All things Solar (merged threads)

[comagutsa]

Originally Posted by DJR MAN

I'm new to understanding solar and its benefits. Have seen large differences in advertised prices and system outputs.
Tru-Value are advertising a 4.2kw expandable system for $1896, 1.5kw worth of panels only.
Is there more to this price, and could I buy 2 of these specials and use the second set of panels to upgrade the system and put the second inverter in storage?

http://www.truevaluesolar.com.au/?gc...FQMgpAodOH50pw

Any input would be appreciated

i would steer clear of true solar
havent heard good things about them and when they say special this month of $---- buy now because next month its going to double they are full of crap
its cheap stuff

[deesun]

My quarterly was 700-800+. My wife was/is the worst offender, just waiting for her to lea......... hahahahahaha

[deesun]

Originally Posted by z80

7kw of panels and a 5kw inverter?

Hmmmm...doesn't sound right mate.

A 5kw of panels will hardly ever produce 5kw of power and only for a short time of day. But you can have 7w of panels on a 5kw inverter and it will produce more power more often but still never over 5kw of your inverter and if so just go to waste. Mine is 6kw on a 5kw inverter. BUY AS BIG AS YOU CAN AFFORD. Especially now while prices are comming down and DON'T get suckered in to one of those introductory systems which will hardly produce enough to power a 60w light globe.

I found this website and this Fin bloke gave some great tips http://www.solarquotes.com.au/index_a.html

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by deesun

My quarterly was 700-800+. My wife was/is the worst offender, just waiting for her to lea......... hahahahahaha

folks marvel at me and praise me for being a terrific bloke who takes his wife all over Australia.......little do they know I'm just trying to find a place where she cant bloody well find her way back home again......only joking darling!!! (in case she reads this)...


I know a feller who has 3.5 kwh on a 3 kwh inverter.....it hums during peak production and does get hot but it doesn't seem to do any harm!

[deesun]

[QUOTE=poppa smurf]folks marvel at me and praise me for being a terrific bloke who takes his wife all over Australia.......little do they know I'm just trying to find a place where she cant bloody well find her way back home again......only joking darling!!! (in case she reads this).../QUOTE]

[Stagg]

There is an unseen problem with installing a larger inverter initially.

All inverters require a minimum operating voltage (MOV) before the inverter actually turns on and begins exporting power. Basically, the system can be creating a very very small amount of power at the first crack of dawn, but the inverter will act like a resistor until the voltage rises enough for the power to export.

When you install a larger inverter, for example a 4.2kW inverter with 1.5kW of panels, the inverter will turn on at a later time during the day, then if it was a 1.5kW inverter with a 1.5kW inverter.

The larger inverter you have, then the larger MOV required for exporting power.

Comparing apples with apples:

1.5kW inverter & 1.5kW panels, will make more power than 4.2kW inverter and 1.5kW panels.

[comagutsa]

thanks for that stagg as im looking at 3 kw system but they tell me i only need a 1.5kw to cover my day usage cost... thought about 1.5 panels with a 3kw inverter but thought stuff it just get the 3kw after reading your post
just hope WAs buy back changes in the future to a 1to1 and not a 7c per unit buy back ..we so get ripped off

[Pis-ton broke]

I think Ipart is a government agent, and that they are doing a tarriff price per/kw price determination I think for NSW government, that should be out in April 2012? ( take your time boys, other states have already sorted this out) as the government has no current feed in tarriff a the moment is my understanding. AGL in VIC is paying 33c/kwh ,NSW= 0 ,what a joke.
http://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/n...ion-8-10c-kwh/

I had a 2.2 system put in . A Harvey Norman job. I got the grant and .20c tarriff. The inverter broke, but H.N. came and put in a new one , and that one broke to, it was fixed with a software upgrade. Its been going good for a while now. It makes 10 to 11.2 kw on a good day, the panels are at 3degrees, I need to change the angle of them.

Intergal was a PITA to deal with and I changed to AGL @.26c/kw with no contract. I havn,t done a full cyclle with them, so i,ll wait and see.
I got a phone call from intergal "retain customer office" I told them that there phone operaters where of little use , and she was smyathetic, sorry but your to late lady. Besides ,they only pay .07c/kw. It pepends what state your in for the solar tarriff. i,m in NSW.

[Franco Cozzo]

Any of you guys manage to source your panels direct from China? Did it work out much cheaper?

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Any of you guys manage to source your panels direct from China? Did it work out much cheaper?

I have heard stories of people doing it themselves, although they have spent hours getting all the right gear for the system to be complete, then find an installer, and then claim the rebates; and some have had a nightmare sourcing from China themselves.

