Who sold the most in Cash for Clunkers? That was skewed too!

[Ohio XB]

We've all heard how great the Japanese brand cars sold in the Cash for Clunkers program. Well, that's going by the Environmental Protection Agency's method of rating sales by car configuration, not necessarily by car model.

What's that mean? Well, you may have heard that Edmunds.com has a different top 10 than the government does. Here's why.

The government is going by the EPA's method of separating each car by configuration, not model. In otherwords, for example, the Ford Escape is available in a 4 cylinder, V6, and hybrid models. Add to that manual (with the 4 cylinder) and automatic transmissions, and 4WD as well, and you now have the Escape looked at by the government as 6 (SIX!) different models...

4 cylinder automatic
4 cylinder manual
4 cylinder 4WD
V6 automatic
V6 4WD
Hybrid

So, individual configuration sales of this car are going to be low numbers because there are six configurations of the Escape as opposed to a car like the Toyota Corrolla which only has 2; 4 cylinder manual or automatic.

Edmunds.com looks at car sales the way you and I would. An Escape is an Escape, no matter what drivetrain it has. When you go by this, as Edmunds.com does, the sales outlook during the cash for clunkers deal is GREATLY different. Here it is side-by-side compared to the government's ratings...


Whose top 10?
The government's list of the top 10 vehicles purchased under the cash-for-clunkers program differs sharply from the top 10 compiled by Edmunds.com.

Edmunds.com's list (Nameplate)

1. Ford Escape
2. Ford Focus
3. Honda Civic
4. Ford F-150
5. Toyota Corolla
6. Toyota Camry
7. Dodge Caliber
8. Jeep Patriot
9. Honda CR-V
10. Chevy Silverado

DOT's list (Model)

1. Toyota Corolla
2. Honda Civic
3. Ford Focus fwd
4. Toyota Camry
5. Hyundai Elantra
6. Toyota Prius
7. Nissan Versa
8. Ford Escape fwd
9. Honda Fit
10. Honda CR-V 4wd

Source: Edmunds.com; Department of Transportation

Ok, so this board won't put them side-by-side.


Yes, Ford sold even more F-150's than the Toyota Corrolla. That's because, again, there are so many different configurations of the F-150.


It is my guess that the reason this is not pointed out as often in the news as just the straight government numbers is because we are supposed to believe that everyone is shunning trucks and SUV/CUV's and buying the "more fuel efficient" Japanese brand cars, which as you can see is just bull.



Steve

[XDV800]

Typical beauracratic blindfolding.
The government wants their beliefs to be backed up by real evidence showing that they are always right. If they got it wrong then they just throw millions at a consultancy firm to rearrange the tabling to disguise the fact they're peddling BS half the time. Possibly?

[Luke Plaizier]

Were there published numbers to either of those lists?

And why is that dang Hybrid Escape still not made in RHD for us yet?


Lukeyson

[FPV+fteT3]

It's not just the aussie govt that has a spin department no matter the result the govt will make it work for them even if they have to spend millions on studdies to prove it. Must be great to always be right.

[Chilla]

Governments of all persuasions work on the old 3B's....."Bullshite baffles brains".

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Were there published numbers to either of those lists?

And why is that dang Hybrid Escape still not made in RHD for us yet?


Lukeyson

Here you go.

This is the governments statement about this on their website....

http://www.cars.gov/files/official-i...ust26Stats.pdf

Note that only 59% of the new vehicles purchased were cars.



I guess you have to have a membership at edmonds.com to get access to the article with their numbers, but here is an article that references their information..

http://www.autonews.com/article/2009...NA06/308249953


I suppose you don't have a RHD version of the Escape because the Territory is better anyways, so I am told. I suppose it depends on your needs?



Steve

[vztrt]

As long as Ford benefited more from this program then the other makes I'm happy as it brings more cash for R&D.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by vztrt

As long as Ford benefited more from this program then the other makes I'm happy as it brings more cash for R&D.

Agreed. And yes Ohio XB, the territory is better than the escape.

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by ltd

Agreed. And yes Ohio XB, the territory is better than the escape.

