The Elitism debate

[ilsautomotive]

The 'elitism' issue highlighted in Russell's post is a complex piece of psychology that I happen to have a great interest in. The bottom line is that the elitism we sometimes see on this forum is reflected elsewhere in various examples throughout history and around the world. But it is often the most basic examples of elitism that are most absurd, yet fascinating. In the automotive world, a few of the biggest themes are:

1) Elitism passed from one generation to the next: The kid whose Datsun 120Y was indimidated at the lights by a then new XE 351 now has a new XR8 and is rearing to to beat up on everyone below him
2) The view that the world is a hierarchy with the elite rich at the top and the great unwashed below, and that the purpose of life is to climb as high as possible. Thus the VZ Senator driver will sneer at the VR Acclaim driver to reinforce/justify his 'status'. Of course, he will in turn be sneered at when he pulls up next to an AMG E55...
3) The need for a victim: the man who builds up tremendous anger in his stressful daily office grind to pay for his new Boxter will want to take it out on random victims on the road - whom he feels are scum that should get out of his way. He will be further infuriated to see that he is the least happy person around.
4) Justifying one's own by closed-mindedly opposing all other interpretations: this occurs at so many levels that the mind boggles. The biggest is religion, as each faith dismisses the others as evil and thus we invent war. On a small scale, there will be bitter rivalry between gangs in cities, or violent brawls between opposing football supporters. Then, of course, there are different groups on the forums such as A/B series and E series. Do you think it ends there? Within E seies alone, EB II owners have bagged EB I owners; XR6 owners have bagged GLi owners, Fairmont owners have bagged Futura owners, 5.0 owners have bagged 4.0 owners... it never ends.

The reverse operates when people see the ugliness of elitism and deliberately insist on driving something humble. From this high horse they will mock people with prestige cars as being insecure or financially stupid, and thus creating 'extremist anti-elitism'. To my mind it is one of the most amazing psychological feats when a BMW 7 Series and a '76 Corolla driver at the lights will both look down their noses at each other for opposite reasons. It is such a perverse form of perfection and harmony.

Good luck to anyone wanting to completely stamp this out in a hurry - the closest thing will be discouraging elitism among our peers, and knowing who should be ignored. For the precious few who do not suffer from any form of the elitism disease, they can get along totally irrespective of what they drive. The best thing we can do is aspire to being like this, yet accepting that others will approach the same situation from a far more primitive mindset.

Cheers,
Jack

[mcflux]

But E-series is teh 1337!!!1

Good post however, categorising forms of elitism can help clarify some members' personas and posts (by either branding or dispersing the elitism factor). Which makes us more understanding to why they posted in the way they did, or behave in the way they do. (Be it good, bad, or ugly behaviour)

Oh, and Wheezers are the best powerplant :P Pffft clevosauruses and four-point-slows just pale in comparison :monkes:

[Sourbastard]

Are you saying my personality is catagorized by elitism? You're only saying that because im better then you.







loser.



:P

[Pilch]

I think the difficult thing is that most elitist type behaviour on the forums is very much humurous tongue in cheek stuff between friends. Only a very small minority genuinely argue to the Nth degree that there car/engine/series/fuel type is superior and there are no if's but's or maybe's about it. People that do take it seriously ultimately don't last anyway... remember sbutler anyone?

No doubt it exists, but how much is just having a fun dig , and how much is serious argument to defend the status quo of your passion. I suppose it is a fine line sometimes.

And Dave, everyone knows a clevosawus has more potential then a little old weezer :P

[Walkinshaw]

Originally Posted by Trouty

Fairmont owners have bagged Futura owners

Rightfully so..........scum

Originally Posted by Trouty

5.0 owners have bagged 4.0 owners

I usualy can't hear their abuse, they're usual too far behind

[HollowVoice]

i own a GLi, only thing under me is EA GL's.
my EA series 8 cops abuse and laughter from BA/AU owners, but i give my own back

[Polyal]

I have seriously never read any "elitism" posts, its all usually in good fun. Only when it gets personal has it gone to far.

[niko]

you dont have to read it, you hear it everywere and usually its a good way to have some fun.

[big_waity]

Three Cheers for Anti-Elitism!!!

That said, I must admit that I have not seen nor heard any real elitsm. Except of course for Nudge with his EA when he parked it next to Flappist's F6, but even that was a joke.

[fiery]

The only way people can really feel more 'elite' is if those that they are hanging ИИИИИ on react........
Ignore it and they get bored...

[GreenMachine]

I'm bored already and I only own an EB!

[BOOSTDEF]

bah... just bear in mind this..

BA Vs Modded E series
30k+ Vs 11k and a bloody good car
stock boredom Vs nothing but fun
Debt for 5 years and worries about insurance and serviceing Vs drive it, fix a head for $150, change a cam with 3 spanners and a zip tie.