Much the same as any appliance you buy for your home (air conditioners, TV's etc), the system must be accredited for installation in Australia, and to find the list of accredited panel modules, it is found on the CEC (Clean Energy Council) website, but be prepared to go through about 600 pages of brands and models

If you source yourselves, you will need:

- Panels
- Inverter
- Double insulated wire (PV modules product a lot of EMF and single insulated wire can cause fires)
- Mounting brackets, either for tin or tiled roof
- Circuit breakers
- Safety stickers
- Any shipping cost if you source it yourself

As for the installation, you must find a CEC accredited installer, again, this list can be found on the CEC website.

I would recommend using a company in Australia, because most retailers buy panels in the container load because the price works out much cheaper. Buying 10 or 20 panels would be more expensive than their 400 panel buy price panel for panel.

However if it's what you want to do, there is a lot of time involved, but I would imagine it would be a lot more satisfying sourcing it all yourself

[last fairlane]

Hi all
Ive just read all the questions and answers tonight
and didnt find the one I was looking for
so here goes
can you get the solar panels installed on
a Queensland housing home and still the rebate?
or any rental property I guess
weve been here 20 years and now retired
does anyone know the answer to this
the sales people at the local shopping centre
couldnt help they just wanted me to sign up
thanks John

[z80]

Originally Posted by deesun

A 5kw of panels will hardly ever produce 5kw of power and only for a short time of day. But you can have 7w of panels on a 5kw inverter and it will produce more power more often but still never over 5kw of your inverter and if so just go to waste. Mine is 6kw on a 5kw inverter.

Sorry mate, can't let that comment slip through unchallenged.

Yes it works, but if you watch your output carefully during the day you will see your inverter shut down and restart many times, and you lose around 15 minutes of power generation every time it resynchs etc etc etc.

Also...the "cloud edge" effect will push your inverter peaks and shut down restart intermittently instead of continuous charging.

So your scenario less than ideal.

[z80]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

I have heard stories of people doing it themselves, although they have spent hours getting all the right gear for the system to be complete, then find an installer, and then claim the rebates; and some have had a nightmare sourcing from China themselves.

It's not as hard as all that.

Just buy from a wholesaler in aus...no need to import yourself.

It comes down to paying $360 wholesale Versus $700 retail per panel.
Multiply that 20 times for a 5kw system and you soon get the idea.

Pretty good profit margin if you're doing a few installs a week...

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

If you source yourselves, you will need:

- Panels
- Inverter
- Double insulated wire (PV modules product a lot of EMF and single insulated wire can cause fires)
- Mounting brackets, either for tin or tiled roof
- Circuit breakers
- Safety stickers
- Any shipping cost if you source it yourself

Jaycar and Middy's can sell you most of that over the counter.

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

As for the installation, you must find a CEC accredited installer, again, this list can be found on the CEC website.

Nope...only if you want the solar rebate....else a normal sparky who can inspect and give you a certificate of safety form is fine.

In fact only the inverter wiring to the switchboard is required.

My inspector said he doesn't care about the DC wiring.

[z80]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

There is an unseen problem with installing a larger inverter initially.

All inverters require a minimum operating voltage (MOV) before the inverter actually turns on and begins exporting power. Basically, the system can be creating a very very small amount of power at the first crack of dawn, but the inverter will act like a resistor until the voltage rises enough for the power to export.

When you install a larger inverter, for example a 4.2kW inverter with 1.5kW of panels, the inverter will turn on at a later time during the day, then if it was a 1.5kW inverter with a 1.5kW inverter.

The larger inverter you have, then the larger MOV required for exporting power.

Comparing apples with apples:

1.5kW inverter & 1.5kW panels, will make more power than 4.2kW inverter and 1.5kW panels.

Sorry mate, with the new transformerless output stages in the inverters it doesn't matter anymore.

They start up with a poof-teenth of a ray of sun.

As long as the string of panels is over 200v most inverters with a decent MPPT controller will happily produce power till the cows come home.

I would recommend a look at the SMA5000TL (transformerless is the TL bit).

[Pis-ton broke]

Sounds like good info, can someone show us a component lay out plan. Cause some of us might have a go at a home installation. Or direct us to a site this that has DIY information and system plans.

