Wheels August 2009

[zebby]

Hey Guy's,

just received in the mail. I think you all are not going to like the cover. Sorry, don't have a scanner, but the cover reads as such,

Hemi Hot
New-age Commodore powers up
Hottest atmo six since Charger!

Hi-tech V6 set to smoke Falcon!
Direct-injection 3.6L/225kw/6-speed auto

Haven't read the article as yet, but seems to me to be of those all hail Holden stories, they can do no wrong.

[Stefan]

Whats an atmo?

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Whats an atmo?

Naturally aspirated.


I still wouldnt believe what I read in Wheels. We all remember the GTHO last month. What a waste of a story that was.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Naturally aspirated.


I still wouldnt believe what I read in Wheels. We all remember the GTHO last month. What a waste of a story that was.

Yep and remember, the only thing separating those guys is an office partition...

[Falc'man]

Same thing will happen. The 225kW will happily run 14.0 at time of release, then a few months later it's struggling to do high 14's. By then, the spin would have cemented the idea into most people's heads that this V6 is super quick.

[naddis01]

All estimations from the article:
3.6L - 225kW @ 6400rpm, 370Nm @ 5200rpm.
3.0L - 200kW @ 7000rpm, 302Nm @ 5700rpm.

FG for comparison:
4.0L - 195kW @ 6000rpm, 391Nm @ 3250rpm.

Pretty good effort really for the 3.6 albeit high in the rev range. Out does 100Nm per litre. Thats if they are on the money, but they are using some results from Cadillac as a benchmark.

[madmelon]

The FG out does 100Nm/L too when you run it on premium- in fact, it gets the same Nm/L figure as that,all without direct injection!
I wonder what fuel those guestimate figures are based on....and how much the Falcon has left in it for the next update...

[WASP]

Let the turbo Ford do away with it. With the power and fuel economy these FG T's are making why would you bother with a high powered N/T 6 if you are going to pay a premium for a performance sedan over the pov pack which are $40k these days anyway. RRP there's less than $5k difference between a XR6/SV6 and the T6 option. Not sure were the Hemi 6 will come in but I would imagine around the $42k + ORC like the rest of the N/A 6's sports family sedan offerings.

[barbarian]

6 cylinder power wars begins

[Hubble80]

My wife has a VZ SVZ which is the 3.6L, but not the High Output version (SV6). I have owned a swag of V6 Commodores in my time and believe the Alloytec motor is the worst of them. They make a heap of noise but no performance!!! Holden like to up the power ratings on the V6's however torque and economy normally suffer. We are lucky to get under 11L/100kms out of the wifes SVZ!!! ... Hence why I am on Ford Forum. The SVZ will probably be my last Commodore!

[T3ts50]

The DI V6 will probably only be in the premium Commodores like the SV6, Calais, Statesmen and Caprice. I dont think the average punter looks at power figures when buying these types of cars otherwise they would buy a V8.

I dont really see what the big deal is though, considering they will be priced pretty close to the XR6T and G6ET.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by naddis01

All estimations from the article:
3.6L - 225kW @ 6400rpm, 370Nm @ 5200rpm.
3.0L - 200kW @ 7000rpm, 302Nm @ 5700rpm.

FG for comparison:
4.0L - 195kW @ 6000rpm, 391Nm @ 3250rpm.

Pretty good effort really for the 3.6 albeit high in the rev range. Out does 100Nm per litre. Thats if they are on the money, but they are using some results from Cadillac as a benchmark.

Those numbers (for the 3.6 anyway) are just carbon copy cadilac numbers. For Holden's sake i hope they retune it to make some more torque/lower down than go for the full 225kw. I think this engine will be a big improvement over what they have now....will it take down Ford. On paper maybe, real life, not likely.

I think those power numbers (for the cadilac) were on premium fuel too, so that is an issue. On 95 a FG I6 makes 200+kw and 400+nm so its not like we have to be too worried. The cost of the DI engine (plust 6 sp auto) will make sure its only in top line commodores (SV6, calais). For base cars you are looking at a sizeable torque issue with only 300 odd nm from the 3.0 DI. THey might get a fuel burn advantage but it won't be much...Ford is already at 9.9l/100 for the 6sp auto base xt and they might squeeze another 0.1 or so out for FG Mk2. Holden is in mid 10s at present (for the base and heavilly econotuned engine) and low 11s for the top endine, so even if they get a full 1l/100km improvement (unlikely IMO) they will struggle to beat ford anyway.

