Ambitious China

[Trevor 57]

The big difference between Russia and China is that we were far less reliant (if at all on Russia, but we (Australia) are very reliant on China to buy our goods

and yes, you are correct, America is NOT the role model we should all be aspiring to

[T3rminator]

Interesting article in The Age today. Is this a little concession speech from Scomo? Wish he would stop doing it through the media and pick up the bloody phone. Seems like he has realised Trump and Pompeo are gone. Shame we got hooked, lined and sinkered into their election campaign. It has been a diplomacy disaster of monumental proportions. We are about to go into a trillion dollar debt. Pain will be felt by businesses and citizens in the long run, not pollies who get a paycheck for life after retirement. Some interesting comments from subscribers.

Australia will not be deputy sheriff in US-China tensions, Morrison declares
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/f...23-p56gzz.html

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Interesting article in The Age today. Is this a little concession speech from Scomo? Wish he would stop doing it through the media and pick up the bloody phone. Seems like he has realised Trump and Pompeo are gone. Shame we got hooked, lined and sinkered into their election campaign. It has been a diplomacy disaster of monumental proportions. We are about to go into a trillion dollar debt. Pain will be felt by businesses and citizens in the long run, not pollies who get a paycheck for life after retirement. Some interesting comments from subscribers.

Australia will not be deputy sheriff in US-China tensions, Morrison declares
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/f...23-p56gzz.html

Well its a start atleast.

Speaking of austerity, how is it that the lifetime pension for pollies has never been pushed? They should be no different to any other profession.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

60 Minutes had a real good interview with HR McMaster, former US National Security Advisor last night. Straight up he was saying China are nothing but a cancer, and will bully and intimidate smaller countries to get what they want. They will provide funding for infrastructure in those countries, then they basically own them, and use that power to control that countries foreign policy. They are complete tyrants.

Sounds like this guy just described his own establishment. But at least these countries now have a choice of two tyrants.

The IMF and World Bank have dominated international money lending for a long time. Who is the major shareholder? They crippled some of the smaller countries and made them their slaves. "If you don't behave as we tell you, we will downgrade your credit rating". Now an alternative has arrived, these countries are taking it, and the establishments are ****ed. Sri Lanka has always been used as the poster child to criticise China's debt diplomacy, but Sri Lanka looks like they might double down. Why?

Sri Lanka turns to China rather than IMF to avoid default
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Int...-avoid-default

There is a new player in town. They look different and have a different culture and political regime. They don't play by the establishment rules, do business differently, and is a competitor. The establishment don't like it, they see it as a threat to their dominance. Smells like fear.

But hey, it looks like we are getting in on the game too. $1b loan to Indonesia for "covid recovery". But only after years of successive foreign aid cuts? I'd be keen to know where are we getting the money from?

[MITCHAY]

From all reports our Chinese counterparts are not picking up the phone which if true is pretty childish and does nothing to improve relations.

Having said that if they won't answer the phone then get on a plane and knock on the door.

I'm guessing their idea of repairing relations is for us to kiss the ring and basically fold publicly essentially accepting all blame which is BS.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

From all reports our Chinese counterparts are not picking up the phone which if true is pretty childish and does nothing to improve relations.

Having said that if they won't answer the phone then get on a plane and knock on the door.

I'm guessing their idea of repairing relations is for us to kiss the ring and basically fold publicly essentially accepting all blame which is BS.

I may have said it before, but now is the time (while we are down) to start pushing back a bit, if they want to get iron from brazil then go for it...time to up the cost / ton

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Whats with the American obsession?

China is like any other power, they will flex and push to get what they want. They are going to find out how the rest of the world works but its going to take some pain until people push back.

Seems similar to the Russia story, except China currently means more to the world than Russia did...didnt work out so well for them.

America is not shining beacon for how countries should behave.

Does it even need to be explained to you?

The chinese do not follow the rules everyone else does. Their human rights are a joke, the way they keep their citizens under control is a disgrace, and they do not engage in diplomacy beyond "how dare anyone speak out against us". They act like a pack of butthurt little bitches when they get called out on doing the wrong thing, and then bully the countries speaking out.

They launch cyber attacks against other countires, they infiltrate embassies and learning institutions with spies, and bribe officials to steal IP.

The US is far from perfect, but the CCP is truly evil and will stop at nothing to become the worlds no 1 superpower. They don't even try to hide it. The China 2050 plan is basically a blueprint. And any Chinese person who stands in their way will disappear, never to be seen again.

They are the enemy of freedom.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I may have said it before, but now is the time (while we are down) to start pushing back a bit, if they want to get iron from brazil then go for it...time to up the cost / ton

Don't touch Iron Ore! We are actually milking it. Price is at a high and they need to keep buying.

Gold standard NSW, who didn't go into any sort of real lock down, budget deficit $16b......deficit, not debt!

WA budget surplus $1.2b!

