All things Solar (merged threads)

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Bearman

A good mate had installed solar. Unsure of the details but he has lots of panels.

The payback for the power returned to the grid is not what he was quoted from his energy company and they managed to slap a few "admin charges" on him to further diminish his return. It'll take twice as long to pay itself off.

Basically he was ripped off.

Solar?? Wouldn't bother.

when all is said and done we must make the decision to install, or not, based on a solid foundation of figures and not heresay.

to go in to an agreement of this magnitude (often tens of thousands of dollars) without solid knowledge is very stupid indeed.

if there is one thing I have banged on about from the start is do your homework.

without knowing all facts and not having his exact costings, usage, and any possible FIT it is impossible for me to comment further other than if he was quoted unreasonable or unattainable output figures and he based his purchase on these figures he may have actionable pathways open to him through different organisations.

in MOST cases solar is far from a waste of money........but as in all things, homework first.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by LG17

Interestingly enough I used solarquotes.com and have had 3 responses - one an email directing me to their useless website which doesn't appear to work, two a phone call asking what I wanted and where (I'm sure I stated that in the initial contact) and then saying to contact them when I take possession of the house and three, an email followed by a phone call and further emails asking/informing me about NMI and an IES form for Ergon - things that I had no idea about. They are finding out some info and I expect a proper quote this week. I hope it's good as a bit of old fashioned service goes a long way.

I absolutely hate it when a company doesn't honour their website commitments or simply refuse to answer any enquiries or uses the system to push a useless Barrow.

but I guess if nothing comes of these initial enquiries then all we can do is to use another pathway.

I hope your quote comes somewhere near your expectations, any doubts or reservations you may have can be aired here if you like, someone (hopefully) can help you out a bit.

[ebxr8240]

I work in elect industry and also own a stand alone motorhome ..
Check what [solar] works in motorhomes and multiply to your needs..

[ThornyBob]

G'gay,

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

when all is said and done we must make the decision to install, or not, based on a solid foundation of figures and not heresay.

to go in to an agreement of this magnitude (often tens of thousands of dollars) without solid knowledge is very stupid indeed.

if there is one thing I have banged on about from the start is do your homework.

without knowing all facts and not having his exact costings, usage, and any possible FIT it is impossible for me to comment further other than if he was quoted unreasonable or unattainable output figures and he based his purchase on these figures he may have actionable pathways open to him through different organisations.

in MOST cases solar is far from a waste of money........but as in all things, homework first.

so you've never been ripped off ? even mildly ? A rather glib statement....

The solar industry is blessed with far more than it's proper share of mealy-mouthed salespeople and poorly trained company spokespersons.

Of course it's buyer beware, like everything else, however there are that many rules and back-doors for the mongrels to wriggle through that the ordinary person has little choice but to accept what is offered to them on face value.

Solar is an industry that is well on the way to being one which is treated with total mistrust, like one or two age-old others that we are all aware of, to join the new ones that were created with privatisation of public utilities.

cheers,
Bob

[poppa smurf]

as I have said ad nauseam.... if we are prepared to go into a purchase of this size without getting all the relevant information to enable us to make a factual based purchase then we deserve to get ripped off.

my statement is not glib, I am simply reinforcing that which I've been banging on about for years.......do your research,
if you are aware of the "back doors", and in reality there are very few that can be legally spruked, then we can avoid them or report them

it really isn't that hard.......I don't understand the confusion and the readiness of some people to make silly statements based on conjecture.

do your research on

solar panel reliability
output reliability
inverter reliability
installer accountability
installer professionalism
your usage
your needs
FIT availability IN YOUR REGION
payback time

all the information is readily available

hopefully if a few people look at our input and try to not to let the keyboard warrior within take over we may actually help a few folks through the minefield that is solar.

but in the end the decision is yours and yours alone.

