Torque.... Turbo Terry Vs Turbo Diesel

[jimmyxr6t04]

Ok guys, here's my argument. I haven't been too fussed with my mates giving me lip or caring about towing capacity of a turbo terry. However, they seem 100% sure that a 4.2L turbo diesel is way better for towing... personally i don't give a rats about towing, i won't be towing anything regardless! But i'm 150% sure that a TT will pull a 1.5 tonne trailer/load up a hill or over a course quicker then a 4.2L turbo diesel patrol.... A TT will do it easier, and quicker... not worrying about fuel economy.

I agree that diesel cars will be more fuel efficient in doing the same work... This doesn't automatically mean they're better for towing though...

However, the argument continues... They also suggest that a diesel will tow better and get the 'object' off the line easier... Again i disagree, 480Nm is still 480Nm, and it peaks very early in the TT, not to mention a diesel car will usually have different gearing (1st/2nd gear revs out quickly), making it feel like it does it easier.

My argument is this: If a TT has 480Nm, and 245kw, and a patrol has 175kw and 480Nm (made up figures), then the TT is surely going to tow just as well, plus do it faster... Fuel economy is not an issue here...

Am i missing something here or what???? I understand that a turbo diesel will be a torque monster, but it'll usually lack KW (top end power), on the same token a turbo terry will be a torque monster but still have the KW (top end) to keep it going (rev harder and keep accelerating).

So, at the end of the day, towing a 1.5 tonne trailer, which is better? Remember fuel economy is not an issue... Surely a TT is the winner?

It's horses for courses, but at the end of the day a TT will tow as much if not more, and still accelerate a ***** load quicker, is this not correct?? Fuel economy will be better in the diesel, but this is not being considered as a measure of success...

[LUXO_8]

because when your towing, you want to accelerate like a race car...yeh thats desireable

the diesel will give you most of its power and torque from about 1500rpm
the turbo 6 will be around 3000 or so.....

without a doubt i would go for the diesel for pulling stuff

[Kryton]

Ill put my money on the Turbo Diesel any day of the week.

[uranium_death]

Agreed.
Diesel is better for pulling. Great torque. That's why my mate ONLY wanted a Turbo Diesel Manual for his Pajero - because unlike 90% of people, he takes his car off road. Si much in fact that he's damaged his exhaust and something else (that will cost 7k to repair). The new 4WDs are not built as well as the older ones (due to the market), but that's irrelevant.

He wanted a diesel because he wants the grunt to get up a hill. He doesn't need to do it in record time.

[MexicanBatman]

I'd put a tenner on a 6 auto turbo Terri towing 1500kg being able to out accelerate a patrol towing nothing

why would you need acceleration someone asks

overtaking

racing rice boys in civics

I don't like diesels tiny powerband

all torque no go

if a 6a t Terri did 60 flat out in 1st and 90 in 2nd you see a massive difference towing stuff what's the patrols gearing like flatout maybe 40km in 1 and 80 in 2nd

the thay say my golf tdi has so much torque. As will any 2.0l 4 with 16psi boost. I've done many mm in an 08 2.0tdi dsg golf and I hate the little truck

I used to run heaps of people towing a 6x4 with 3 bikes in the back and gear and stuff

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by LUXO_8

because when your towing, you want to accelerate like a race car...yeh thats desireable

the diesel will give you most of its power and torque from about 1500rpm

And will be all over by 2000rpm.
Fall out of boost in diesel and it gets real slow.

But its the Tortoise and the Hare.
The turbo petrol will get up the hill quicker, but will probably have overheated by the top. The diesel will just get up there slow and steady...

[mik]

Originally Posted by jimmyxr6t04

Ok guys, here's my argument. I haven't been too fussed with my mates giving me lip or caring about towing capacity of a turbo terry. However, they seem 100% sure that a 4.2L turbo diesel is way better for towing... personally i don't give a rats about towing, i won't be towing anything regardless! But i'm 150% sure that a TT will pull a 1.5 tonne trailer/load up a hill or over a course quicker then a 4.2L turbo diesel patrol.... A TT will do it easier, and quicker... not worrying about fuel economy.

I agree that diesel cars will be more fuel efficient in doing the same work... This doesn't automatically mean they're better for towing though...

However, the argument continues... They also suggest that a diesel will tow better and get the 'object' off the line easier... Again i disagree, 480Nm is still 480Nm, and it peaks very early in the TT, not to mention a diesel car will usually have different gearing (1st/2nd gear revs out quickly), making it feel like it does it easier.

