Ford announce extension to Geelong plant beyond 2010

[madmelon]

My response to that apalling article in carsguide/Sunday Telegraph

"This article, its author and the editor who allowed it are each a disgrace to journalism. How can anyone criticize a local manufacturer of ANY product for maintaining 400 jobs when once they were thought to be lost? How about the 900 jobs at suppliers which will be maintained?

"But let’s not have ourselves on."- Ignoring the improper grammar (starting a sentence with BUT), this describes exactly the situation occurring. "Building an engine whose origins lay in the 1960s" - this statement proves the poor education of the author. By this reasoning, we should stop using CARS, which have their origin in the 1890's. It is beyond comprehension how someone can criticize an Australian product which does its job with more power, lower fuel consumption and better refinement than engines significantly smaller. The origins of the engine are irrelevant- it is constantly praised by every journalist who experiences it.

Doom articles like this destroyed Mitsubishi Australia. Instead of rampant one eyed product bashing, the media should take the time to experience what a fantastic product it is we are producing in this country and write something positive for once."

It remains to be seen how much the moderators let through, if any. THey probably can't handle the criticizm.

[4Vman]

Alloy blocks present stability issues too... Generally speaking a "V" configuration will be more stable in alloy than a "straight" configuration.
From memory i think Euro 4 specs will be easier to meet with an alloy block though?

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Alloy blocks present stability issues too... Generally speaking a "V" configuration will be more stable in alloy than a "straight" configuration.
From memory i think Euro 4 specs will be easier to meet with an alloy block though?

Aluminium and iron blocks will suffer the same way in regards to torsional and lateral bending strength in a straight configuration. While in general terms a V is going to be more rigid, it is not difficult to increase the rigidity of an inline block by adding webbing. Either way, it is not a significant problem- otherwise there wouldn't be aluminium inline 6 engines.

As for emissions, yes aluminium (or magnesium in BMW's case) does significantly improve the emissions performance of an engine. It's all about the warm-up time. An aluminium block, having better thermal conduction and a lower "thermal mass" will always warm up faster than iron. The improved thermal conductivity means less surface area is required for similar cooling performance. This more or less translates into less cooling water volume required, which has the added benefit of lower mass also.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by madmelon

Aluminium and iron blocks will suffer the same way in regards to torsional and lateral bending strength in a straight configuration. While in general terms a V is going to be more rigid, it is not difficult to increase the rigidity of an inline block by adding webbing. Either way, it is not a significant problem- otherwise there wouldn't be aluminium inline 6 engines.

As for emissions, yes aluminium (or magnesium in BMW's case) does significantly improve the emissions performance of an engine. It's all about the warm-up time. An aluminium block, having better thermal conduction and a lower "thermal mass" will always warm up faster than iron. The improved thermal conductivity means less surface area is required for similar cooling performance. This more or less translates into less cooling water volume required, which has the added benefit of lower mass also.

With having better thermal conduction, wouldn't being all copper be ideal, or does Aluminium have a better thermal conductivity than copper? But then we'd have to worry about strength right?

(Just a wild idea, because in the computer world, Copper makes better Heatsinks)

[Dezza]

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

Hmm just checked the latest news on carsguide.com.au...Two article headlines stood out for me:

Ford decides to keep Geelong engine plant open
Ford's 40-year-old six-cylinder engine has been taken off the scrap heap.


New Commodore’s engine keeps more dollars in tank
Australia’s favourite car - the Holden Commodore - will be cheaper to run from next month.

Call me crazy, but is carsguide.com.au a Holden shill? Because after reading the story above I'm starting to believe it.

Seems that way. After Mitsubishi closed their local operations, they just decided to move their focus to Ford, and seem to be trying their best to kill it too. Also how may I ask is the Commodore Australia's favourite car? Isn't the Corolla outselling it? Australia's favourite car doesn't mean it has to be built in Australia. It is the car that most Australians prefer.

And while they regard the current inline 6 is a 40 year old engine, it is far from it. The 4.0 litre story really started with the EA's 3.9litre. It had some minor updates on the EBII to become the 4.0litre. It had some more updates on the EF then the AU, before it had major updates on the BA. The fact that it became twin cam means it is a vastly different engine to the one before it. I remember when the BA came out, the journos were saying how great the Falcon 6 cylinder engine is. They couldn't praise it enough, but by about a year later that praise is gone and they're now calling it words like "aging" and "old". They'd seemed to forget how good it is, until the BF bought out the 190kW version. Again they start praising it, only for them to forget and calling it an old dog. The same thing's happening again.

It's a smoother, more powerful engine than the Commodore V6, but it does this with better fuel economy, and has a sweet note to it as well. It seems the press, just like the general public believes that a straight 6 is old technology and that it should all be replaced with the V6. Maybe they're forgetting that some of the best 6-cylinder engines in the world are straight 6. The previous BMW M3, and the Nissan Skyline GTR are two good examples. V6 has one advantage. You can fit it in a shorter engine bay... that's it. Long live the i6. It's a damn good engine, and I hope it still has a long life.


btw. Great job madmelon.

