/mth again interest free plus an initial $299 upfront fee. He also said that the agreement I have with ?"Energex" covers me for a system up to 4.6kw and therefore I might be better looking for a system closer to that larger size? I have a family of 5 with a large north facing gentle sloping colourbond roof. Let's say I'm paying off a system at $237/mth how much would I expect to save from having the system? So in reality how much would I be out of pocket each month?Hope you can help.

many questions to be answered here. but personally I would be going with as large as I can afford.

lets start at the beginning......how much power are you using on a daily basis

to get this figure, grab your power bill and look at the daily average.

if you have a 4.6 kilowatt system then you could expect in excess of 20 kilowatts per day averaged over the year.

I would think this would cover your bill and leave you with a credit each month, the amount of credit is determined by your amount of use, the amount of FIT and the capacity of your system in the given available light

so, in theory, all you would be paying from installation onwards is the repayment of the system.....no power bills

I suggest you read this thread from the start and arm yourself with a little knowledge with which to make an informed decision

[Franco Cozzo]

Are there any solar panels with a 12V output?

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Are there any solar panels with a 12V output?

only one answer......yes....all of them.......

you need a controller/charger if you wish to make use of this uncontrolled output!

[Franco Cozzo]

DC to DC charger?

http://www.australiandirect.com.au/b.../BTCTD250SDUAL

I'm looking at running a few deep cycle batteries to power the accessories in my GMC Sierra, and I'd like to have a solar panel or two on the roof, feeding into them to keep them charged up with a DC-DC charger, so we can regulate the output from solar panel/alternator to keep it within the optimal charging voltage and output for the batteries.

[Spinner77]

Forgive some dumb questions, but I am trying to straighten out my thinking.

Take this as a starting point:
http://yourchoice.vic.gov.au/media/f...e-Feb-2013.pdf

The average cost of electricity with no discounts is given as $1,288 for 4,000 kWhours/year. I make that to be $0.32 cents per kWh. Now the feed-in rate everywhere in Victoria, as far as I can establish, is $0.08 per kWh, supposedly based on the wholesale price.

Am I correct to assume that the if you feed in just 1 kwh during the day, and later use just 1 kwh from the electricity company at night, the balance is not zero; but that you are credited with 8 cents, and then debited for 32 cents? (I would assume this to be the case, given "the loser pays" principles adopted by all governments in Australia.)

My other question is related, and is concerned with variation in use. The average of anything rarely tells the whole story. What you need to know to is the spread around the average.

For example, on a wet day in winter, the reverse cycle heaters, stove, dishwasher, washing machine and so on might all be going at once. Suppose, to keep the numbers simple, your average usage is 20 kWh/day. On a cold day, it might be a lot more of course. Does anyone have a fix on that?

I know a rule of thumb for just about anything is that the spread around the average is around 30 per cent of the average in a majority of cases. In other words, if that rule works here, you could expect to use approx 13-27 kW hours on any day most of the time.

Is that what people experience in reality?

(For the maths-minded, I am suggesting that a standard deviation of 30 per cent might account for the usage pattern almost 70 per cent of the time.)

[poppa smurf]

well no......the average is exactly that an average (why it's called average)

if you take into account a 12 month usage cycle then break that down to a daily usage then that will be your average usage over the 12 month period......different year, different usage will result in a different average

the longer the trial period and more information, I.E. 5 years usage will give you a better average

if you start placing deviant fluctuations due to small, short time excesses then you have not related your usage figures correctly and your average is incorrect

if you use 1 kw at a rate of $0.32 then produce 1kw at the tariff rate of $0.08 then your account will be in the red to the tune of $0.24c

dont try to over think the solar power.....you don't get anything for nothing and it will only pay you the going rate for your state

[prydey]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

dont try to over think the solar power....

agree. sometimes we overload our little grey cells and over think a lot of things.

if you work on averages, you should be around the mark.

like poppa mentioned earlier, dig out your last 4 bills or so and look at your average daily usage. ours was around 15-19kwh/day. i then looked for a system that would 'average' around that sort of power and then weighed it up against the budget i had to spend. most places won't guarantee any sort of power output but generally a 3kw system will 'average' around 12-15kwh/day, give or take depending on a wide range of factors (where you live, angle of panels, etc etc)

if the average output of the panels is about the same as your average usage in the home, then it should be around the mark at covering the best part of your bills.

if your FIT is less than what you are buying it for, then its best to get into the habit of doing a lot of your chores during the middle of the day so you can use as much of your own power as you can. running washing machines etc after the sun goes down, or before it comes up isn't a good idea to maximise your solar usage. if your FIT is more than what you buy it back for, then its the opposite. try to use as little of your power during the daylight hours.

you don't have to change your lifestyle, but there are a few things you can do (like the above mentioned) to maximise the benefits of solar power.

anyone with kids, i would recommend a mimimum of a 3kw system if you can afford it.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

DC to DC charger?

http://www.australiandirect.com.au/b.../BTCTD250SDUAL

I'm looking at running a few deep cycle batteries to power the accessories in my GMC Sierra, and I'd like to have a solar panel or two on the roof, feeding into them to keep them charged up with a DC-DC charger, so we can regulate the output from solar panel/alternator to keep it within the optimal charging voltage and output for the batteries.

what you need is a solar regulator.....not sure where you would get one but a solar sales outlet should be able to put you right