New Submarines

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Grunter

Does Australia, with it's ties to allies that have a significant Sub fleets, really need subs? A couple of the lads were talking about it last night and none of us could answer with any real substance.

I recall hearing some conference on TV were someone mentioned protecting gas lines. Im being serious.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I recall hearing some conference on TV were someone mentioned protecting gas lines. Im being serious.

No, No, No that couldn't be the case. we don't subsidise big energy!.

must be something else, look over there something shiny.

JP

[marty351]

Originally Posted by Grunter

Does Australia, with it's ties to allies that have a significant Sub fleets, really need subs? A couple of the lads were talking about it last night and none of us could answer with any real substance.

Well, for starters, island nation, massive coastlline, anti shipping capability, covert operations/insertions/spying, fleet protection, fear, the list goes on.....

[Polyal]

But who are we protecting ourselves from?

Does anyone seriously believe another country would invade us if we had no subs?

I understand ships, im still sketchy on that new wizz bang planes. I dont know, we got 99 problems and defense aint one IMO. Id rather them beef up domestic forces.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Diesel-electric submarines are amongst the quietest submarines in the world. When they are submerged they are running on batteries which of course is very very quiet. Plus they're cheaper. Nuke boats arent as quiet.

The not-insurmountable problem (in an Australian context) is that we don't have a nuclear power generation industry in Australia to support the construction and maintenance of said nuke boats.

The Japanese Soryu class boats that Abbott & Co have a massive hard-on for are rumoured to be using or experimenting with lithium-ion batteries which will be a bit of a game changer in terms of underwater endurance for a DE sub.

I would prefer we come up with new tech again (as opposed to lithium-ion batteries) Some Aussie scientist has been working with water based sodium ion batteries (not sure how they compare to lithium-ion) But if we can develop something better, build it here, then export it, would be great.

[Franco Cozzo]

Should cut a deal with Mr Obama and let him have an ICBM in Darwin or something lol.

[marty351]

Originally Posted by Polyal

But who are we protecting ourselves from?

Does anyone seriously believe another country would invade us if we had no subs?

I understand ships, im still sketchy on that new wizz bang planes. I dont know, we got 99 problems and defense aint one IMO. Id rather them beef up domestic forces and smack down on these ISIS clowns.

It's all part of a defense strategy. With no armed forces we would be the most useless country in the region.

And if people keep thinking we don't need a military, we soon will be.

We are still a respected nation and will continue to be.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Polyal

But who are we protecting ourselves from?

Does anyone seriously believe another country would invade us if we had no subs?

I understand ships, im still sketchy on that new wizz bang planes. I dont know, we got 99 problems and defense aint one IMO. Id rather them beef up domestic forces and smack down on these ISIS clowns.

Who did we need to protect ourselves from in 1938? Wars have a funny way of sneaking up on us.

Subs/planes/ships are all just part of a deterrent to hopefully make someone think twice or pick on someone else - bit like insurance - hopefully we will never have to use them

[Polyal]

Agreed it would be great if we never need them...but there must be heaps of other countries that dont have a serious defense force.

Its not an insignificant amount of money, we have allies, we have technology now to know when something is coming.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Agreed it would be great if we never need them...but there must be heaps of other countries that dont have a serious defense force.

Its not an insignificant amount of money, we have allies, we have technology now to know when something is coming.

Yes but to give a recent example, did anyone predict Russian troops in Ukraine? If so they would have retired by now.

Part of being an alliance is pulling your own weight (think of it as a football team) Not point a whole team pinning their hopes on one player.

Its a lot of money - but sadly that's the world we live in.

A lot of countries don't have a defense force, but no country has the resources we have

[Polyal]

Our subs and ships wouldnt be help Ukraine would they? We have no one close to us other than NZ....we are lucky that our positions makes any invasion a lot harder than anything in the EU.

We generally get along with everyone, have no long running history of war other than the majors...its just alot of cash that could be spent on fixing up our own country. Even if it was for a few years just put a hold on it and get some new stuff when we actually have the money.

I cant imagine anyone invading us for our coal either (have you seen the price?..joke). The international community wouldnt stand back and let it happen. Lets say China cracked it and wanted QLD...I think we would have a few people ready to help.