THese numbers provide further proof that something is very wrong with the alloytec, and has been from the start. 100nm a litre was the benchmark for engines for some time, but once you add DI you should be well and truly over that. As much as 110nm is quite easilly achievable if your base engine is working well. Holden gets 102.7nm/L if they get to 370 on the 3.6, worse again on the 3.0. This is with DI!!!! They migth improve it at the expense of power (i would) but still not great. An FG I6 on 95 Ron gets 102nm/L - without DI!!!! Hell the much abused duratec V6 makes almost 370nm from its 3.7 litres....for existing versions without DI. If and when Ford brings that engine here with DI it will obliterate the alloytec too. What lemon that thing is!!!!

[naddis01]

I think from memory the article was talking up 9.4L/100km for the 3.0. Was wheels speculation though.

Yes the 3L will be on lower models. 3.6L on higher models. I was told a few months back that the 3.6L will be optional on the lower models.

[Windsor220]

The real scary thing is in a couple of years my XR8 will be outpowered by the base family hack :

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by naddis01

I think from memory the article was talking up 9.4L/100km for the 3.0. Was wheels speculation though.

Yes the 3L will be on lower models. 3.6L on higher models. I was told a few months back that the 3.6L will be optional on the lower models.

That sounds about right. I hope it does get close to 9.4 because with the weight of the car it will have the performance of a medium car i reckon. A mazda 6/honda accord euro pump out 230 nm for their weight (100-200kg lighter) and if they only get 300nm out of the 3.0DI they will have issues hauling the commodores weight. If they put the 5sp auto in the base cars (they couldn't keep using that 4sp surely....) they it won't be much quicker then those medium cars. They both burn around 9l/100km by the way.

[naddis01]

6 speed auto across the range apparently...

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

The real scary thing is in a couple of years my XR8 will be outpowered by the base family hack :

Progression i guess but at least it wasnt as bad as the old VT1 GTS being 'superseeded by a VT2 Exec though :

[Wretched]

It may be marketing BS but DI is a big step and I believe Ford should be looking at implementing this ASAP on the I6 or ditching the I6 for the DI Duratec V6 it will be a big mistake if they don't.

This technology is all about efficiency and economy. What they can acheive out of a smaller displacement engine with the DI is the advantage. I have the Wheels mag here haven't opened it yet but am keen to look at this.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Wretched

It may be marketing BS but DI is a big step and I believe Ford should be looking at implementing this ASAP on the I6 or ditching the I6 for the DI Duratec V6 it will be a big mistake if they don't.

This technology is all about efficiency and economy. What they can acheive out of a smaller displacement engine with the DI is the advantage. I have the Wheels mag here haven't opened it yet but am keen to look at this.

I don't doubt DI is a very big jump wretched. In fact Ford will either put it on the I6 eventually or go duratec. Most people believe the latter but there is renewed interest from Ford head office about the I6 and you never know where it might end up being used globally (hence the small chance it might get the Di treatement eventually). Probably within the next 5 years you will see one of these two things happen for sure.

The problem is that in this case, due to issues with the alloytec in base design (problems well beyond my understanding of engines frankly) DI is really only covering up problems. Whether it is the 'designed for FWD small cars' or just general cutting of corners by GM powertrain in its initial development the alloytec has issues. Some minor, some much more major. The DI version is the only one i would consider even competitive, let alone class leading. 300 nm from a 3.0 DI V6 with all the latest tech is not world class, no matter what spin Holden puts on it...even if it does burn 9.4 L/100km.

[SSbaby]

The Alloytec isn't a bad engine as far as performance is concerned. All Holden need to do with the current 3.6L engine is to give it a lower diff (to match Falcon's) so the driver better exploits the engine's torque band. Another thing Holden can also do is retune the ECM for better low rpm/part throttle response but I'm guessing Holden believe most drivers would prefer a relaxed throttle response over the instant response of (say) a Toyota Aurion V6 which is more difficult to drive smoothly, particularly in stop/start traffic.

IMHO the Alloytec doesn't really 'need' a power increase but most owners would welcome the increased power figures for all they're worth. In any case, it doesn't matter what Holden do with their V6, it will never be as racey as their V8.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by naddis01

All estimations from the article:
3.6L - 225kW @ 6400rpm, 370Nm @ 5200rpm.
3.0L - 200kW @ 7000rpm, 302Nm @ 5700rpm.

FG for comparison:
4.0L - 195kW @ 6000rpm, 391Nm @ 3250rpm.