[ThornyBob]

G'day,

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

as I have said ad nauseam.... if we are prepared to go into a purchase of this size without getting all the relevant information to enable us to make a factual based purchase then we deserve to get ripped off.

my statement is not glib, I am simply reinforcing that which I've been banging on about for years.......do your research,
if you are aware of the "back doors", and in reality there are very few that can be legally spruked, then we can avoid them or report them

it really isn't that hard.......I don't understand the confusion and the readiness of some people to make silly statements based on conjecture.

do your research on

solar panel reliability
output reliability
inverter reliability
installer accountability
installer professionalism
your usage
your needs
FIT availability IN YOUR REGION
payback time

all the information is readily available

hopefully if a few people look at our input and try to not to let the keyboard warrior within take over we may actually help a few folks through the minefield that is solar.

but in the end the decision is yours and yours alone.

yep, sure must be tough dealing with turkeys.....

cheers,
Bob

[poppa smurf]

Bob if you have first hand FACTUAL information of crooked sales/installers that can be backed up strongly then I would love to hear about it.

a list of "shonky" retailers or installers could help greatly those that are about to make a large investment.

thankfully most of the folks left in the solar industry are of a pretty high standard now with riff raff getting shown the door.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Bearman

Solar?? Wouldn't bother.

I am looking at a 2.5 year payback on a $2,100 investment.

Point me to a place where I can get better !

And I have the details to prove it (at 5 minute increments)

This is on a 6c NET feed in tariff, and since I work from hom I turn on the pool pump, dishwasher, a/C etc to take advantage of when the electricity is produced.

.... Surely it is not that much worse in Vic ?!?

[ThornyBob]

G'day,

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

Bob if you have first hand FACTUAL information of crooked sales/installers that can be backed up strongly then I would love to hear about it.

a list of "shonky" retailers or installers could help greatly those that are about to make a large investment.

thankfully most of the folks left in the solar industry are of a pretty high standard now with riff raff getting shown the door.

why would you shout FACTUAL, I have no need or cause to embellish anything...

There is a crowd at the local shopping centre, still there, "Green Engineering". As they are still trading, despite all the comments on line, I can only deduce that whatever they are doing is all legit.

So, being seduced by all the usual booth advertising, last days, looming deadline, and all that stuff we decided to enquire. Armed with a recent account we requested what was required to cover the bill - object of the exercise, effectively nullify the account.

On December 15 we agreed to the recommended outfit, 4kW setup at $6700, said to be discounted from $7700, Chinese Munsterland panels & SMA inverter. It was "last days" alright, the new year ticked over and the same outfit was then on offer for $6200.

It was all installed in great haste over the 29th & 30th December, switched on, and power was being generated and seen to be recorded on our "smart meter". Ripper, fair sort of investment but would result in greatly reduced power bills, will be some left over to put off the gas bill in the good weather according to the salesman.

Job finished and we find that the installing guys are supposed to pick up the balance of the agreed price, on the day, they have no card facilities and like we always have six grand lying about the place. They are just as embarrassed about the problem as we are, wait 'till they send a bill we are advised. We had to chase an "account" from GE and eventually pay them by daily instalments as a bank transfers, no cards there either, a damn shambles.

So, then it's on to our supplier, where we find that the compliance date is a moveable feast. No, not the date of install/operation but the date that Powercor deem appropriate to wander out and look at the install, this happened on the 28th March last, three months after the installation. Resulting in an FIT of 8cents and no hope of "covering the bill".

To cap this lot off we also got a bill from Origin for $281.16, in August mind you, to cover the Powercor bloke that lifted the lid on the meter box for 30 seconds months earlier.....

I find it difficult to believe that Green Energy would not be aware of the chain of events.

Yes, we were ripped off through our own ignorance.

cheers,
Bob

[DJL351]

Originally Posted by ThornyBob

G'day,

why would you shout FACTUAL, I have no need or cause to embellish anything...

There is a crowd at the local shopping centre, still there, "Green Engineering". As they are still trading, despite all the comments on line, I can only deduce that whatever they are doing is all legit.

So, being seduced by all the usual booth advertising, last days, looming deadline, and all that stuff we decided to enquire. Armed with a recent account we requested what was required to cover the bill - object of the exercise, effectively nullify the account.

On December 15 we agreed to the recommended outfit, 4kW setup at $6700, said to be discounted from $7700, Chinese Munsterland panels & SMA inverter. It was "last days" alright, the new year ticked over and the same outfit was then on offer for $6200.