[Road_Warrior]

As has been said, I bet Ukraine in 2005 wouldn't have given it a second thought that within 10 years Russia would be waging a proxy war against it.

In 2008-2009 the Syrian Government wouldn't have guessed in 2 years their country would be practically destroyed by a brutal civil war including the rise of IS.

in 1938 Neville Chamberlain genuinely believed that he had guaranteed "peace in our time" with Germany yet in little over a year that was not the case at all.

In 1922 if I had have told you that in 20 years time Japan, our Great War ally who escorted our ANZACS to Gallipoli, would have invaded Korea, China, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand and Myanmar and their military was bombing Darwin and sending submarines into Sydney Harbour, you would have laughed me out of town.

But these are all things that occurred. The Ukraine example is proof that state-on-state violence still occurs despite the intertwining of global politics, economics and G20-whatever talkfests.

The bottom line is that having a robust defence force is like having a comprehensive house insurance policy. It's there if you need it, and covers you for pretty much anything nasty that may happen. Hopefully it won't, but in the event it does, you know you've got the resources to do what needs to be done to protect your interests. Bonus for you if you have a good burglar alarm and/or a big dog to act as a deterrent; and you know that that deterrent isn't just all noise and no action, it is capable of putting bark into bite to see off anyone who doesn't have a good reason to be here.

Yes it costs money and sometimes doesn't work the way we would like straight out of the box, but it is better to have these things than not have them. You wouldn't want your house burning down or getting broken into and have no recourse.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Our subs and ships wouldnt be help Ukraine would they? We have no one close to us other than NZ....we are lucky that our positions makes any invasion a lot harder than anything in the EU.

We generally get along with everyone, have no long running history of war other than the majors...its just alot of cash that could be spent on fixing up our own country. Even if it was for a few years just put a hold on it and get some new stuff when we actually have the money.

I cant imagine anyone invading us for our coal either (have you seen the price?..joke). The international community wouldnt stand back and let it happen. Lets say China cracked it and wanted QLD...I think we would have a few people ready to help.

We only have a Defence force (so no help to Ukraine), the point I bought up was just to show how hard it is to predict wars.

Yes we get along with everyone but we also got along with people during the 1930's Australia and Japan were happily trading during the 1930's and getting along fine. 1940's different story

They don't want coal, they do want Uranium, natural gas etc.

If China cracked not saying they will, great country (Hi China espionage) but as per your example, you can bet others will take the opportunity to get involved (not always on the side you suspect) IF China cracked it, and drew the attention of the US, do you think Russia would use the opportunity to stretch the US? The US may have its hands full and might not be able to assist as much as we want. What would Indonesia do? Large population, close proximity etc. Lets not find out, lets have our own deterrent, but I agree it is expensive buy typically only 3 - 4 % of GDP

Edit Road warrior stated it better than I did, I don't want to pay house insurance (but I do)

[marty351]

Think of a defense force as like a lock on a door.
A cheap one may work well, but when something is determined to get through....

[Polyal]

I find it very very hard to believe that in this day and age something to that extent would happen to Australia.

Im not completely blind, but the economy is bleeding at the moment and yet we still fund these programs.

Think you guys are drawing some very long bows, there is precedence of course as to why one would want such a defense force but comparing the world to 70 years ago is not completely accurate either.

I accept that while things change something stay the same..but in the case IMO the world has evolved a little bit. Even though it doesnt seem like it at times. Our defense mindset seem still stuck in 1940 where the battlefield has moved on since then.

[jpblue1000]

I too question the need and desire to have submarines but if we are going to have it, spending 20-30 Billion dollars lets try and keep much of the money here, in Australia, feeding Australian families, teaching Australian trades paying Australians to design, build and maintain them.
I've spoken to a current serving Australian Navy Lieutenant Commander about our Collins class submarines, and believe our home built subs are fit for purpose so should the next ones.

Spending 20-30 billion Australian tax payers dollars (not governments as they don't have money)is a nation building project, not just a purchase or cost. The money is spent in Australia as much as possible and is returned to the people in taxes and economical spending and a ultimately a fleet of competent submarines. In effect boosting the economy while doing so.

If we outsource we give 20-30 Billion to someone else with no economic benefit at home, we get potentially less competent submarines too.

