FG FPV GT Rspec vs VF HSV GTS by MOTOR Mag

[Rodge]

HSV could also be handing out hotted up press cars again?

FPV could be handing out press car's with special tunes too...like they have before, I know, I've driven one of them and no way was it stock.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Originally Posted by OZQUAD44

I wanted to see more Wheels comparisons of the r spec, to hsv,s and the like way back in 2012, not 2014. The fact wheels dragged out the r spec for this comparison is testament to how well it punched above its weight back then , and still does today.

About the only good thing to come out of the demise of our local car industry is i won't be required to endure anti falcon/FoA subtext in certain forms of local media. The Falcon is soon dead so there should be no point putting the boot in any further. Mission accomplished.

Having no Australian made rear wheel drive cars, be it ford or Holden, is a sad day for this country. Regardless of the inefficiencies of said industry.

Too true, couldn't have a Ford that was consistently better than a HIV/Holden product in too many magazines. Might spoil the pipe dream.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Its a different way of looking at it.....but im not the only one disgusted at the way holden and GM handle there business.
Ford can be proud we have LOCALLY developed supersedans built here off our own backs.....not the misfortune of millions of americans.
And THAT takes the shine off the GTS for me.
I wont bat an eye if HOLDEN disappears.[/QUOTE]

True, go on the internet and put in GM bailout payback and have a good read. Just shows the GM mindset and how they do business, just like spoilt kids. Ford fans can hold their heads up high and should be proud of how Ford has turned itself around through hard work and making tough decisions not by shafting everyday people and trying to hold countries to ransom.

Alan Mulally and the global Ford management team deserve a huge pat on the back for saving a motoring icon and the results prove their business plan works.

[Angeldust]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

id also argue they may have won a political battle(with the GTS) but have lost the war politically and the war on the streets along time ago. And that's before any of the above mentioned even happens. ALL these cars only ever see each other on the streets. That means the streets are full of holden and hsv munching fords and fpvs. Theres the odd vf gts that will never hit the street hard...or the track.......

.

not sure what battle/war your on about... every morning i drive to work 35km in brisbane, i would be lucky if i saw 1 FPV/XR8 a day. I usually see seversal HSV's/SS's daily.

[tezxr8man]

Originally Posted by deesun

BUT its 3.2 secs a lap faster and thats a lot.

not really when you compare the suspension, the falcon has good suspension but more of a mainstream everyday setup where the GTS has the ability to change to a track mode which changes a lot when cornering and braking are involved.
I would have liked FPV to go a lil more track orientated with the R-Spec but then they(Tickford Included) have been going too soft with the setup since the EBGT so we should be used to it
Why can't they just make a car that is Ballistic When it has an R-spec Badge on it ???

[tezxr8man]

[QUOTE=XBGTFGGTP;Alan Mulally and the global Ford management team deserve a huge pat on the back for saving a motoring icon and the results prove their business plan works.[/QUOTE]

It would have been good to revamp and save our Australian icon and make it relevant again tho

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Angeldust

not sure what battle/war your on about... every morning i drive to work 35km in brisbane, i would be lucky if i saw 1 FPV/XR8 a day. I usually see seversal HSV's/SS's daily.

I was referring to the performance of the cars. Since the turbos were released years ago....and now the sc GT, the fords have not only been far easier and cheaper to make faster......but they're quicker then the equivalent Holden products in every category. It's even been touched on in this thread again with regards to when Holden got busted for tweaking journo cars. It's not a myth that it's near impossible to replicate Holden times in their products by the owners. The fords however......much different story.
So when you think about the big picture.......how many holdens do you think win little squirt races from sets of lights or on the highway. A very small percentage. Those that do are probably modded....or are the new GTS.
Me personally have yet to be out muscled by ANY commadores since I've had my g6et. And that includes 2 new vf SS.
So to me that's a pretty sweet win to FORD.
The vl turbo guys are even using the ford 6t engine now. That says a lot

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by tezxr8man

not really when you compare the suspension, the falcon has good suspension but more of a mainstream everyday setup where the GTS has the ability to change to a track mode which changes a lot when cornering and braking are involved.
I would have liked FPV to go a lil more track orientated with the R-Spec but then they(Tickford Included) have been going too soft with the setup since the EBGT so we should be used to it
Why can't they just make a car that is Ballistic When it has an R-spec Badge on it ???