See Lukeyson, I told you.


Steve

[Luke Plaizier]

Gee, you're one politically astute player there....! I think that Escapes sold in Oz are built in South Africa though, so I can't give any reciprocal US compliments (although my 8yo eldest was born in San Francisco, and she is quite pretty...!)

Comparisons aside, my point was derailed.

Let me rephrase then. "And why are there no dang Ford Hybrids made in RHD for us yet?"


Lukeyson

[outback_ute]

Interesting thread Steve. Good to see that companies like Edmunds are on the ball to get real information - I wonder whether the mainstream news agencies ran what they were spoon-fed?

Luke one issue I can see is that the US Escape has moved away from the model sold here (well it used to be). I'm sure the Toyota Prius loses money & is basically a PR exercise, which they can afford - could Ford?

[terri tx]

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

See Lukeyson, I told you.


Steve

Ha ha ha

[mrbaxr6t]

I don't know about you guys but I really grow tired of all this evidence shuffling and spin doctoring, and whats more I care nothing for what they tell me because its told to me to push an agenda, so I buy what I like regardless of what they tell me everybody else is doing. When are politicians going to wake up and realize we catch them lying and spin doctoring, and we hate them for it. This also applies to the media, every thing they report seems to be biased in some way, what happened to unbiased reports on the news and on things like car sales and everything else.

[Ohio XB]

I wonder whether the mainstream news agencies ran what they were spoon-fed?

Yes, they did. You can read the government results EVERYWHERE because people like to hate the Big3, and any ammunition is just more for the bandwagon. It is also on most newscasts.

Gee, you're one politically astute player there....!

Two things there, I am open minded and also I am not an arrogant American. Reality is what it is and I like to know what it is so that I don't look like an idiot.

....I also lobbed that one up there on purpose. I like to laugh too.

"And why are there no dang Ford Hybrids made in RHD for us yet?"

People prefer the Territory??

...what happened to unbiased reports on the news and on things like car sales and everything else.

That went out during the 1980's I think.



Steve

[Bent8]

Some light reading...

http://thecomingdepression.blogspot....02-sold-i.html

[chevypower]

I am glad people bought F150s and not Prius.' It was all about stimulating new car sales, and so there was an incentive only up to 2mpg over your old vehicle. It would be nice if they could rule out imports, but that wouldn't be fair to the thousands of dealers and numerous distributors who employ thousands.
One thing I am surprised though. The Ford Escape gained more popularity than the Ford Edge. I personally think the Ford Edge is a much, much, MUCH better vehicle. I know there is no Ford Edge Hybrid at this stage... but still, they weren't all hybrid sales.

[Burnout]

Originally Posted by Bent8

Some light reading...

http://thecomingdepression.blogspot....02-sold-i.html

Wow & only $3 for all the depression survival guides.

[Ohio XB]

I just found that the link I posted in one of my earlier posts is not available to everyone, so here is the article...




Clunker top 10? Depends who's counting
Government, Edmunds have different view

Jesse Snyder
Automotive News
August 24, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

The Toyota Corolla is the No. 1 vehicle purchased under the cash-for-clunkers program, federal administrators say in releases touting the greening of American roads.

No, Edmunds.com says. The top clunker-program purchase is the Ford Escape crossover. The Corolla is No. 5, right behind the Ford F-150 full-sized pickup.

Edmunds.com's top 10 has three crossovers, two pickups and five small or mid-sized sedans. The feds' top 10 has eight cars, two crossovers and no pickups.

Why the difference?

In the government's list, each vehicle with a different drivetrain is counted separately. No. 8, for example, is the Escape with front-wheel drive. The four-wheel-drive Escape is counted separately.

Add up all versions of the Escape, Edmunds.com says, and it tops the list.

That's not the only difference. While the government's database covers all submitted clunker deals, the feds have not released unit sales for the vehicles on its top 10. And the government hasn't released a full list of vehicles in clunker transactions beyond those 10.

Last week, Automotive News requested the complete data under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. Clunkers administrators say they'll respond within 20 business days.