My argument is this: If a TT has 480Nm, and 245kw, and a patrol has 175kw and 480Nm (made up figures), then the TT is surely going to tow just as well, plus do it faster... Fuel economy is not an issue here...

Am i missing something here or what???? I understand that a turbo diesel will be a torque monster, but it'll usually lack KW (top end power), on the same token a turbo terry will be a torque monster but still have the KW (top end) to keep it going (rev harder and keep accelerating).

So, at the end of the day, towing a 1.5 tonne trailer, which is better? Remember fuel economy is not an issue... Surely a TT is the winner?

It's horses for courses, but at the end of the day a TT will tow as much if not more, and still accelerate a ***** load quicker, is this not correct?? Fuel economy will be better in the diesel, but this is not being considered as a measure of success...

the terri has heaps of torque, myself i would`nt trade petrol engine characteristics for a small diesel, unless i was towing all day every day, even then i would worry about durability with some of these small diesels, and the cost to repair them.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by jimmyxr6t04

Ok guys, here's my argument. I haven't been too fussed with my mates giving me lip or caring about towing capacity of a turbo terry. However, they seem 100% sure that a 4.2L turbo diesel is way better for towing... personally i don't give a rats about towing, i won't be towing anything regardless! But i'm 150% sure that a TT will pull a 1.5 tonne trailer/load up a hill or over a course quicker then a 4.2L turbo diesel patrol.... A TT will do it easier, and quicker... not worrying about fuel economy.

I agree that diesel cars will be more fuel efficient in doing the same work... This doesn't automatically mean they're better for towing though...

However, the argument continues... They also suggest that a diesel will tow better and get the 'object' off the line easier... Again i disagree, 480Nm is still 480Nm, and it peaks very early in the TT, not to mention a diesel car will usually have different gearing (1st/2nd gear revs out quickly), making it feel like it does it easier.

My argument is this: If a TT has 480Nm, and 245kw, and a patrol has 175kw and 480Nm (made up figures), then the TT is surely going to tow just as well, plus do it faster... Fuel economy is not an issue here...

Am i missing something here or what???? I understand that a turbo diesel will be a torque monster, but it'll usually lack KW (top end power), on the same token a turbo terry will be a torque monster but still have the KW (top end) to keep it going (rev harder and keep accelerating).

So, at the end of the day, towing a 1.5 tonne trailer, which is better? Remember fuel economy is not an issue... Surely a TT is the winner?

It's horses for courses, but at the end of the day a TT will tow as much if not more, and still accelerate a ***** load quicker, is this not correct?? Fuel economy will be better in the diesel, but this is not being considered as a measure of success...

Forgetting fuel economy, which you have. You are spot on!

A Turbo Terri will do 0-100kmh in mid 7s. A Turbo Diesel Patrol will do 0-100kmh in what 12s?

A Turbo Terri has 450Nm+ from 2000rpm to 5000rpm and a 6spd ZF.

[Maggot]

I'd have some money on even a standard 4L smashing the diesel in acceleration.. whatever it is towing.. letalone a turbo petrol motor.

It would just used five times as much fuel doing so.

Yes.. diesels have a great amount of torque from say.. 2100 to 2300 rpm.. but then nothing after that. (or before it).

[burnz]

4.2L diesel NA will give a t/terry a hard time when towing.

4.2 turbo diesel should be around 550+ Nm @1500rpm

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by davway

Ill put my money on the Turbo Diesel any day of the week.

Obviously you've not driven a 4.2L turbo diesel patrol? Towing anything over a ton with a patrol is a joke. Absolute slug. Brother and father in law have spent thousands on upgrades just to make them bearable. Turbo xr/Terri will slaughter it. Only benefit of the pootrol is a full chassis and lots of weight to sit solid on the road. My na fg xr6 ute drags 2 tonnes as easy as you like. Mates xr6t ute drags the same load with half the effort and uses less fuel than mine. Pootrol is in 4th gear half the time and fighting to hold 100kmh constant with 2 tonnes.

[Maggot]

Originally Posted by burnz

4.2L diesel NA will give a t/terry a hard time when towing.

4.2 turbo diesel should be around 550+ Nm @1500rpm

^^

Yep.. they probably should be.. but try driving one.