It was all installed in great haste over the 29th & 30th December, switched on, and power was being generated and seen to be recorded on our "smart meter". Ripper, fair sort of investment but would result in greatly reduced power bills, will be some left over to put off the gas bill in the good weather according to the salesman.

Job finished and we find that the installing guys are supposed to pick up the balance of the agreed price, on the day, they have no card facilities and like we always have six grand lying about the place. They are just as embarrassed about the problem as we are, wait 'till they send a bill we are advised. We had to chase an "account" from GE and eventually pay them by daily instalments as a bank transfers, no cards there either, a damn shambles.

So, then it's on to our supplier, where we find that the compliance date is a moveable feast. No, not the date of install/operation but the date that Powercor deem appropriate to wander out and look at the install, this happened on the 28th March last, three months after the installation. Resulting in an FIT of 8cents and no hope of "covering the bill".

To cap this lot off we also got a bill from Origin for $281.16, in August mind you, to cover the Powercor bloke that lifted the lid on the meter box for 30 seconds months earlier.....

I find it difficult to believe that Green Energy would not be aware of the chain of events.

Yes, we were ripped off through our own ignorance.

cheers,
Bob

It must be massively different from state to state because I had no such dramas in 2011 and mine was done in the last weeks before they killed of the FIT.

The company you used reminds me of The Modern Group and/or True Value who are always very pushy with their 'style' and don't explain the end to end process. (I had a friend get screwed over with some roller blinds because they did not mention that the electrical works needed to be done by a third party and they were 2 weeks delayed)

They appear to have left you high and dry on a few of those 'extra' steps/pieces of the puzzle, which while annoying and unfortunate, is not uncommon in MANY industries these days. :(

Same for the power company. In WA we only have one anyway so we all get shafted the same... - They were 'required' to visit and check the install within 14 days of completion and we were able to contact them prior to the solar install to make a 'booking'.

I spent 6 months reading Whirpool.net's solar section and contacting upwards of 15 solar companies for info and details on their processes before I finally pulled the trigger.
It allowed me to see the difference in many aspects of the industry as well as the process which resulted in a very smooth and quick install.


On a side note - since Nov 2011 I've had one power bill (middle of Winter 2012) and my average usage was 23 units a day.
For those with inverters that can output data, pvoutput.org is a great way to track your progress and well as compare with others that are local.

My system is here --> http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?id=1701&sid=3619

[poppa smurf]

I shout factual because all statements are liable to be seen by persons whom may or may not take offence and instigate legal action.

the card debacle is an obvious mistake and should have been corrected quickly, we did ours through direct debit that night after signing the bottom line........

the F.I.T. should have been applied for and granted at the time of install and commencement of generation, not the time of inspection.

mine was applied for and granted a good two months before install took place.

this i would be following up as a matter of recourse.

[comagutsa]

i here you ThornyBob

im in WA and only get 8.8c for every unit we sell back to synergy
my 3kw system cost me $6400 a year and a half ago 200w panels (same system now is only $5000 with 250w panels)
last bill i exported 200-250 units more (approx 700 units i get $60 for it bloody joke imo) than i used and still had a bill of $100 (no heater or aircon last billing period)
i worked it out roughly i save $150 total for the 2 month billing period
6 bills a year =$ 900 a year saving
$900 x7 years =$6300 just to pay for the cost of my system before it will start to work for me ...7 years it a long time and solar technology will become cheaper and better in that 7 years

why did i bother ..because i thought id do the right thing and try and be a bit greener etc but it just bites you on the bum and you get ripped off

the power company is making a killing off us solar people .all this power brought at 8.8c and then they sell it an make approx 16c per unit and they reckon they still need to increase the price of power for everyone
cant wait till battery technology improves and becomes cheaper

but on another note my 3kw is going great atm all ready producing 19 unit days even had 1 day where it did 19.96... so close to 20

[Bearman]

The example I raised the guy did his due diligence and the energy company moved the goalposts. He's not the sort of bloke to go into an impulse decision on things like this.