[Mr Hardware]

How about reducing the capacity by 15% to 3.4L. The new capacity could be because of a shorter stroke enabling a higher rev limit for power. The DI would still allow an easy 200kW & 380Nm. Yet offer consumption in the 8.5 to 9L / 100km region.

You're joking, aren't you? Shortening stroke from 99mm to 85mm would not only reduce torque output to only a smidgeon over 300nm, but ruin the whole low end torque characteristic that is unique to the I6. Both incorrect and silly.

[madmelon]

My God, they published it word for word- and I got a response out of poo poo Pottinger. Go read.

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by madmelon

My God, they published it word for word- and I got a response out of poo poo Pottinger. Go read.

Got a link?

[madmelon]

My reply to his reply:

"I think you'll find that people didn't want the 380 because outlandish journalism like your own put fear into prospective buyers- fear that it would be an orphan in no time, fear that parts and servicing would more or less dry up. Here's a fact: The 380 and Magna before it were excellent cars, often of a higher standard than anything coming out of Holden, Toyota or Ford. They remain a highly recommended second hand car. Mitsubishi doing well as an importer simply means it maintains far fewer jobs here and moves jobs (and expertise) OFFSHORE.

As for the Falcon 6- why is it necessary for you to describe it as “Ancient”? This is blatant smearing of an excellent engine which shares nothing more than a handful of dimensions with the original engine, or indeed the significant update in the EA, EF and AU.

FACT: I drive 600km per week and I drive with economy in mind. I get poorer fuel economy from my 4 cylinder Camry than I do from a family members BF Mk III wagon, which has the 4 speed automatic.

Another FACT: Holden and its parent company are in a far more dire situation than Ford, yet it receives no negative press, especially not from yourself. Where’s the consistency? "

I can't win this battle without support- GET YOURSELVES ON THERE AND COMMENT IN A SENSIBLE AND PROFESSIONAL WAY!!

[madmelon]

Here's the link people

http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/be...ney_after_bad/

[EgoFG]

Deleted

[DoreSlamR]

Good work madmellon

You speak the truth but you're a pilgrim in an unholy land there, when Paul Potty has had enough he'll just delete what he doesn't like.

[King Nothing]

My bit

Paul, please explain your definition of the word "ancient" when describing the Falcon I6? The engine itself has had a number of redesigns, most recently with the BA only 6 years ago. To my understanding, it is only the cylinder bore spacing and the deck height that are the only major similarities to previous incarnations of the I6. The use of double overhead cams, alloy heads, individual coil on plug ignition are a few things off of the top of my head that certainly weren't around 40 years ago.

By your logic, even the latest LS engines in the commodores are ancient, as they share similar engine dimensions (bore spacing of 4.4" for one) to the old small block chev engines designed in 1955. Surely a professional motoring journalist would recognise and acknowledge this? A bit of consistency (perhaps even a bit better technical knowledge and understanding) would go a long way in establishing the credibility of this article and your responses.

[imugli]

BOO YAH!

You go boys! Where's he hiding now?

[DoreSlamR]

Originally Posted by imugli

BOO YAH!

You go boys! Where's he hiding now?

He's making his get away in his slightly less powerful but more economical commodore

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

My bit

Paul, please explain your definition of the word "ancient" when describing the Falcon I6? The engine itself has had a number of redesigns, most recently with the BA only 6 years ago. To my understanding, it is only the cylinder bore spacing and the deck height that are the only major similarities to previous incarnations of the I6. The use of double overhead cams, alloy heads, individual coil on plug ignition are a few things off of the top of my head that certainly weren't around 40 years ago.

By your logic, even the latest LS engines in the commodores are ancient, as they share similar engine dimensions (bore spacing of 4.4" for one) to the old small block chev engines designed in 1955. Surely a professional motoring journalist would recognise and acknowledge this? A bit of consistency (perhaps even a bit better technical knowledge and understanding) would go a long way in establishing the credibility of this article and your responses.

Brilliant mate

The more responses that are as technically sound and professional as this, the better.

Here are some other points people may which to bring up- consumer sentiment and what is essentially the media's control of it.

Latest testing revealing that the Falcon is one of the very few (or possibly the only) car on the road which actually BEATS its fuel efficienct claim

The sad fact that PP and the media in general would rather drive this industry into the ground than support it

The fact that no hoo-haa has been made about Focus production here and possibly Fiesta body stamping here.

[madmelon]

And another from me- now they're attacking me personally

"I love the Falcon. I have absolutely no shame in that and admit it freely. I also love the other products coming out of this fine country.

The VE Commodore- for the most part a good car. While a little behind the Falcon now at base level, the top of the range is still at the cutting edge and I imagine will be for a long time.

The Camry/Aurion- whilst not the performance cars of the GMH/FoA bunch, they have proved to be dependable transport for many years. The upper models easily compete with GMH and FoA on a luxury basis. I DRIVE A CAMRY- shock horror...

I find it interesting and saddening that there has been no positive beat up of ford producing the Focus (and associated models) here from 2010. Surely that counts as listening to the consumer. Unfortunately, it remains a sad fact that rather than using all their (very substantial) influence to get behind an outstanding Australian product, the media (and this writer in particular) would rather chase them out waving a big stick. I'm not just talking about Ford either.