I have been driving a patrol EVERY day for a few months.. towing.. travelling.. slowly!!!.

I think the best patrols are the ones with the brunswick 6.5L chev diesel.. and maybe the new french engine will be OK.. but the rest of the diesel versions suck.

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by burnz

4.2L diesel NA will give a t/terry a hard time when towing.

4.2 turbo diesel should be around 550+ Nm @1500rpm

Where do I get one of these rocket ships? A 4.2 td patrol is good for 114kw at about 3600 rpm and 330nm at 2000 rpm. Couldn't pull the skin off ya mums custard. An NA diesel will have you wanting to get back on public transport. A turbo diesel 200 series, range rover sport, lc79 cruiser, f250 or a toureg are about the only 4wds that will out pull a turbo Terri If fuel is not a consideration.

[mik]

speaking of slak diesels, my mate i used to go scrub bashing with had an Nissan sd33(non turbo) 3.3l diesel in an MQ patrol............never!!!....... have i seen such a slug of a motor lol, about its only redeeming feature was its engine brakeing in low gear.

[snappy]

My money's on the terri the i6t would get to the top of the hill faster
Both turbo's will be in by 2000rpm but the diesel would need changing gears at 3000 rpm the i6t will pull 480nm all the way to the limiter.

You boys seem to forget the were trialling the i6 for aiport tugs

[Brazen]

Turbo diesels in most 4wds are very overrated, but they get good fuel economy. I had a V8 turbo diesel Landcruiser over 2700km and it was honestly nothing special. There is no way whatsoever it would outperform a turbo Territory in towing a heavy load, but it would use less fuel.

In something as heavy as a Landcruiser I would pick the diesel, but I wont expect performance better than say a Camry.

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by mik

speaking of slak diesels, my mate i used to go scrub bashing with had an Nissan sd33(non turbo) 3.3l diesel in an MQ patrol............never!!!....... have i seen such a slug of a motor lol, about its only redeeming feature was its engine brakeing in low gear.

Haha, mum had a LWB one of those back when I was a young un.... SD33 N/A Diesel, 4spd Manual gearbox.... Slow as a wet week, it would wheel spin its 33" all terrains in the wet tho!

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by jimmyxr6t04

My argument is this: If a TT has 480Nm, and 245kw, and a patrol has 175kw and 480Nm (made up figures)

The problem with your guess is the only Patrol engine with numbers close to that is the 4.8 litre petrol. 118kW & 330Nm from a 4.2 litre TD is likely to result in it being well and truly smoked by the Terry. I reckon the N/A Ford might give it a run for it's money too.
On takeoff the TD would get the jump, but would run out of puff fast and upshift quickly, breaking momentum and losing boost. The Turbo petrol would quickly enter the torque curve and would then start to move quickly, then with the wider powerband as it revs out and goes up a gear, would drop right back into the sweet spot and keep going.

A few drivers where I used to work would replace their stuffed diesels on 3-5 tonne trucks with a small block Chev on gas. More go, probably cost as much as the rebuilt diesel motor and fuel costs were probably similar on gas

[sgt_doofey]

Originally Posted by Maggot

Yes.. diesels have a great amount of torque from say.. 2100 to 2300 rpm.. but then nothing after that. (or before it).

I think you'll find it's a lot more than that. My 2.0L HDi Peugeot 307 has full torque (320Nm) from about 1750rpm through to about 4000rpm. They have a very flat torque curve throughout nearly the whole rev range. It's the same with the turbo petrol cars. Flat torque curve for a lot of the rpm range.

[DJR-351]

It’s a pointless comparison, ones a purpose built 4WD and the others at best a AWD soft-roader, both aimed at a different customer. While a Turbo Territory may beat a Turbo Patrol in the Territorys designed environment, my money will be on the Patrol on a trip to Cape York and back....

[jimmyxr6t04]

Just to clarify, i wouldn't buy a TT as a dedicated tow car... If i needed to tow something i would have bought a turbo diesel for the fuel economy.

The question just arrises because my mates tow boats. I really don't know how much power the turbo diesel has, it's never been put on a dyno.

I 100% understand that a turbo diesel is awesome for towing, but i think the TT would be equal to the task if not better. The only downside to the TT is the fuel consumption, which isn't a factor in this particular argument.

Initially my mate said a turbo diesel would tow a tonne of sand up a hill quicker then a TT, when i explained the power/torque of the TT he slightly retracted his comments, but then said the turbo diesel is still better for towing.