If it takes someone to own a certain car(or pay a certain amount) to feel important, really says a lot.

I know which car id prefer... maybe in 10 years ill own a BA, and saying the same thing :P

[fiery]

Originally Posted by BOOSTDEF

I know which car id prefer... maybe in 10 years ill own a BA, and saying the same thing :P

I intend on keeping my poor old EF for as long as possible but I would also like a BA one day........... but on one condition (it has to be the phantom colour).......... lol

sad but true :togo:

[big_waity]

Originally Posted by BOOSTDEF

bah... just bear in mind this..

BA Vs Modded E series
30k+ Vs 11k and a bloody good car
stock boredom Vs nothing but fun
Debt for 5 years and worries about insurance and serviceing Vs drive it, fix a head for $150, change a cam with 3 spanners and a zip tie.

If it takes someone to own a certain car(or pay a certain amount) to feel important, really says a lot.

I know which car id prefer... maybe in 10 years ill own a BA, and saying the same thing :P

Are we thinking about the same E-Series cars?

I know mine owes me a bit over 12k and is still nothing fantastic. Sure, you can fix a headgasket pretty cheap, but if you damage the head itself there is bigger dollars, and the car isn't under warranty. Are you also telling me that insuring a BA XT is harder than insureing a turbo EF?

Now, I know what you are trying to say and I do agree that the elitism thingy is crap. Just disagree with a couple of the comments there.

[philstoj]

Elitist because they choose not to drive an E-series?

[BOOSTDEF]

Originally Posted by big_waity

Are we thinking about the same E-Series cars?

I know mine owes me a bit over 12k and is still nothing fantastic. Sure, you can fix a headgasket pretty cheap, but if you damage the head itself there is bigger dollars, and the car isn't under warranty. Are you also telling me that insuring a BA XT is harder than insureing a turbo EF?

Now, I know what you are trying to say and I do agree that the elitism thingy is crap. Just disagree with a couple of the comments there.

Seriously man...
Have a look at the parts, and modifications we have available to our e-series for so cheap. A second hand head in good condition can be had for $200 around the grounds, and 3 spanners and a socket set will change that. That is how i feel about cars, if i can work them like that, and get the most for my $ then im very happy, and maybe a lot more happier than someone owning boring old stock car off the showroom floor which are everywhere(each to there own though).

You can have E series cars for very cheap, and have a lot more value for $ than these new cars which lose a large % rolling off the showroom floor.

I dont know how much youve spent, we have all spent a different amount and got a different result. Thats what makes the e-series forum a better read than many of the other forums on this site. We compare, learn and do the things we wouldnt be able to do to newer cars due to warranty, service requirements and so on.

Look at justcars mate, they give damn good deals for modded cars.

[DOC]

Originally Posted by BOOSTDEF

If it takes someone to own a certain car(or pay a certain amount) to feel important, really says a lot.

Is there another side to the arguement ? BOOSTDEF this in is general to your post not personal but more an example.

There are a lot of people who have bought the BA / BF not to feel important, they have over the years steadily improved thier cars.

But in no way do they or have they done it to feel important or be elitist, having had many cars in my time time it is just as cheap to own a brand new car, that gives no / less maintainance costs as compared to continually repairing one ( not saying it is the case with all older cars ), then selling it at the 2 - 3 year interval with minimal loss on value and updating again.

In addition to this i am able to write of / offset any out of pocket $ at tax time making it very cost effective to do this.

Looking at things from another angle i have experienced where people have without reason labeled people with newer cars as elitist without even knowing the facts or just because they own a newer car, but does this stem from the person doing the labeling being envious of the said person ?

and thus the whole elitist thing is a perception created by those who label everyone with a newer car in this class ?

In addition to this this elitist thing does not belong only to e series, it is across the board every make every model as indicated above in the first post.

However it is real or percieved to be real here on the forums with strong undertones ( if not up front ) and once again it's from my view not caused by the people with later model cars but perceptions from the people claiming the elitist tags, and i think if given a chance you would find any thoughts of people being elitist are mostly untrue.

For the record i removed my car and specks a long time ago from the usual forum sig ( my car / my mods etc ) due to this very real sense of elitism as i felt listing the car attracted this very point that in same way it was elitism, while my personal views are that no matter what car a person drives, it has little to do with what type of person they are.