He'll wait it out for the benefits to start to kick in but he has said that in hindsight he wouldn't have had it done.

[davenl5l]

feel sorry for people that have been burnt money is hard to come by and it gives solar a bad name I did my research and for me it all worked out . something needs to be done about the f.i.t. difference from state to state power companies are making massive profits selling green power . our expensive solar panels are reducing blackouts at peak times but the average punter thinks they are subsidising our solar . time for one to one I think with a reduced supply charge as most of us are exporting more than we are importing !!!!!

[poppa smurf]

yep! I've said it many times, it should be a minimum of $1 - $1 all over the country.

that's "green energy" $ and not "coal" $......the way it stands is totally unfair.

Bearman, we are all at the mercy of energy companies and Governments shifting and realigning the "contract"......not much we can do about that until a "contract" is once again a binding agreement between two parties as it is meant to be.

[David222]

Hoping to draw on some of the collective Ford forum knowledge and experience with solar our situation is that we have huge Power Bills around $1200 a quarter, and are about to make the leap to Solar PV and Solar Hot Water but things have gotten complicated with two suppliers telling us 2 different things.

We have two quotes from suppliers who install in our local area. (Regional NSW) Both Suppliers originally quoted 5KW PV systems, and Solar Hot water split systems (1 Evacuated Tube and 1 Copper Core panels) to replace our broken Heat pump storage hot water, that is running electric boost only mode.

After further questioning, 1 of the suppliers came back and said that they can’t fit 5KW PV to our Existing Single Phase supply, and can only go bigger than 4KW on 3 phase connected houses due to “New Ausgrid requirements”,(Changing Goal posts anyone?). The other supplier is adamant they can still fit the 5KW system, they just have to provide more details and calcs to get the system approved which they claim their quote covers.

Which one is telling me the correct story?

Also due to a lack of Northern facing roof space once the solar PV goes up, the Solar hot water would have to be mounted on the Eastern side of the house roof which has a 20.5 degree pitch, has anyone had experience with a copper core or evacuated tube 400 litre hot water being satisfactory on the eastern side without needing excessive use of the electric booster? Would we be better plumbing the panels all the way up to the Western End, when the storage tank is at the Eastern End?

Happy to listen to anyone’s experiences or ideas.

[DJL351]

Originally Posted by comagutsa

i here you ThornyBob

im in WA and only get 8.8c for every unit we sell back to synergy
my 3kw system cost me $6400 a year and a half ago 200w panels (same system now is only $5000 with 250w panels)
last bill i exported 200-250 units more (approx 700 units i get $60 for it bloody joke imo) than i used and still had a bill of $100 (no heater or aircon last billing period)
i worked it out roughly i save $150 total for the 2 month billing period
6 bills a year =$ 900 a year saving
$900 x7 years =$6300 just to pay for the cost of my system before it will start to work for me ...7 years it a long time and solar technology will become cheaper and better in that 7 years

why did i bother ..because i thought id do the right thing and try and be a bit greener etc but it just bites you on the bum and you get ripped off

the power company is making a killing off us solar people .all this power brought at 8.8c and then they sell it an make approx 16c per unit and they reckon they still need to increase the price of power for everyone
cant wait till battery technology improves and becomes cheaper

but on another note my 3kw is going great atm all ready producing 19 unit days even had 1 day where it did 19.96... so close to 20

Don't look at the purchase prices once you're in - it only serves to hurt you.
I paid close to 20K for mine in 2011 (3.04Kw system) so I speak from experience.

Yes the 8.8c is a massive kick in the cods but it will not change in our lifetime. :(

For you, as you have no FIT to feed back the best you can do is use what you can during the daylight hours.
Washing machines, dyers (sort of pointless in Perth during Summer I know) dish washers. Ac units..... use them in the peak of the day rather than feeding the grid for 8.8c per unit and then paying 23.8 at night when you fire up the dish washer - let it run in the day time and technically save your self 16c.

[comagutsa]

Originally Posted by DJL351

Don't look at the purchase prices once you're in - it only serves to hurt you.
I paid close to 20K for mine in 2011 (3.04Kw system) so I speak from experience.