I've alwAys thought the way fords have generally been softer set ups as a good thing over the years. Makes for a better day to day ride as 99% will only cruise around anyway. If you want to track it then you have to put better suspension most of the time anyway. Except maybe if your paying 100k for a GTS

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

I've alwAys thought the way fords have generally been softer set ups as a good thing over the years. Makes for a better day to day ride as 99% will only cruise around anyway. If you want to track it then you have to put better suspension most of the time anyway. Except maybe if your paying 100k for a GTS

Adjustable / adaptive suspension is a great thing and you have to experience it to appreciate just how it can transform a car. SRT8 now has 3 modes, comfort, sport and track and HSV GTS has 4, touring, sport, performance and track modes. Interestingly the torque vectoring is only operational in performance and track modes.

If Ford were more invested in FPV they would have fitted some sort of adaptive or adjustable suspension which is something I believe the majority of FPV enthusiasts would have liked to have seen them do.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Originally Posted by tezxr8man

It would have been good to revamp and save our Australian icon and make it relevant again tho

Unfortunately it's a dead horse, not enough volume. Personally I think some kind of Ford/Lincoln RWD sedan will become available in the future as they have the new Mustang platform to build off. I would be happy with some hi-Po Lincoln RWD sedan if it ever happened.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Adjustable / adaptive suspension is a great thing and you have to experience it to appreciate just how it can transform a car. SRT8 now has 3 modes, comfort, sport and track and HSV GTS has 4, touring, sport, performance and track modes. Interestingly the torque vectoring is only operational in performance and track modes.

If Ford were more invested in FPV they would have fitted some sort of adaptive or adjustable suspension which is something I believe the majority of FPV enthusiasts would have liked to have seen them do.

Even that is getting old school now Rodge. The latest systems adjust themselves in milliseconds in response to pitch-yaw acceleration and braking forces etc. and actually firm up their own damping as the hit is taken and then change the damping for the rebound etc. at the same time, effectively changing rebound and compression multiple times a second in real time response to road irregularities and driving style. This tech is also on latest BMW R 1200 GS.

[Sioso]

As a performance car the GTS is way better than the GT Rspec.
But as a muscle car I think the GT is closer to the real meaning.
It's motor over powers the chassis and this is what gives it character.
The muscle cars of the 60's and 70's weren't known for their handling prowess or lap times, they were everyday cars stuffed with big horsepower engines.
As far as a modern day muscle car, the GT delivers in spades.
I like the fact that it can't control the power as well as more expensive or refined vehicles, that is what makes trying to tame one that much more fun.
Hopefully in years to come people will look back on these cars in the same way we now look at Pontiac GTO's, Dodge Chargers, Mustangs, Plymouth Cuda's etc......

[FGX-351]

Originally Posted by Rodge

FPV could be handing out press car's with special tunes too...like they have before, I know, I've driven one of them and no way was it stock.

With the amount of power the FPV's really make they've never really had to.
Owners on these forums get much quicker times than those magazine journos ever seem to get.

On the otherhand HSV are well known culprits of warmed over press cars.
(Remember that GTO back in 06?)

.......all though I could very well be wrong, considering no one could repeat their claimed 0-100 times for the VE2 GTS..

[XBROO]

Fast Forward 5 years and that computer controlled suspension starts playing up, at least the ford will be the same.

[mcnews]

In five years it will have gone ahead another generation anyway. And if you are worried about computers breaking and things going wrong to rebuild, then why would you be driving a computer driven anything modern, let alone a four cam nightmare that is these latest generation V8s.

[Auslandau]

After all the evaluations, comparisons and what ever going on between the RSpec and the GTS ...... really why isn't the comparison done on what is available to buy today and off the shelf brand new as the RSpec was a 1 off special deal?