JP

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I find it very very hard to believe that in this day and age something to that extent would happen to Australia.

Im not completely blind, but the economy is bleeding at the moment and yet we still fund these programs.

Think you guys are drawing some very long bows, there is precedence of course as to why one would want such a defense force but comparing the world to 70 years ago is not completely accurate either.

I accept that while things change something stay the same..but in the case IMO the world has evolved a little bit. Even though it doesnt seem like it at times. Our defense mindset seem still stuck in 1940 where the battlefield has moved on since then.

In this day and age, we're not talking about this day and age as in right now, defence is also about the future as well as the here and now. China is getting very belligerent over its claims to parts of the South China Sea (it's rights over the so-called nine dash line) and is sending ballistic missile submarines into the Indian Ocean to visit Sri Lanka. It isnt inconceivable that there will be some sort of conflict involving China at some point in the next 20-30 years (maybe sooner, who knows?). Indonesia is spending more money and resources than it ever has keeping its vast island archipelago together and all the minority groups and religious extremists under control - imagine a Syrian-style civil war erupting in Indonesia and how that would impact on Australia?

Both scenarios would have a direct impact on Australia. It is all about planning for the future and accounting for what might happen, but hopefully won't.

Incidentally the 70 year old WWII example has two common denominators with the current "war" in the Ukraine: they're both in Europe and both state-on-state violence. And this is despite the development of world affairs and relations since all that time ago. It proves that sometimes, ***** just happens regardless of how far you've come or how much effort you make. Neville Chamberlain worked that out the hard way.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

I too question the need and desire to have submarines but if we are going to have it, spending 20-30 Billion dollars lets try and keep much of the money here, in Australia, feeding Australian families, teaching Australian trades paying Australians to design, build and maintain them.
I've spoken to a current serving Australian Navy Lieutenant Commander about our Collins class submarines, and believe our home built subs are fit for purpose so should the next ones.

Spending 20-30 billion Australian tax payers dollars (not governments as they don't have money)is a nation building project, not just a purchase or cost. The money is spent in Australia as much as possible and is returned to the people in taxes and economical spending and a ultimately a fleet of competent submarines. In effect boosting the economy while doing so.

If we outsource we give 20-30 Billion to someone else with no economic benefit at home, we get potentially less competent submarines too.

JP

100% we need to promote jobs...god knows everything else is dying in the bum.

But, id rather they do it through infrastructure, agriculture etc, something with a bit more longevity. Because once they are built then what? I would hope the buggers would last for 20 years?

[Franco Cozzo]

On the other hand bonds are cheaper than ever at 2.5%, lets borrow heaps of $$$ while its cheap and build a heap of stuff we could use in the future, such as these subs, we've got a tonne of manufacturing workers about to rock up to Centrelink here in Melbourne and a tonne of people in Adelaide who would need the work.

If we didn't persue F35, maybe we could build Sukhoi PAK-FA under license here in Australia?

[Grunter]

I don't doubt the need for a defence force, I'm more questioning the need specifically for Subs.

What specifically can/do they provide to Australia outside of being involved if there were a direct military invasion. I can the need for boats/ships/aircraft/etc., plus all of these can be utilised in peacetime. Genuine question.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Grunter

I don't doubt the need for a defence force, I'm more questioning the need specifically for Subs.

What specifically can/do they provide to Australia outside of being involved if there were a direct military invasion. I can the need for boats/ships/aircraft/etc., plus all of these can be utilised in peacetime. Genuine question.

The ADF I believe see the subs as our greatest deterrent, due to the fact they could be anywhere and are difficult to take out.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

In this day and age, we're not talking about this day and age as in right now, defence is also about the future as well as the here and now. China is getting very belligerent over its claims to parts of the South China Sea (it's rights over the so-called nine dash line) and is sending ballistic missile submarines into the Indian Ocean to visit Sri Lanka. It isnt inconceivable that there will be some sort of conflict involving China at some point in the next 20-30 years (maybe sooner, who knows?). Indonesia is spending more money and resources than it ever has keeping its vast island archipelago together and all the minority groups and religious extremists under control - imagine a Syrian-style civil war erupting in Indonesia and how that would impact on Australia?

