New Submarines

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

From another (non-car) source:

One of my class mates was working down at BAE in Williamstown as emergency response team, and the stuff he was saying was amazing about how that joint even runs.

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

One of my class mates was working down at BAE in Williamstown as emergency response team, and the stuff he was saying was amazing about how that joint even runs.

Maybe now, but during the ANZAC Class build the place ran pretty well, the guys building the ships were a bloody good team, had great knowledge, skill and exceptional pride in the product they turned out.
The ships themselves speak volumes for Williamstown's efforts.

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by SB076

As I have said before anything with Defence is state of the art new technology. We have to push boundaries and with that comes issues.

I would hate to think that we have learnt some valuable lessons through all this only to throw it all away and let an industry fall. I would much prefer acknowledgement of the issues, learn form the mistakes and make sure the next project goes ahead a lot smoother.

I hope ASC gets to build the new subs, as it will be interesting to see how it goes after learning so much through building the Collins class

Government projects have very short memories, lessons learnt are generally not learnt at all. This normally comes about due to the turn over of governments, turn over of government employees or even the uniform staff (when talking Defence). We have build many capital ships (and aircraft etc) in this country and we continue to make the same high level blunders, poor project implementation, trying to build an unproven first of type vessel (aircraft) and finding we are far too small to produce or sustain an orphan build.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Cashie

Maybe now, but during the ANZAC Class build the place ran pretty well, the guys building the ships were a bloody good team, had great knowledge, skill and exceptional pride in the product they turned out.
The ships themselves speak volumes for Williamstown's efforts.

and this is where we are at, the place is just starting to hum a long nicely

shared a fairly significant install today with an amazing bunch of guys

was good stuff

[PridenJoy]

BAE systems didn't build the ANZACs, Tenix did. Tenix was taken over by BAE systems 6 or 7 years ago (?) for whatever reason and the place (Williamstown) was never the same since.

Tenix were renowned as the number one ship building and refit contractors in the country and the ANZACs speak for themsleves.

Shortly after BAE systems took over i applied for a position with the company and what a schmozzle that was. After going to many interviews and being told I have the job position was eventually pulled as there was no funding for it. That's how that organisation is run.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

and this is where we are at, the place is just starting to hum a long nicely

shared a fairly significant install today with an amazing bunch of guys

was good stuff

How is ship 01 coming along, there's an abject lack of pics and updates on the web on the progress of the ship. It would do the project's PR a hell of a lot of good if the AWD alliance/builder took some happy snaps and put them on faceache every week, there are people out there that are interested in it aside from the haters.

I've looked and found little. Maybe make a suggestion to the bosses? Gotta fight your own PR war

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

How is ship 01 coming along, there's an abject lack of pics and updates on the web on the progress of the ship. It would do the project's PR a hell of a lot of good if the AWD alliance/builder took some happy snaps and put them on faceache every week, there are people out there that are interested in it aside from the haters.

I've looked and found little. Maybe make a suggestion to the bosses? Gotta fight your own PR war

pics would be nice, but its defense and just a little bit secret squirrels

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

pics would be nice, but its defense and just a little bit secret squirrels

One of AFF's members is a Defence Force photographer, might have to have a chat to him PB.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

One of AFF's members is a Defence Force photographer, might have to have a chat to him PB.

I'm a secret squirrels, nopics and keep it light and fluffy in here

[cheap]

3 years behind schedule and $600 million over budget, the ships would want to be in a very very advanced stage of construction and near commissioning.

So exactly what stage of construction are all the ships at?

When do we see the slash for all of our cash?

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by cheap

3 years behind schedule and $600 million over budget, the ships would want to be in a very very advanced stage of construction and near commissioning.

So exactly what stage of construction are all the ships at?

When do we see the slash for all of our cash?

Read the above reports, the revised build schedule is detailed in there.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by cheap

3 years behind schedule and $600 million over budget, the ships would want to be in a very very advanced stage of construction and near commissioning.

So exactly what stage of construction are all the ships at?

When do we see the slash for all of our cash?

what's your background cheap

could probably hook you up with a start

roll em sleeves up and give us a hand

[cheap]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

what's your background cheap

could probably hook you up with a start

roll em sleeves up and give us a hand

I'm a janitor and salvage expert i.e. I clean up other people mess and salvage failed projects. Give me sufficient authority and indemnity and your project would get fixed too.

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by cheap

I'm a janitor and salvage expert i.e. I clean up other people mess and salvage failed projects. Give me sufficient authority and indemnity and your project would get fixed too.

I'm sure it would.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by cheap

I'm a janitor and salvage expert i.e. I clean up other people mess and salvage failed projects. Give me sufficient authority and indemnity and your project would get fixed too.

no need for bs

lets be honest

mon - fri

what do you do

srs

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

no need for bs

lets be honest

mon - fri

what do you do

srs

I reckon he is Andrew Bolt.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I reckon he is Andrew Bolt.

ffs

[cheap]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

no need for bs

lets be honest

mon - fri

what do you do

srs

I told you what I do, there is no BS.

My team delivers complex projects, however we never makes the headlines because we don't screw up and few people want to admit their project wasn't going to deliver. We come in and fix all sorts of projects. Some reasons for our engagement, the incumbent team was full of idiots, the scope wasn't managed/wrong, the issues weren't managed, the customer didn't know what they wanted, misunderstood contract, because the budget was screwed/wrong... believe me I have heard many many excuses.

Like I said, I'm a janitor and salvage expert.

[pottery beige]

site visit

i can hook you up

[Cashie]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

site visit

i can hook you up

I don't think he'd be janitoring many AUD8 Billion complex government projects.
I'd love to see any outside team be able to easily get a project such as this one back on track or janitor it back on track.