Pete

[gozza]

all people need to rememeber is that everyone starts off equal
whats makes people different is how they are as a person
not there car...not there house.... etc etc
if a person buys a big car to feel important let him...if it wouldn't be a car it would be somthing else

[megsy]

come on guys we as forum members have always had "it" above the holden crew because of our love for "the blue oval" everyone loves their different types of cars under the umbrella of "ford" and to start having a go at another blue oval lover is like killing your own men at war and it isnt helping in the long run.

we each have our own series we own, and appreciate, and this could be due to a number of reasons, finance being one of them. to have a go at someone because they own an X, E, A or B series car is ridiculous. and if you feel the need to you should seriously look at yourself in the mirror and ask the question "should i own a holden and be at LS1.com?" that is the sort of behavour i would expect from them, not civil ford supporters.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by gozza

all people need to rememeber is that everyone starts off equal
whats makes people different is how they are as a person
not there car...not there house.... etc etc
if a person buys a big car to feel important let him...if it wouldn't be a car it would be somthing else

Yes I agree, a material possession means little in life weather it be a car or a big T.V etc:, its more important to have good family and some top friends, and try to be a person of good character.

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by Pilch

And Dave, everyone knows a clevosawus has more potential then a little old weezer :P

OK let's pick on Bosses (the new ones) instead :P

[Poetic Justice]

Really, those who buy cars for status are absolute ****ers and should be shot.

Those who buy cars because they are extremely interested and passionate ones get my hat tipped to them.

And if I pull up to a VR commodore 6 that to me looks like an absolute "dunger", and the owner is happy with it, then who am I to question their tastes, or desires. And if the car ИИИИs on me I'm going to cut sick and go do mods, OKAY?

[XA-Coupe]

There are numerous good points raised in this thread.
Elitism is only a problem if you let it be. The 'tards that think that way aren't worth the neurones required to worry about it. Then again, if someone has issues with people because they own a newer car ( not necessarily better ) thenthe issue lies elsewhere.
From a personal point of view, I have my BA because I can afford it. I believe it's a wonderful car but hardly the be all. Despite the quality issues they suffered as a new car, I believe the EA is a beautiful car and a really tidy example will still catch my eye.
Capping it off, too many people worry about stuff that's just irrelevant .

[delta]

Elitist, anti-elitist, whateva. It seems that no matter what we believe its human nature to want to be better than the next person. What your definition of "better" is, is a personal thing, hence the elitism or from some points of view anti-elitism and even middle of the road (ie I'm better coz I don't get into that crap). This is what makes us so successful as a species. Were all different, but fundamentally we try to be better than EVERYONE around us - even if we think we don't. I wouldn't have it any other way. Funnily enough by making the statement in your head "that idiot is elitist" your partaking in being elitist yourself, ie, placing judgement, and thinking your better - human nature people, human nature - embrace it for what it is.

Delta

[chich]

The problem of elitism can be addressed quite easily... no matter how good you are, there will always be someone better. At the end of the day we all bleed red and as responsible adults (young and old) our collective aim should be not only to become better people but to also foster the growth and set an example for tomorrows generation - our children. Anyone who honestly believes they are better than someone else because they drive the latest car, have the latest TV, live in the newest house or whatever other bullsh*t you can think of is seriously kinding themselves - there will always be someone better than you

[Bucknaked]

Its an interesting subject. Hey don't stress too much guys. I used to own an E-Series. 2 of them in fact. After all the hassle and the constant breakdowns and costs involved in keeping them running, as soon as they were worth $3.50 at the wreckers, I just cut my losses and upgraded to an AU. So far the AU has been problem free and far more enjoyable to drive. Its not an E-Lite car, but it serves me well.

[Poetic Justice]

I'm not an elitist, I HATE EVERYONE!

Har har.

[Poetic Justice]

Bucknaked we all have had lemons from time. Just because someone gets a lemon, doesn't mean they all are, and I'm not trying to say you're saying that, but before anyone makes comments like that.

I had problems with my AU, power steering needed replacing, the premium sound in dash stacker broke and collected 6 of my cd's (and let me tell you that wasn't a cheapy to fix). The guards needed to be rolled after the panel actually split in two because of the factory fitted 18" wheels that came from Ford.

Exhaust leaks, loss of power, failing electronics. But geez I loved that AU. Was the best example and styled AU bar the T3 that I have seen to this day.

All cars are pretty like these days, we all have the negatives, but we sure have the positives too.

[Scott]

Bucknaked - There's no need to patronise these poor little E Series owners. Elitism should not be bantered around in an open thread such as this, it should only be discussed by FPV owners in the comfort of our exclusive FPV Owners Resort, under a palm tree with nice young lady Commodore drivers fanning us as we think up new ways to make every E Series owner feel less than he or she may be.

I think this thread is a little to literal.

[Poetic Justice]

For those owners of 50+k cars, who (in scenario form) used to drive cars like an XB falcon when they were younger, I hope you weren't copping ИИИИ from those driving EB GT's and like, because everyone has been in the "lesser priced" vehicle stage.

Unless you're a little rich kid, your first car wasn't the top of the line car at the time.


We all start somewhere.