Pretty good effort really for the 3.6 albeit high in the rev range. Out does 100Nm per litre. Thats if they are on the money, but they are using some results from Cadillac as a benchmark.

I don't think the performance will be much different to the current 3.6L in VE. The power increase comes at the upper reaches of the power band so it's not like it's going to be felt unless the driver winds it out in each gear. I don't think the fuel economy will be much different either.

I base my comments on performance figures for some of Cadillac's V6 models. The Caddy's basically weigh too much to offer any significant performance improvement. Might be a different story if Holden slotted the engine in a lighter car (1400kg) like a Nissan 350Z.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Wretched

It may be marketing BS but DI is a big step and I believe Ford should be looking at implementing this ASAP on the I6 or ditching the I6 for the DI Duratec V6 it will be a big mistake if they don't.

Why would it be a mistake if they don't?

Originally Posted by Wretched

This technology is all about efficiency and economy. What they can acheive out of a smaller displacement engine with the DI is the advantage. I have the Wheels mag here haven't opened it yet but am keen to look at this.

A smaller capacity in this case won't mean a reduction in mass of the vehicle, unless they've saved weight elsewhere. You will still have a 1700kg 3L V6 that has very poor low down power. Even when driven sedately it will still struggle to get anywhere near the Falcon's economy.

[Bossxr8]

Why would Ford care about the DI V6 having more power than the base Falcon 6 when the turbo would absolutely smash it.

[robertjp]

If FORD were clever they would offer a higher spec model of the XR6 which has had the ECM flashed to a more sports orientated setting.

Would be nasty to the aftermarket tunes, but could be done cheaply in house. Whether they do this and start to encroach on the "turbo" is one for the bean counters and marketing department.

[Iggypoppin']

Oh come on can't they just put turbos on everything and be done with it ;)

[Wretched]

Why would it be a mistake? Ford are wanting to show the Falcon is fuel efficient yet powerful enough to still kick some but. I didn't state Ford should user smaller engines, generally manufacturers have been able to better utilise smaller engines with DI, more efficient than larger displaced engines, just have a look at what VW have done with the Golf. Just think of what the I6 would be like with DI.

Realistically there is pretty much stuff all chance of Ford spending any $$ on weight saving without taking something out and realistically there isn't much more than can take away without spending on exotic materials. Utilising DI and the six speed auto will increase the fuel economy from the current cars, that's what the general public want. The turbo Falcons can also have DI for the performance enthusiasts.

What I said in my previous post has absolutely nothing to do with performance per say, it is all about showing advancements for better efficiencies, so the Holden might be slower (say 0.5 sec to the 100km, because that's what families look for in a car) but if it can do the job using say 1l/100km on the average better than the Falcon then of course people are going to look at it.

Ford have the opportunity to show case the Falcon with the next update or even model and I hope they do it. My bet is they'll ride on the success of the FG for a new more years. If they don't want to spend the $$ anymore on the I6 what they could do is introduce the DI Duratec V6 (TT as well) for higher spec cars and keep the I6 for the lower spec, so as to introduce the buying public to the new engine while at the same time phase out the I6.

Ball is in Ford's court, my hat off to Holden for at least doing something.

[spvd02]

You mean, have the duratec in the base-model and save the inline 6 for the upper spec models right? Because there is no way the duratec will match the performance of the current engine.
I would like to see the current engine developed instead, because I wouldn't want to have to fork out the extra cash to get the I6 in a premium model, and I'm sure it still has plenty of life left in it. Mind you, I do think the I6 with DI would offer a scary level of performance for a family car : .
From what Burela has said, there is a plan in place for the I6, and they are going forward with it, which is good news. They have a great engine, so they may as well keep it.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

The real scary thing is in a couple of years my XR8 will be outpowered by the base family hack :

: I Know what THAT felt like...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by robertjp

If FORD were clever they would offer a higher spec model of the XR6 which has had the ECM flashed to a more sports orientated setting.

Would be nasty to the aftermarket tunes, but could be done cheaply in house. Whether they do this and start to encroach on the "turbo" is one for the bean counters and marketing department.

I suspect one of the main reasons that the XR6 uses exactly the same drive train as all the other N/A falcons is operating expenses such as insurance premiums, fuel etc.

There appears to be a huge market for vehicles that look a bit sporty but have the same cost of ownership as a basic model.

The bottom line is that the majority of buyers do not care about "more power than holden", if they did falcon would have been outselling commodore for the past 10 years.

[Mr Hardware]

let's DI the I6 and blow 'em all away.