Both scenarios would have a direct impact on Australia. It is all about planning for the future and accounting for what might happen, but hopefully won't.

Incidentally the 70 year old WWII example has two common denominators with the current "war" in the Ukraine: they're both in Europe and both state-on-state violence. And this is despite the development of world affairs and relations since all that time ago. It proves that sometimes, ***** just happens regardless of how far you've come or how much effort you make. Neville Chamberlain worked that out the hard way.

Just to add to that very few people predicted World War II, we can all look back in hindsight and see the indicators were there. But England, Australia and US (plus others) were reducing defence spending. If they knew war was imminent, they would have been increasing defence spending.

To make matters worse, due to the low tech involved back then, Australia could simply start to produce planes (Wirraway, Boomerang etc) Today that isnt possible.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Grunter

What specifically can/do they provide to Australia outside of being involved if there were a direct military invasion. I can the need for boats/ships/aircraft/etc., plus all of these can be utilised in peacetime. Genuine question.

Subs are a deterrent. But an invasion scenario isn't the only wartime use of a sub.

Say for example an enemy warship in our territorial waters has shot down a Qantas airliner killing all on board, we deploy a sub to sink that ship to prevent it from shooting down any more innocent aircraft. And to maintain the integrity of our territorial waters.

Or further away, a belligerent blockades the primary shipping lanes we rely on for trade; not a shooting war yet but it could get ugly, we send a sub or two to threaten/harrass/annoy and let them know they haven't got the run of the house.

And this probably still occurs, carrying out reconnaissance of places like North Korea for example to monitor what they're doing with their ballistic missile program. A sub can do this without being detected.

Subs don't just attack other ships and subs, they do other things, but those are some examples.

[CoupeKing]

Just about all of the worlds cargo, both in peace time and war, transits across all the oceans. That's why the sub is number one, especially if your a country in the middle of nowhere surrounded by water. And never mind about these countries with massive Armies parading through their capital city, most havn't got the logistical capacity to move any of them outside their own borders, let alone keep them supplied for an extended period of time. < this is where the Submarine is at it's best, party time.

[lilmattie]

Originally Posted by Polyal

But who are we protecting ourselves from?

Does anyone seriously believe another country would invade us if we had no subs?

I understand ships, im still sketchy on that new wizz bang planes. I dont know, we got 99 problems and defense aint one IMO. Id rather them beef up domestic forces and smack down on these ISIS clowns.

Probably a repost but here's one reason. History provides us a glimpse. Not necessarily an invasion of land, but definitely territorial waters..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Sydney_Harbour

[Polyal]

Are we justifying all this off a war that is not around and not likely to happen?

[Franco Cozzo]

I just like spending other peoples money.

[lilmattie]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Are we justifying all this off a war that is not around and not likely to happen?

Having any type of military is in preparation of war and for the defense of the country/people.

Every civilization has had a military. It's because there 'will' be wars, and they 'are' likely to happen, even now. Especially in financially fiscal environments.

"There will always be wars and rumours of wars"

EDIT - I would prefer for Australia to build it's own, maintain it's own Subs, Cars etc. and be totally self-reliant. But for that to happen, I think a LOT has to change and I don't think many people would be willing to do it - because it will cost them too much personally. We are a country of capitalists, and our capitalism is killing us.

I'm pro-Australian manufacturing, but I don't see how it's possible at the moment. It needs something dramatic to change.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Are we justifying all this off a war that is not around and not likely to happen?

I dont want war, but it could happen, the likelyhood of war varys significantly. Take the current Ukraine conflict, France and Germany have opened talks with Ukraine/Russia and have come up with a ceasefire. Should this ceasefire fail US is under pressure and has openly stated that it will consider sending "defensive" weapons to Ukraine. Russia doesn't distinguish between defensive and offensive weapons and any weapons supplied to Ukraine are weapons right on Russia's doorstep (and to some US would have put weapons into the Motherland) This will be highly provocative to Russia, but US and others want to defend Ukraine's sovereign rights.

I hope calm heads prevail, but look at Russia, their economy has tanked, their dollar devalued etc (very similar to Germany prior to World War II) it doesn't take much to start a war, the ingredients are already there.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I just like spending other peoples money.

Hell yeah brah, hit me up wit some of them hookers. Craig's account.