You know they are going to start manipulating Iron Ore prices when they are able to, so take advantage NOW

https://stockhead.com.au/resources/h...ore-prices-go/

https://www.afr.com/markets/equity-m...0201123-p56h6d

[FTE217]

So, interesting.......
https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia...26-p56i8y.html

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by FTE217

So, interesting.......
https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia...26-p56i8y.html

It will build, and there is a way you go about these things, throwing words and shouting is not how its done.

China has burnt people with CV..people are to busy trying to manage it right now but once its over it will be interesting to see how relations change...China is going to find themselves on out outer pretty quick.

[LG17]

We need to quickly develop export markets with other countries to absorb what we send to China and pull right out of dealing with them unless it's entirely on our terms and price.


We then need to put decent tariffs on crap that comes from there.

[Bossxr8]

I would love to see us start slapping tariffs on chinese imports. But i also know they love to play tit for tat like school yard bullies, and we would soon see return fire.

The whole world needs to step up and show them this is not how diplomatic countries work.

[FTE217]

Polyal, have you experienced any coporate meetings with Chinese companies ?
Yes there is a way to deal on every subject and at times the type of people, some jump due to being aggro some don't. CCP are a jeckle and hyde.
They wish to come over to the owrld they are being diplomatic but in the background they'd like to run you over full stop.
Now I'm sure politically it all has to be this diplomatic front face wise - then how things are expressed through the media is another thing, its how the MSM express it right ?
How thats interpreted is another question.
Consider the CCP, they run their media AND I'm sure they provide the memo to their Foreign Diplomats what and how to express getting their POV over.....
I am glad somewhere sometime some western pollies say what most are afraid to say be it towards CCP or otherwise. (I'm no Trump luver personality wise BUT I did like he said NO to them or at least passed on resistance))
If theres a price to pay its one that was coming sooner or later anyway, nothing last forever.

Smart companies long before CV were starting to make their shift out of China, maybe not 100% but say 50% for eg.
Pricing has picked up substantially the last 5yrs or so.
I know of companies who have already re located ie Vietnam for eg 2yrs ago.
Companies like mine have started re sourcing from other Factories a portion of our business.....
Its very time comsuming making a full shift bu we shall leave a portion there - I expect many will also.
The ones who will have concerns is those having all their eggs in the one basket, we've warned many we know to be very wary, more price hikes are coming, stay at your own peril for in time your product will not be competitve.
I won't even consider going back there once its safer to travel, (normally 5-8times a year)for you can't trust what memo they'll send to airport customs who to either not allow in or worse not let you out.
I'd sooner our Gov look to grow some new business links, ther eis plenty were not doing business with, a lesson I learnt from a very wise successful self made businessmen, the small fish taste sweetest.
Sure milk what we can get from the CCP but lets be more pro active, we've sat back due to geography and size/demands, spread our wings more.

[Citroënbender]

The favouring of “hostage diplomacy” is one tack I really disapprove of. It’s primitive and cowardly. I don’t blame you for being unwilling to return.

[MITCHAY]

They have put tariffs of up to 212%+ on Aussie wine now.

I can't believe they can hold a straight face with this dumping or quality control BS that they have used as excuses.

About time to put one on the mouth of these ****s. That's how you deal with bullies

[lra]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I would love to see us start slapping tariffs on chinese imports. .

No need for tariffs. I am sure that all Chinese cars could be impounded/quarantined for inspection for 'Tin Ants', (a highly invasive species that were found in 1980s > 90s European cars.)
Leave them in an uncovered car park near the docks, and after a period of, say 12 months, the infestation should be evident.

[Mr_G6ET]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

They have put tariffs of up to 212%+ on Aussie wine now.

I can't believe they can hold a straight face with this dumping or quality control BS that they have used as excuses.

About time to put one on the mouth of these ****s. That's how you deal with bullies

Export it in 2.1L 'containers' and bottle it there ?

'Temporary duties ranging from 107.1 per cent to 212.1 per cent will be implemented on Australian wine imports in 2L containers or less from Saturday'

Bring on a united front from every other country and start 'shoving' back

[Trevor 57]

We need to threaten tariffs our steel and our milk - **** 'em, the ****ing bullies

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

The favouring of “hostage diplomacy” is one tack I really disapprove of. It’s primitive and cowardly. I don’t blame you for being unwilling to return.

The canadians they arrested, as payback for canada arresting that huawei exec on espionage charges, would agree entirely.

[Mr_G6ET]

Fudge, didn't do it well, intended to quote Trevor.

Google is littered with China to Australia export and not the other way around.
The (pug) dog in nibbling my toes to throw the toy so a detailed and extended search is not without pain.

What does China need from us, cut that **** off !

[MITCHAY]

The funny thing is we just signed yet another trade agreement that includes China

We alone probably can't do a lot on Chinese imports but a bloc of countries could put some dent.

There is the nuclear option with iron ore but this is really the only card we have and you need to play it right and there would also be a price to pay for it.

If the government would compensate our exporters I would be OK with this but it relies on them buckling because they can't source enough elsewhere. It is a lot of ****en money for Aussie economy.