Can someone help me. I am wondering If I can add a panel or two to my system. Do the panels need to be the same brand etc.

cheers Mick

[poppa smurf]

gotta agree with z80....mine are producing and exporting at sunrise (I know because it's my start of day) takes very little to get them fired up

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

gotta agree with z80....mine are producing and exporting at sunrise (I know because it's my start of day) takes very little to get them fired up

I need to keep up with the times ahaha

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by Stagg1991

I need to keep up with the times ahaha

Hah! join the club.....I'm on one hell of a learning curve just keeping up with all the "new stuff"....some days I just want to go back to bed!

just as a query here from the freckle faced kid down the back (me).....I had a lot of strife with the shiny bum side of the purchase of my solar, which I wont go into here as it is a long and boring story

when it was time to have E.T.S.A. install the "smart meter" I had to have my P.V. SEG numbers before they would proceed

I had to get onto EM solar (my array supplier) for the numbers which they would not give out until the formwork was passed in from my sparky after he had finished the upgrade to my distribution box, which couldn't be done until E.T.S.A. had installed the smart meter and upgraded the infeed cable which they wouldn't do without the formwork (massive catch 22) GRRrrrr!

given the query earlier about the feller who wants to install his own array and still claim his feed in tariff my concern is his ability to do this without the paperwork from the sparky and the relevant paperwork from the supplier, including PV SEG No and upgrade advice from the relevant electrickery supplier...what about the "smart meter" with feed in and feed out

then there is the issue of connection to the grid???

[poppa smurf]

just on passing I would like to thank all the contributors to this thread

the knowledge freely shared, and with little malice, is to be applauded and is of enormous value to those of us with little to no understanding of those magical, mystical spark producing sheets of glass that sit upon our roof!

well done......very much appreciated!

[NC_Steve]

It has probably been covered already but if the panels were installed on my garage could the generated power travel through existing wiring that runs to the house/meter box? The supply cable from the house to garage is underground so if a second one was required I would imagine it would get quite expensive?

[z80]

Originally Posted by NC_Steve

It has probably been covered already but if the panels were installed on my garage could the generated power travel through existing wiring that runs to the house/meter box? The supply cable from the house to garage is underground so if a second one was required I would imagine it would get quite expensive?

Inverter can connect to any powerpoint in any circuit.

a 2kw inverter can connect to a std 10A/240v outlet.

3kw and more need 15A or greater wiring.

You need to ensure 2 OHMS or less wiring resistance to the meter box, thats about the only thing to worry about.

I managed to get a 120 metre run by using two 8mm conductors buried in conduit.

[Stagg]

Hi all,

Had a customer send through a picture of an installation that I had designed with him, and to date it was one of the most complicated installations ever, he paid just shy of $10k for his system before his rebates including installation, was a huge job!!

What his job consisted of was:

- 300 litre close coupled solar hot water system, with an indirect glycol loop for protection against frost.
- Heat exchanged mounted below the tank and plumbed into the glycol heat exchanger inside the tank
- Copper coil mounted around the flue of his existing woodfire, also plumbed into the heat exchanger
- Frame to catch the winter sun
- All the goodies to go with the system i.e. tempering valves, header tank (so that the woodfire doesn't blow up), 1 inch gas pipe, all pipes lagged, colorbond capping on the wall to hide the pipes etc:









Now before anyone says to me "The water will boil or explode because its plumbed with his woodfire", the principle is that the glycol circuit for the solar tank is plumbed into the heat exchanger as well as the fire, although the two circuits never mix; you see the heat exchanger is a pipe within a pipe.

What happens is in the colder months, the coldest glycol will flow to the lowest point, in this case, in the heat exchanger. A separate circuit between the woodfire and the heat exchanger has water heater by the woodfire, the hottest water rising to the top of the circuit, i.e. the heat exchanger also.

The glycol is then heated by the woodfire water, the hottest glycol then rises to the highest point, which is the heat exchanger inside the tank.

It's a bit hard explaining here, but his tank is still mains pressure, and the woodfire will not explode, because the shepherds crook is plumbed into the header tank that is also feeding the woodfire circuit.

It's a combination that works for a lot of people, mainly rural people with a lot of firewood. Combining a solar hot water with a woodfire can often be seen as an Oxymoron, although the carbon produced by burning wood is less than 15% of the carbon absorbed by the wood during its lifetime. For an entirely carbon neutral system, just have to remember to plant trees

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by NC_Steve

It has probably been covered already but if the panels were installed on my garage could the generated power travel through existing wiring that runs to the house/meter box? The supply cable from the house to garage is underground so if a second one was required I would imagine it would get quite expensive?