If this is the case, it would be the GT vs GTS. Guess what, the GTS would win in the war on paper ...... but I would think it is unfair to compare a 65k drove away priced car to something worth near on 100k drive away? The gap is just too large to fairly compare and the comparison becomes null and void.

Wouldnt it be the same as comparing an Camry Sportivo vs an F6?

[XBROO]

Originally Posted by mcnews

In five years it will have gone ahead another generation anyway. And if you are worried about computers breaking and things going wrong to rebuild, then why would you be driving a computer driven anything modern, let alone a four cam nightmare that is these latest generation V8s.

Yep I know that Trev that's why I still got my hardtop. Also not everyone wants to buy brand new, because of the obvious lost as soon as you drive it. So I think that looking down the track, would be what most of us can afford. That's probably the problem and why our beloved Ford is shutting down. But if your wage is less then 80K pa, and you have a mortgage and wife and kids. Then it's more then likely you won't be buying a new car every year. But dosen't mean you should buy a bog stock model, so you buy a performance model that's a few years old.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

After all the evaluations, comparisons and what ever going on between the RSpec and the GTS ...... really why isn't the comparison done on what is available to buy today and off the shelf brand new as the RSpec was a 1 off special deal?

If this is the case, it would be the GT vs GTS. Guess what, the GTS would win in the war on paper ...... but I would think it is unfair to compare a 65k drove away priced car to something worth near on 100k drive away? The gap is just too large to fairly compare and the comparison becomes null and void.

Wouldnt it be the same as comparing an Camry Sportivo vs an F6?

The R Spec is FPV's best chance of competing with the performance of the GTS and its the best current model performance car from FPV even though technically you cant really buy one of the showroom floor anymore.

In that case maybe the comparison should have been done between the GTP and the GTS seeing they are only around 10k difference

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Even that is getting old school now Rodge. The latest systems adjust themselves in milliseconds in response to pitch-yaw acceleration and braking forces etc. and actually firm up their own damping as the hit is taken and then change the damping for the rebound etc. at the same time, effectively changing rebound and compression multiple times a second in real time response to road irregularities and driving style. This tech is also on latest BMW R 1200 GS.

I guess we're talking about the likes of the adaptive dynamics system fitted to the Jaguar XFR that's adapts its suspension on the go. That bike won Autocar N.Z. bike of the year for 2013..wouldn;t mind one in the garage

Originally Posted by Auslandau

After all the evaluations, comparisons and what ever going on between the RSpec and the GTS ...... really why isn't the comparison done on what is available to buy today and off the shelf brand new as the RSpec was a 1 off special deal?

If this is the case, it would be the GT vs GTS. Guess what, the GTS would win in the war on paper ...... but I would think it is unfair to compare a 65k drove away priced car to something worth near on 100k drive away? The gap is just too large to fairly compare and the comparison becomes null and void.

Wouldnt it be the same as comparing an Camry Sportivo vs an F6?

GT-P would then become the most relevant comparison and the price discrepancy isn't anywhere near as great as the regular GT which is currently on super special run-out pricing.

Originally Posted by 40RDT

The R Spec is FPV's best chance of competing with the performance of the GTS and its the best current model performance car from FPV even though technically you cant really buy one of the showroom floor anymore.

In that case maybe the comparison should have been done between the GTP and the GTS seeing they are only around 10k difference

I agree to some extent but in reality I'm sure deals are currently being signed on GT-P's at well below retail as I'd be surprised if some sort of run-out pricing doesn't apply to this vehicle as well after a good haggle. Maybe the negotiated deals currently being done put the price difference at somewhere around $20,000 ?

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by The-ShowStoPPa

With the amount of power the FPV's really make they've never really had to.
Owners on these forums get much quicker times than those magazine journos ever seem to get.

On the otherhand HSV are well known culprits of warmed over press cars.
(Remember that GTO back in 06?)

.......all though I could very well be wrong, considering no one could repeat their claimed 0-100 times for the VE2 GTS..

The FG F6 green press car I evaluated in 2008 was widely rumoured by FPV enthusiasts here who drove it to have had a special press tune and certainly felt like it.

[mcnews]

Nah they are all that good Rodge, yours was just a dud :- )

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Wouldnt it be the same as comparing an Camry Sportivo vs an F6?