Originally Posted by cheap

I told you what I do, there is no BS.

My team delivers complex projects, however we never makes the headlines because we don't screw up and few people want to admit their project wasn't going to deliver. We come in and fix all sorts of projects. Some reasons for our engagement, the incumbent team was full of idiots, the scope wasn't managed/wrong, the issues weren't managed, the customer didn't know what they wanted, misunderstood contract, because the budget was screwed/wrong... believe me I have heard many many excuses.

Like I said, I'm a janitor and salvage expert.

However I totally believe the above, I've seen many projects that were off the rails due to one or several of your examples above.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Cashie

I don't think he'd be janitoring many AUD8 Billion complex government projects.
I'd love to see any outside team be able to easily get a project such as this one back on track or janitor it back on track.



However I totally believe the above, I've seen many projects that were off the rails due to one or several of your examples above.

Someone needs to, it looks and reads like yet another complete and total Charlie Foxtrot.

[pottery beige]

???

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1227159628226

[Road_Warrior]

Ta-ta Minister!LOL

[cheap]

Hopeless situation, the new defence minister has the stamina, charisma and wisdon of a boiled lettuce leaf. Andrews is and has always been useless, with him at the helm I'd be surprised if the ships get launched before 2025.

[Road_Warrior]

I've been following this little conversation elsewhere and some more insight into the BAE/Navantia debacle from some ex employees.

The reason Navantia has been contracted to send additional personnel to Australia is because the recently sacked defence minister was incompetent and in the pocket of multinationals who were determined to sideline ASC and secure a bigger chunk of the contract for themselves. While I have no issue with any of the Navantia people I worked with I was very disappointed with them at the corporate level specifically relating to the quality and timeliness of design changes and not telling us about issues encountered on F-105, leaving us to find them for ourselves, further mucking up the schedule.

That said Navantias part in the mess is nothing compared to that of Rod Equid (Raytheon employee and head of the Alliance) and BAE Australia the mangler of blocks, to quote my old boss, handing management of the build over to BAE, Raytheon and Navantia is like putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

On risk management, the Australian government was very poor at it from the late 90s onward, just look at FFGUP, ANZAC WIP, ACPB, LCM2000, Super Sea Sprite, MRH90, ARH, MU90, Wedgetail, Vigilaire, and M-113 upgrade off the top of my head. Can't blame the workers or unions for any of those and they were all different contractors too (although some of the contractors are not blameless), the common factor was Cabinet and more to the point dept of PM&C, can't even blame the DMO as they were set up after many of the troubled projects had started so they were not a common factor either. The real shame is Australia's predominantly privately owned defence industry, i.e. before ASC was nationalised, had been doing quite well for quite a while before this, delivering world class products and securing exports at ever improving schedule and cost.

The Australian National Audit Office report gives a pretty good analysis of both the problems faced during build and the problems involved with the way the project was incorporated and managed. ASC has as much to answer for as the other alliance members.

But the way it is being spun is ASC cant be trusted to "build a canoe" while Raytheon, BAE and Navantia are the knights in shining armour who (after being paid hundreds of millions tax payers money) will ride in and save the day.

I know some in ASC are not blameless, I was there, I saw incompetent "experts" hired in for their knowledge, I saw some senior managers ignoring problems. I and others bashed our heads against the wall telling senior managers of issues that were never addressed. I saw three absolutely pointless, government instigated, reorganisations, including some very stupid redundancies, in as many years that only ever seemed to affect ASC and saw increased Raytheon dominance in the project. The fact that the full story of BAEs incompetence wasn't made public stuns me, as does them now being brought in to "fix" things now. Following BAEs take over of Tenixs ship building operations they lost, through redundancy and natural attrition with many of the best moving into resources infrastructure

The reviews into the project have been very unbalanced, pretty much targeted at ASC with a specific agenda involved. ASC has been targeted with Raytheon and government influence in what happened ignored or down played. Under Rudd / Gillard the CEO of ASC was forced out for daring to stand up to the government on budget and contract negotiations. The submarine maintenance budget was cut and hundreds of technical redundancies were forced. Then a new CEO was brought in from the UK a stack of experienced and competent managers were forced out and replacements brought in from the UK, handing many pivotal positions and functions over to Raytheon. A change of government, the new CEO is gone and another management team is being brought in. I am surprised any work has been done at all.

At the end of the day if new ships had been ordered from Tenix in a timely manner in the late 90s / early 2000s, perhaps instead of the FFG UP, the new ships would be in service having been built within budget and schedule. We had an experienced and capable yard that had just successfully delivered two major projects that was starved of work until it's owners sold out to a multinational with a track record of cost and schedule blowouts on pretty much every project they touched.

[cheap]

How to build something slightly bigger...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBPxjZ4gqaQ

[Road_Warrior]

Great vid cheap

Here is the source link to the material posted earlier. From a forum relative to the subject:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/na...ates-5905-964/

[SSD-85]

Because spending endless amounts on killing machines that are less efficient & economic than WMDs for the sake of "morality" makes so much sense....

I don't think there is anything more confusing than scrupulous warfare.

Seriously.

[marty351]

I still dont get why we build new? submarines with tractor engines.
Nuke tech has been around since the 50's and we still insist on conventional crap.
WHY?

[cheap]

Originally Posted by marty351

I still dont get why we build new? submarines with tractor engines.
Nuke tech has been around since the 50's and we still insist on conventional crap.
WHY?

Politics.

Mind you the same anti-nuke politicians would insist our next submarines be green and incorporate solar, wind and tidal powered propulsion, insisting the navy pay some form of CO2 tax because of their non compliance.