when it was determined that the panels would not physically fit on my house roof we decided on the shed

my experience (south australian regional) was that my shed distribution board had to be upgraded to a 6 circuit breaker setup, 4 for the shed and 2 for the solar, this was on top of the upgrades to my meter box and distribution board of $3,500

there are also 2 isolation switches in the distribution as well one for inverter and one for the main power to the shed

my distribution box in the shed was physically not big enough so the sparky upgraded that at the time of solar instalation, cost was around $250

my shed power line had to be upgraded to heavier spec as well, new regulations

even though the old line had been there for close to 30 years without a problem with daily welding and heavy construction, I know this because I put it there myself

but modern laws and all that.....never mind, all safe and up to spec now

[poppa smurf]

good god stagg.....what does that weigh.....is it on a carport roof, I say this because it looks like high rib roofing to me.....I hope he has a decent purlin or two under there

gas boosted as well....nice setup.....how much was his rebate?

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

good god stagg.....what does that weigh.....is it on a carport roof, I say this because it looks like high rib roofing to me.....I hope he has a decent purlin or two under there

gas boosted as well....nice setup.....how much was his rebate?

The whole system weighed about 460kg when full, although it's a huge misconception that the close coupled systems are too heavy on the roof, never been a job where we had to strengthen the roof; Proof was, when the job was finished, there was three of us standing (all weighing around 80kg), and the roof was still sturdy The trick is to distribute the weight of the ysstem, by using Tophat, which is the steel bracket across the bottom of the tank.

It was above an old extension to the customers house, was directly above his kitchen, although it was also an older house and was directly above a supporting wall.

When he first contacted us he was replacing an electric hot water, and when he said he wanted a woodfire option I recommended that he go electric boost as well as the woodfire; because there aren't enough systems installed with a woodfire it is not seen as a dedicated booster for solar; so legally it still has to have an electric or gas booster. I recommended the electric boost because if we replaced his electric with a gas boost solar, there is the extra cost of the booster, plus the cost of running gas to the site; and the pressure needed for a solar gas boosted is at least 199mj per hour, so that was $50 per linear meter EXTRA install cost, and the pipe has to be run from the gas meter to the booster. Comparing an electric boost with a gas boost, he paid about $3000 extra.

When the combination of solar and woodfire in Victoria gives you about 95% of your hot water, I told him that he would not make his money back, although we can still do the job if you wanted.

Sure enough, he was happy to pay a fully installed price for $9700 for a 300 litre solar, flue water jacket, 24lpm continuous flow gas booster, running gas to the site, installing a flat roof frame, and integrating all of the gear together.

His rebates were as follows:

20 STC's valued at $30 each for the install = $620
24 VEECs (Victorian Energy Efficiency Certificates) going form electric to gas boost = $720 (Only in Victoria)
Federal electric rebate (only applicable when the insulation rebate has not been claimed) = $1000

Was one huge job as well, my ego skyrocketed when he gave me a bottle of wine for designing the system, and when I found out he was a civil engineer and I didn't slip up!!

[poppa smurf]

ah! okay if it is on a house extension then his purlins would/should be at .600 centres in which case it should be right when spread over a few of them

a feller was painting the side of his house not far from here a little while ago, he was standing on his carport roof against the wall with only the backchannel supporting the iron

the backchannel gave way and he fell 4 mtrs to the concrete......not good when one is 64, busted hip, cracked jaw, fractured collar bone and many various cuts and contusions, looked like he'd gone 5 rounds with Mohammed ali!

I heard the commotion and went and helped him until the ambo's got there......not much I could do but stem the bleeding a bit

always good to get acknowledgement for a job well done!

[macman]

Might be a stupid question but how does one isolate a solar power unit to say replace a light switch or light fitting?

Normally, you'd flick the power off and remove the fuse but I'm under the impression once the solar panels are in the sun, they're producing power and therefor still powered (even with the main power to the house OFF)?

Just curious. Maybe I should Google the whole thing for a bit more understanding...

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by macman

Might be a stupid question but how does one isolate a solar power unit to say replace a light switch or light fitting?

Normally, you'd flick the power off and remove the fuse but I'm under the impression once the solar panels are in the sun, they're producing power and therefor still powered (even with the main power to the house OFF)?

Just curious. Maybe I should Google the whole thing for a bit more understanding...

they have isolation switches on them, quite separate from your mains power so you can throw the switch and work on the system!

[NC_Steve]

Does anyone here have an old analogue meter with solar instead of a smart meter? Would the old meters spin backwards if your making more power than you are using?

[z80]

Originally Posted by NC_Steve

Does anyone here have an old analogue meter with solar instead of a smart meter? Would the old meters spin backwards if your making more power than you are using?

I have done it and yes the meter does spin backwards.