The only flag I claim to hide behind is the Australian Flag. A great many of you should be ashamed of yourselves for taking every opportunity to tread it into the dirt."

That'll be my last post there- I don't really have anything else.

[Silver Ghia]

Good comments by madmelon and King Nothing, so true. And we must not forget to emphasise that the fuel economy of the FG approaches that of the Corolla.

And why is the Toyota Hilux the highest selling vehicle these days? Surely not for the fuel economy, also I hear the doors fall off the hinges on those!!

Unfortunately there are all types of people who respond to these articles and subsequent comments, even those who dont know anything at all about the subject they are commenting on.

Mitsubishi, now Ford, next will be Toyota or Holden, the vultures never stop until theres nothing left.

[Falc'man]

Can someone explain to me why this numb-nut says this in the first paragraph?

"with the promise of making it meet Euro IV emissions requirements which become obsolete next year all to go in a car that nobody’s buying."

I also posted, noting the above, but he hasn't approved the post yet. Did I read that right? Is he saying Euro4 is obsolete NEXT YEAR??? Is he THAT stupid? Surely, no car journo can be so ignorant of what's happening.

[Silver Ghia]

They work on making headlines, for those common readers who dont know anything better to believe. Whether its true, stretching the truth, or not true at all, it doesn't matter. Regardless of what may happen from their ridiculous articles.

[King Nothing]

My next attack..

Hi Paul

I see that you have not responded to my question. How do you define an "ancient" engine, and how its updates do not allow you to see it as a modern engine?

As our "protectionist mentality", are you aware of the uneven playing field with regards to auto exports in this region? I direct you to M Danby's article Non-Tariff barriers undermine Thai-Aus FTA on October 30 2008. Thailand previously had up to 80% tariffs on imported vehicles. With the new FTA with Aus, large passenger vehicle dropped to 0%, and small cars dropped to 30%, eventually reaching 0%. Aus will be dropping its tariffs from 10% to 5% in 2010.

However the Thai government implemented a number of non-tariff barriers. Thai exports to Australia rose from $139m to $1.1b. Aus exports to Thailand rose from $17m to $22m. Hardly a level playing field, and indicative of a more protectionist stance than ours.

This article, along with other articles on this website (specifically the one stating that the engine is being “lifted off the scrap heap”), and your comments here are indicative of a poor quality of journalism where facts are not checked and unsubstantiated opinion rules.

[boris]

"Ford is by no means wishing doom on its fellow Detroiters. It shares most of the same big parts suppliers, so a disruption in the supply chain that a bankruptcy would invariably cause would hurt Ford too, and even halt production temporarily."
Is this a possible reason why the i6 is being continued? If the other two go bankrupt and this affects suppliers of parts for the v6, it would effect many of fords product, by keeping the i6 six ford can still produce falcon with no disruption of supply from the US. Thus capitalise on the others missfortune.
As for the doomsdayers, it appears ford globally has the best chance out of the 'big three' of making it without going bankrupt!

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

That is how much they know.Who makes straight six for Falcon?

Some little Indian kid in the back room of a Geelong Convienice store.

Bloody hard worker that little fella

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by fordman6

I think the [anchor] V6 is some Ford products could be dropped & replaced with the new & improved Barra I6 (think Taurus, Fusion, Milan [Mercury], MKZ/MKS [Lincoln] etc.). Though maybe keep the new EcoBoost engines... V8-wise - I think the new 6.2l still under development would be a worthy replacement for the [well loved by enthusiasts, but] underrated BOSS...

I don't think so, don't think it would fit without a new platform thats not gonna happen.

[Jason[98.EL]]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

Some little Indian kid in the back room of a Geelong Convenience store.

Bloody hard worker that little fella

lol that would be on the corner of seppo and thomo rds

[Steve]

I think perhaps these comments might also need to be sent to someone higher up at carsguide and maybe even Marin Burela.

[Gobes32]

I am finding it more and more disheartening to read the negative comments about Ford Oz & Holden on the internet. We as a nation are starting to lose our pride in local manufacturing. The same morons who go and get aussie tattoos and whatnot then jump on the net and tell everyone how crap everything made in Australia is. WTF? It would be interesting to find out what they do for a living so you could explain to them how an economy works and if the entire Australian auto industry collapses then that is a lot of people that can no longer afford to support your industry, whatever it may be.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Steve

I think perhaps these comments might also need to be sent to someone higher up at carsguide and maybe even Marin Burela.

Interestingly enough, carsguide seem to like Mr Burela and have reported quite positively on his arrival. I am hoping that he can soon have the media on his side and have them start to report the facts and not just the opinionated garbage we are forced to read now.

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by Steve

I think perhaps these comments might also need to be sent to someone higher up at carsguide and maybe even Marin Burela.

I heartily agree. He hasn't allowed my final message to be added to the discussion.

[Daymoe]

By media, do you mean propaganda machine? By Paul Pottinger, do you mean Joseph Goebbels and carsguide the Holden Party propaganda unit?

Seig heil Peter!