This following part seems to have been added since I originally posted this topic. Also, this spot in the article is where the table I posted above is located so I am not going to post it again.



Edmunds.com admits its statistics are incomplete. It takes sales numbers supplied by dealers that it says represent 30 percent of all U.S. dealers and extrapolates from the data.

J.D. Power and Associates follows U.S. sales but is not tracking clunker transaction data. Its Power Information Network does not capture which dealer transactions involve clunkers.

"The waters are very, very muddy, and we don't see a chance to unmuddy them," says Power spokesman John Tews.

All agree that most clunker customers are trading in light trucks and buying more fuel-efficient vehicles. But the two lists paint quite different results for the program.

In the government's top 10, Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. dominate with three vehicles each. In Edmunds.com's list, Ford Motor Co. leads all makers with three vehicles, followed by two each for Honda, Toyota and Chrysler Group and one for General Motors Co.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Let me rephrase then. "And why are there no dang Ford Hybrids made in RHD for us yet?"


Lukeyson

Probably could have something to do with the Escape being about as popular as aids in Australia. Which depending on your marketing dept could be every reason to import it, or every reason not to.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Probably could have something to do with the Escape being about as popular as aids in Australia. Which depending on your marketing dept could be every reason to import it, or every reason not to.

They sold 5 Escapes last month. Repeat that, 5.

When are they going to kill it and give us the Kuga.

[Wally]

I'm battling to understand what the govt conspiracy is? That US buyers didn't buy fuel efficient cars in favour of inefficient Fords? That someone is picking on Ford or didn't heap accolades and cudos on them...what?

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Wally

I'm battling to understand

We already knew that.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

We already knew that.

Indeed. Its pretty obvious what steve was implying....i thought it was us Ford faithful that can't see the truth due to bias wally. In this case it sounds well and truly like the situation is reversed.

[Wally]

Same old chestnut, no plausible answer. I probably own/operate more Fords than you do Swordsman88, how does that make me biased? Mind explaining what the OP's indignation is, without resorting to petit swipes or is that what the thread was intended to be, just another excuse for grown up men to play teenager?

[outback_ute]

Originally Posted by Wally

Mind explaining what the OP's indignation is

I thought it was pretty clear - due to the way the vehicle sales are split along 2wd/4wd drivetrains that gives a false figure of what the most popular vehicles are. Conveniently a lot of the SUV/pickups drop out of the top 10.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

I thought it was pretty clear - due to the way the vehicle sales are split along 2wd/4wd drivetrains that gives a false figure of what the most popular vehicles are. Conveniently a lot of the SUV/pickups drop out of the top 10.

I undertsand that there is an implication that the Govt, through some sense of green credentials is splittiing the SUV.4WD figures to elevate Japanese or preferred vehicle type to the top of the list, to avoid condemnation of taxpayer monies being spent on gas guzzlers, etc, etc. What I don't understand is why that is detrimental to Ford or pas c'est. As I understood it, the Feds wanted to stimulate the auto industry, not just one maker.

Ohio XB a short sentence would suffice.

[Ohio XB]

Because it supports the "perception" that American brand cars are inferior to Japanese brand cars (which is in contradiction to recent official surveys) and that Americans continue to acknowledge this in their purchasing decisions, which they do not. What is wrong with printing the truth, that American brand cars were in the majority of preferred purchases when they were given the choice between foreign brand and US brand cars during the program?

I'm sure you've seen the videos of the anti-American car company Congressmen and Senators as they perpetuated class envy on national television (perhaps at youtube).


Steve

[Wally]

Yes, but your argument doesn't hold water. You have already stated the public purchases were biased towards American, the program is finished and the program was not a marketing or popularity contest (or maybe it was). From your own list, the perceptions you are alluding to are actually skewed in favour of the US automakers and in particular the WASP owned one, in disregard for the Asian owned, American built units that are termed "Japanese" through some want for nationalistic "class" identity.

[Ohio XB]

The list of cars that were purchased during the Cash for Clunkers program by volume, in order of most to least, was performed in such a way that favors the Japanese brand cars and provides a false illusion of what cars were most purchased during the program.