I would fully expect that the US knows this too and would leverage it if and when the time comes.

[Mr_G6ET]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

The funny thing is we just signed yet another trade agreement that includes China ...... .

Truth is it will never be 'black and white', hopefully we get to the point is that we need each other.
In all reality it will be like a decade before we can globally replace China supply and demand.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I would love to see us start slapping tariffs on chinese imports. But i also know they love to play tit for tat like school yard bullies, and we would soon see return fire.

The whole world needs to step up and show them this is not how diplomatic countries work.

We already do. I think we have tariffs on 20 odd of their products, including steel and copper. There was an article with a list but I can't find it anymore.

Barley and wine are the first two they have slapped on us. Its a bait. They want us to take them to the WTO so that they can put the 20+ products we have tariffed on the table for debate. They are claiming the same, no evidence of subsidies.

The thing is they are cunning and always play the long game. We need a 5 to 10 to 15 year game plan, but I can't see it.

[MITCHAY]

Yes that is the one advantage a dictatorship has. No election cycle to worry about and what's worse they use our media to spread influence here while censoring their own.

One of their grievances is unfriendly media coverage. Someone should tell them we have a free press..

I can't believe the amount of Aussies that think we are actually the bad guys here. What a hit job the CCP have done

[Mr_G6ET]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

........................ We need a 5 to 10 to 15 year game plan, but I can't see it.

True, well said. I earlier said we should look forward to an alliance of 'everyone else' . Sure as **** stinks, they need something from someone.

How long does it take to get united, especially hard with the circus in the U.S

'Aussies the bad people ', I think it looks vindictive, U.K polie's agree

[T3rminator]

Just to put some things into perspective........

China used anti-dumping rules against us because what goes around comes around
https://theconversation.com/china-us...-around-138541

"It remains a prolific user of the system compared to other countries, with an outsized number of measures imposed against imports from one country, China, and imports of one product, steel."

Did Australia start the anti-dumping trade contest with China?
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/di...st-with-china/

"Australia has been the world’s third most prolific user of anti-dumping measures over the past six years, having initiated 84 actions, with only India and the United States doing more, according to the World Trade Organization. The vastly larger European Union economy, by contrast, initiated 67 actions over that period while Japan initiated just six."

Anti dumping measures - 26 vs 2.

[Bossxr8]

China are the worlds worst dumpers. With the ccp giving money to companies to sell products under cost to destroy competitors.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by LG17

We need to quickly develop export markets with other countries to absorb what we send to China and pull right out of dealing with them unless it's entirely on our terms and price.


We then need to put decent tariffs on crap that comes from there.

Totally agree but unfortunately our governments (Labour & Liberal) are weak and too reliant on China for our economy hence the reason why Scomo at present trying to sit on the fence line trying to appease China & USA.

There would be a lot of pain to our economy which would hurt us if we have a trade war with China and China knows this with their bullying tactics.
Previous governments from the 70's sold out Australia.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by LG17

We need to quickly develop export markets with other countries to absorb what we send to China and pull right out of dealing with them unless it's entirely on our terms and price.

We then need to put decent tariffs on crap that comes from there.

Due to their size and buying power that is near impossible to do. I see the global economy and trade agreements akin to the balance you find in nature.

Upset it a little and there is some scope to adjust and adapt, upset it by a very large margin and things go to shambles.

While we scramble to react and possibly try and put more tariffs or restrict stock going to China they would have already predicted this response from us and have made arrangements to obtain everything we provide them from other suppliers.

Nothing we give them is unique to our shores (happy to be corrected on this) - someone, somewhere can provide the same products of a similar or slightly lower quality for the same or lower price.

And if they don't have the facility up to scratch China will buy them out or fund them with a loan and get it running in 3 months.

If they don't have the local personnel to work there China will ship over their own workers.

There is a reason they are buying up large farms, ports, mines etc and strategically funding struggling governments around the world that can't pay back their debts and instead hand over land rights and access agreements.

As I said in another thread - as much as I don't like them (and I don't for several personal reasons) they have arranged the perfect storm for what they are doing.

They can dictate the terms to our sellers. They have the deep pockets to buy whatever they want and influence whom ever they want. They have the workforce that is happy to work long hours, never complain and for next to nothing because they are used to being told what to do and not have a voice to object.

I dated a Chinese girl for a while. She would look at large building or infrastructure projects that took months or years to get going and say 'In China that would have been done in 3 weeks' (for projects that would take several months) or 'In china that would have been done in 4 months' (for projects that would have taken us years)

We plan for today and tomorrow, China plan for the next 10 or 15 years.

As much as I want to see them taken to task for what they are doing to the planet and the global economy it is probably not going to happen without a war.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

I dated a Chinese girl for a while. She would look at large building or infrastructure projects that took months or years to get going and say 'In China that would have been done in 3 weeks' (for projects that would take several months) or 'In china that would have been done in 4 months' (for projects that would have taken us years)
.

Thats why their buildings like falling over, due to their cost cutting measures.