Then it'd just be a thread making excuses as to why the F6 is faster in a straight line but it isn't as good as an overall package.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Alan D Segal

Then it'd just be a thread making excuses as to why the F6 is faster in a straight line but it isn't as good as an overall package.

If the Camry was a poofteenth slower to 100 then the f6 maybe you'd be right!

[bigwil]

Got the latest issue of Motor last week and its got a write up on the ups and downs of the history of FPV, it says it pretty much went down hill once David Flint left, not bad but very brief

[shaness8]

Is there any Ford dealers in Sydney?

Was up there for a week and wanted to show the Mrs a Fg F6 while we were driving around, didn't see a Ford dealer anywhere.

Seen all the other brands many times, must be slowly closing them i guess.

[2242100]

Rodge, I was told by a Wheels journalist over a year ago that they were no longer testing 2 up and apparently the R Spec manual test was done 1 up. Not surprising when you look at it's end speed of 189 kmh and the speed also suggests that it was putting out way over 335 kW and that makes sense because it has a temporary overboost feature (the same as my standard FG Turbo).
Actually if you compare it's rolling acceleration with the manual HSV that they tested later in the September 2013 issue, you will see that it finished the 400 metres almost 6 kmh faster than the Commodore.

R Spec 100 kmh to 189 kmh at 400 metres in 8.07 seconds.
HSV 100 to 183.2 kmh at 400 metres in 8.1 seconds.

When it comes to lap times I think it's worth keeping in mind that the overboost feature probably wouldn't last too long once a driver starts running hot laps, so the big difference in times between the two perhaps isn't surprising and the HSV seems to be very well sorted with it's smart suspension, it's certainly a good car. But to me it just doesn't seem to be putting out 430 kW though, I've seen the Cadillac perform better and it's supposed to be less powerful.

On the subject of the New Zealand test times, if they use the GPS Racelogic Performance Box (that I have) or the Racelogic Video VBox, they could possibly have the 1 foot rollout feature enabled and that will typically register a time about 3 tenths quicker than the true time, I believe that's the standard that US Motoring Magazines use. Also at least one of the other VBox models can be used in either 5,10 or 20 hertz modes, so if they were using the 5 hertz mode on one of these units, they could get up to 2 tenths rollout before the unit starts logging.
If they print 0 to 10 or 0 to 20 times, I suggest you look to see if these are a lot faster than the Australian magazines.
As far as the 0 to 100 times are concerned, I'm confident that both cars could actually go under HSV's claimed 4.4 seconds if only they could get enough grip. On a high grip surface my own untuned standard FG XR6 Turbo Auto has managed a 4.56 second time (in 71.67 metres) with a 90 kg driver and full fuel load at high altitude, also the 1 foot rollout feature wasn't enabled.

When it comes to powerful front engined car performance comparisons, I think you really need to compare rolling acceleration times once they are out of first gear where traction can be such a problem.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by tezxr8man

It would have been good to revamp and save our Australian icon and make it relevant again tho

Delete

[Chopped]

And in twenty years, Ford & Holden enthusiasts will still be arguing over which was Australia's quickest and most capable 4 door sedan....GT R SPEC or GTS.....It will become almost mythical

I know one thing that is certain and that is both cars will be sorely missed (except for the few remaining examples).

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by bigwil

Got the latest issue of Motor last week and its got a write up on the ups and downs of the history of FPV, it says it pretty much went down hill once David Flint left, not bad but very brief

I had an email from him the last day he was on the job. Fixed an issue for my GT, that I briefly owned(thanks David) and it was obvious then from the tone of his reply on the issues at FPV, that he had enough of the place.

They really couldn't afford to lose him.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Originally Posted by Rodge

The FG F6 green press car I evaluated in 2008 was widely rumoured by FPV enthusiasts here who drove it to have had a special press tune and certainly felt like it.

That car was at John Andrew Ford in the city and I got to take it for a test drive after the press had used it for release stories. It was fast but I wouldn't say it was quicker than my stock F6 and definately slower than when I had it tuned.