Yes the 8.8c is a massive kick in the cods but it will not change in our lifetime. :(

For you, as you have no FIT to feed back the best you can do is use what you can during the daylight hours.
Washing machines, dyers (sort of pointless in Perth during Summer I know) dish washers. Ac units..... use them in the peak of the day rather than feeding the grid for 8.8c per unit and then paying 23.8 at night when you fire up the dish washer - let it run in the day time and technically save your self 16c.

yeah we do all that ..we try and use as much power durning the day and have changed our habbits to match... only ever do washing and dishwasher durning the day etc but my mrs works durning the day so can only do so much, but when i fly back in for my 5 days off i make sure do as much as i can while the sun is out

[rancidpunx]

Have a peek at this "Sun Tax" petition guys. http://www.solarcitizens.org.au/suntax

[poppa smurf]

we solar owners already have that in place, have had since we signed up.

we pay more for our power than non solar users.......despite shutting down blackouts and easing generating costs, we are flogged by all and sundry.

then we get accused of raising the cost to all other consumers, I'm really glad more and more statements like this from reputable sources are coming out........my next hope is that some folks will listen to them.

I quote from the website above.

quote......."The simple fact is that the AEMC is wrong. The main driver behind power bill price rises is investment in network poles and wires – not solar homes. But when it comes to the big power companies' war on solar, it looks like the facts don’t matter."......end quote

power company profits must be upheld regardless of who is hurting, guvco seems to like guaranteeing profits for overseas companies despite the pain of everyday australians.

[LG17]

Battery banks are starting to get significantly cheaper...

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by LG17

Battery banks are starting to get significantly cheaper...

just waiting for these

(http://www.megagraphite.com/products...ication/solarr )

to become mass manufactured then it's goodbye grid.

on another note.....good to see production is up, made 21 kilowatts yesterday, used just under 10.

[Blue Ice]

Got a quote earlier this week for an install of a 4.5kw system, $10,524 prior to signing over the STC's, final install price is $7,680.

That's using 18 x 250w Ulica panels and an SMA 5kw inverter and all the associated wiring and components required. Probably could have squeezed 2 extra panels in but 4.5kw is plenty for what I use.

I already have a smart meter installed so hopefully I wont be having to shell out for an upgraded one.

[poppa smurf]

listening to leon byner (an Adelaide talkback radio host) this morning.......he had a couple of expert folks on who were stating that if home storage of power, I.E. solar/battery bank/feed to grid, were to be used then the F.I.T. would be nullified.

apparently they are concerned about profit spiralling downwards and eventually losing the appeal of a "golden goose".

even if we go off grid we will still be billed for the network, even though we would not be using it, well that sounds fair?????

I have not got any "hard" evidence of this as yet but I will be looking into it further.

[LG17]

In a discussion with one of many solar joints I've spoken to, I was told a ballpark figure of $23000 to set me up with a 5kw system off the grid.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by LG17

In a discussion with one of many solar joints I've spoken to, I was told a ballpark figure of $23000 to set me up with a 5kw system off the grid.

roughly correct if you are using supplied "off the shelf" gear......did you write down what he was supplying or all just a verbal.

[LG17]

I didn't write it down but it was all on display (and labelled) at Infinity Solar in Toowoomba. They wrote the figure on a brochure.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by LG17

I didn't write it down but it was all on display (and labelled) at Infinity Solar in Toowoomba. They wrote the figure on a brochure.

Yep roughly the same as Aussie batteries and solar quoted me.

Wrong quote, sorry.

[stevejg33]

Was going to post this photo a couple of weeks ago, hopefully it downloads.
Had my system up for just over 2 years & have just clocked up 20,000 kw hours produced (6kw system)

[XD 351 Ute]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

even if we go off grid we will still be billed for the network, even though we would not be using it, well that sounds fair?????

I have not got any "hard" evidence of this as yet but I will be looking into it further.

Well I for one will seriously look at going off-grid if they keep up with trying to tax the solar user.
If they still try to bill us then we should all group together and fight them in court.

Ed