The government's method:

Vehicles are broken down by drivetrains.
Car "A" only has 4 cylinder engines and is offered with a manual or automatic transmission. If 100 car "A's" with manual tranmissions are sold and 150 car "A's" with automatic tranmissions are sold the government does not count that as 250 car "A's" being sold, like the average, reasonable person would. The government instead counts that as only 100 car "A's" with manual sold and only 150 car "A's" with automatics sold. Therefore, the government counts them as follows: (All figures for illustration purposes only)

Car "A"-automatic 150
Car "A" manual 100

Also in the government's report they do not stipulate which drivetrain in the car at each position was present, so the reader doesn't even have a clue to the government's method.

But most Americans, and I would presume Aussies, would instead count this as 250 car "A's" sold.


Now, if another company sells car "B", but car "B" is sold with a 4 cylinder FWD engine with auto or manual trans, 4 cylinder 4WD, V6 engine with auto trans, a V6 with 4WD, and a Hybrid version of the car the government considers each version of car "B" to be a separate vehicle; six vehicles total, even though, again, most reasonable people just count the same vehicle with the different drivetrains as one vehicle. As a result of the governments method, lets say the following were true. The following numbers of the different drive trains of car "B" are as follows: (All figures for illustration purposes only)

Car "B" - 4 cylinder manual 50
Car "B" - 4 cylinder auto 65
Car "B" - 4 cylinder 4WD 20
Car "B" - V6 auto 70
Car "B" - V6 4WD 35
Car "B" - Hybrid 35

Here again, most reasonable people would say that there was a total of 275 car "B's" sold, but this is not how the government is reporting it. Instead, they are reporting each different drive train as a separate vehicle, and none of them total more than Car "A" with either a manual or automatic trans, which then makes it appear that more car "A's" were sold than car "B's", according to the government's system. One could probably say that a part of car "B's" success in selling more than car "A" is it's wider market that it appeals to due to its range of power train options.


Steve


Hello Steve.

You post has been edited to remove the personal content. It’s not required to make a point any point for that matter.

Regards
Ian

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Wally

Same old chestnut, no plausible answer. I probably own/operate more Fords than you do Swordsman88, how does that make me biased? Mind explaining what the OP's indignation is, without resorting to petit swipes or is that what the thread was intended to be, just another excuse for grown up men to play teenager?

Seems i hit a bit of nerve there.....

It would seem we have misread you wally. Your recent record of posting illustrates that you are not only completely impartial but of course, as backed up by your extensive ownership of Fords, well and truly pro-Ford. I'm sure plenty of other members will be able to jump to your defence since Falc'man, myself and outback_ute have so shockingly misrepresented your position....

Okay that sarcasm may not have been called for.....

Stepping back for a moment, myself and others seemed to have misread your post...we felt you didn't not see the obvious that Ohio has pointed out. That the US government, for whatever political reason, has basically continued to use a highly questionable and frankly misleading reporting sytem on cash for clunkers purchases. Steve has pointed out clealry some of the reasons the gov. may have done this, i'm not up with the US poltiics to the same degree obviously so will leave that to him.

As for bias, i find it very puzzling that someone with your demonstrated insight into business practices and success, which you have so often laid out, would question the impact of such a widely publicized program on the market perception of the US auto makers (including Ford). Fact is Ford was not only one of the US auto makers to seriously benefit from the program, it was the NUMBER ONE AUTO MAKER PERIOD based on sales to come out on top. If Obama and co are trying to play politics to force GM (which is basically government owned anyway) to do its bidding RE the production of environmental cars the so be it. BUT Ford is not a government owned corporation, it responds to what the market wants (which is as it should) and in doing that, it has been able to seriously improve its market position. If selling F series trucks as part of cash for clunkers is what the market wants, then fact is fact.

I think Steve's point is that not only is there some politics being played here, the resulting public perceptoin that the 'foreign' makers are more atuned to what the public wants, to Ford's detriment, shows the negative impact of the governments position. In effect, they are harming Ford and helping the foreign auto makers. So much for thanking Ford for not calling on US taxpayers to help out.....