I'm trying to explain that a TT should be equal too, if not better due to the wide torque band and peak horsepower. I semi-agree that a turbo diesel would probably pull off the line quicker (initially) until they had to change to 2nd gear at about 4000rpm...

Remember a TT makes peak torque from 2000rpm so surely a TT will pull stuff up a hill with just as much ease as a turbo diesel?

All i'm trying to do is prove that a TT is as good at towing, if not better... Again, putting fuel economy aside... Overtaking would easier, acceleration would be better.

Edit - I'd almost go as far to say that a TT with a tonne of sand would still go close to beating a turbo diesel up a hill with no sand.

[jimmyxr6t04]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

It’s a pointless comparison, ones a purpose built 4WD and the others at best a AWD soft-roader, both aimed at a different customer. While a Turbo Territory may beat a Turbo Patrol in the Territorys designed environment, my money will be on the Patrol on a trip to Cape York and back....

True, obviously the Terry isn't for off road. But the comparison is fair, we're talking for on road towing. If i was required to tow a tonne of something for whatever reason, i know i could do it, and i'm sure the TT would make light work of it (perhaps hurt my pocket thought)

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by jimmyxr6t04

True, obviously the Terry isn't for off road. But the comparison is fair, we're talking for on road towing. If i was required to tow a tonne of something for whatever reason, i know i could do it, and i'm sure the TT would make light work of it (perhaps hurt my pocket thought)

I'm sure it would, after all it's rated up to 2300kg#

Ford Aus Website...
# 2,300kg is the maximum towing capacity using a Genuine Ford heavy duty tow pack with load levelling kit. For RWD models, an auxiliary transmission oil cooler must be fitted. To comply with these limits, occupants and/or luggage may need to be restricted. For greater passenger and luggage requirements, please consult your authorised Ford Dealer for details and/or refer to the Territory owner manual under 'Towing Capacities' for further guidance. Subject to State and Territory regulations.

...but would you use the results to choose between the two...???

[Mr Hardware]

economy aside, the TT without a shadow of a doubt.

[jimmyxr6t04]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

I'm sure it would, after all it's rated up to 2300kg#

Ford Aus Website...
# 2,300kg is the maximum towing capacity using a Genuine Ford heavy duty tow pack with load levelling kit. For RWD models, an auxiliary transmission oil cooler must be fitted. To comply with these limits, occupants and/or luggage may need to be restricted. For greater passenger and luggage requirements, please consult your authorised Ford Dealer for details and/or refer to the Territory owner manual under 'Towing Capacities' for further guidance. Subject to State and Territory regulations.

...but would you use the results to choose between the two...???

Of course not! Again, if i had to tow something regularly i'd opt for a turbo diesel.

All i'm trying to get through to my mates is that whilst it's not a 4X4 or a car people would buy to tow on a regular basis a TT is still as good as a turbo diesel for towing...

For some reason they seem to think the turbo diesel has more torque or uses torque differently, making it better.... I'm saying that torque is still torque, and when you get max torque at 2000rpm with a good whack of horsepower, it should tow as good if not better then a turbo diesel...

[ebxr8240]

In ten years time I know what vehicle will be still going strong...
Modern diesels are NOTHING like the old clunkers..
Picking the Nissan with it's 4 cylinder [AU spec] doesn't assist the diesel either..
You MUST consider fuel consumption, braking, handling and durability when towing..
Boats are relatively easy to tow if your not in a hurry...
Why would you be in a hurry towing 3+ ton ??

[DJR-351]

Ok, well i would suggest you and your mates get the two vehicals in question, two rated trailers, 2000kg of sand each and a hill.....

Also maybe a side bet of a grand or two..... ;)

[jimmyxr6t04]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Ok, well i would suggest you and your mates get the two vehicals in question, two rated trailers, 2000kg of sand each and a hill.....

Also maybe a side bet of a grand or two..... ;)

lol... we did joke about it, we're both responsible adults, so i don't think a race up a hill with trailers is an option! The TT is modified now, so it wouldn't work even if we wanted too!

[jpd80]

Ive seen 4.0 NA Terrys towing 23' Caravans that weigh a lot more than 1500 Kg....

[Falc'man]

TT FTW.

Originally Posted by jpd80

Ive seen 4.0 NA Terrys towing 23' Caravans that weigh a lot more than 1500 Kg....

Yeah, but... but... but...