Australia - China - Poltics

[mmhmm]

Good Evening,

We have all heard on the news, of whats becoming of China and it's infiltration into Australian assets , culture and society. My questions is to this forum and its reputable members deem it from any background / origin / or racial / spiritual sense, is what makes these politicians make our decisions?

Democracy as it was put to me and many others is when the people have decided who to elect and they voice the peoples opinion. How is it , we have Daniel Andrews, a member of parliament, co ordinating a deal with the chinese in secrecy. My research of course is based on the news facts from Sky news and the Allan Jones show. I take great pride in hearing their opinions and believe its fact.

How can we as a country allow, tariffs been made on Australian products, such as barley , meat and have a foreign entity dictate to us on what they require us to preach or do. We have thousands of international students that pay lump sum payments to international chinese students. Opinion matters that there is a certan case of a " spy element" co ordinated within these universities. This states that we as the people have let this happen for many years knowing that the education, monies and information leaking to another foreign government.

My question is. We as normal, people that work. Having families, that only want a house to prosper. How do we find a voice to go against this. What is our legal stand point or the normal process of ensuring that our elected members of communities / parliament are from wthin our voices. If the elected premiers or community representatives are doing bad, how do we get rid of them.

This may trample of some peoples personal views, and i feel the moderators may take action, But if you do, just remember you are ceasing freedom of information. I really do take a dis liking to our current governments potraying the country as a puppet to america or a whore to Chinas wealth. I would like some information. Who do we write to? What are opinions of others?

What's the voice of you fellas.

All opinions , considerations and statements are of course viable and warranted.

if you have an opinion on the agenda, of Politicians, China, Australia, Bilitaral Trade agreements, international students or " of the like" please voice your opinions.

Lets have an open conversation

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by mmhmm

Good Evening,
My research of course is based on the news facts from Sky news and the Allan Jones show. I take great pride in hearing their opinions and believe its fact.

there is the first BIG issue

Ask ScoMo where he borrowed the $130billion from

[Franco Cozzo]

[Franco Cozzo]

Some outside perspectives on what's going on between Australia and China.

These also predate our current decline in relationship too.

The first one covers why we saw Melbourne University flout the travel ban from China by getting students from China to another nation then into Australia funding flights and hotel stays.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rus-travel-ban

The CCP also has significant political influence amongst it's Chinese students at our universities:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...eview/11455588

Also using their social media platform WeChat to be critical of our government to Chinese communities locally

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-...ounts/11092238

Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket

Do you value the economy or our sovereignty? Might be worth diversifying our economy and look for new markets for our exports but I feel our population and our government aren't taking their interference in our country serious enough - muh franking credits.

[buggerlugs]

Originally Posted by mmhmm

Good Evening,

We have all heard on the news, of whats becoming of China and it's infiltration into Australian assets , culture and society. My questions is to this forum and its reputable members deem it from any background / origin / or racial / spiritual sense, is what makes these politicians make our decisions?

Democracy as it was put to me and many others is when the people have decided who to elect and they voice the peoples opinion. How is it , we have Daniel Andrews, a member of parliament, co ordinating a deal with the chinese in secrecy. My research of course is based on the news facts from Sky news and the Allan Jones show. I take great pride in hearing their opinions and believe its fact.

How can we as a country allow, tariffs been made on Australian products, such as barley , meat and have a foreign entity dictate to us on what they require us to preach or do. We have thousands of international students that pay lump sum payments to international chinese students. Opinion matters that there is a certan case of a " spy element" co ordinated within these universities. This states that we as the people have let this happen for many years knowing that the education, monies and information leaking to another foreign government.

My question is. We as normal, people that work. Having families, that only want a house to prosper. How do we find a voice to go against this. What is our legal stand point or the normal process of ensuring that our elected members of communities / parliament are from wthin our voices. If the elected premiers or community representatives are doing bad, how do we get rid of them.

This may trample of some peoples personal views, and i feel the moderators may take action, But if you do, just remember you are ceasing freedom of information. I really do take a dis liking to our current governments potraying the country as a puppet to america or a whore to Chinas wealth. I would like some information. Who do we write to? What are opinions of others?

What's the voice of you fellas.

All opinions , considerations and statements are of course viable and warranted.

if you have an opinion on the agenda, of Politicians, China, Australia, Bilitaral Trade agreements, international students or " of the like" please voice your opinions.

Lets have an open conversation

You watch Sky News and believe everything coming out of Alan Jones mouth

Sky News may as well be run by The Liberal Party....
Same with the ABC and The Labour Party....
Find another news source...............

[Polyal]

I dont think you have to be a genius to work out that any country should always diversify were practical. There comes a time though when you need to engage with who has the income/finances and you can grow your economy and maintain "sovereignty". The growth rate and future implications can all vary wildly. Where are all the wealthy Australian business owners investing in Australia? Slim pickings.

But dont think for a minute that other countries dont run similar economic and political strategies.

Before everyone gets on their high horse too, remember what actions you have done as an individual for years that may have taken sales/business away from locals before we act high and mighty.

The current situation isnt helped by media and the public fanning the fire, but I have no issue with some truths being aired if there is good reason. But poo-stirring for the sake of a personal agenda isnt going to assist anyway.

And if you were a farmer what would you do after years of drought and losses? If someone offered you good coin to cut and run what would you do?

For those so anti China, I am then assuming pro America, do we want to start going down the path of international relations and invasions? Ol' Trump will protect his interests well before worrying about our farmers.

People need to stop, think and walk-a-mile before shooting off one sided comments. If we were to engage more internally/locally what will you give up in order to have that "freedom"?

[nstg8a]

The actions of the past can’t be changed.

We as consumers helped cause this issue.
We as apathetic voters helped cause this issue.

All we can do now is be smarter moving forward.

Do we really need to save $10 on that tool?
Is that part really worth the big saving?
When it comes to vote, do we vote for the same party we always have? Or do we do proper research?

The reliance on Chinese money is ingrained into modern society, and it’s a hard thing to replace.
But it must be replaced.

Politicians should and must be held to account however consecutive govts (both state and fed) have significantly watered down any oversight ability.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

You watch Sky News and believe everything coming out of Alan Jones mouth

Sky News may as well be run by The Liberal Party....
Same with the ABC and The Labour Party....
Find another news source...............

LABOR party

Labour is the British communists

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by mmhmm

We have all heard on the news, of whats becoming of China and it's infiltration into Australian assets , culture and society.

In a nutshell... ''infiltration rather than invasion''

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

In a nutshell... ''infiltration rather than invasion''

Or is it integration ?

Much like the British and American money in the past.



.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Or is it integration ?

Much like the British and American money in the past.



.

Rather live under British and American influence rather than the CCP's though.

[Tonz]

regarding farm/station purchases..... bloody hard position but if I was an owner of any such property and family did not want to follow my steps then I opt to sell...now although against overseas investment If I was advertising my land at $100 acre and someone offers $150 am I going to say no?

therein lies the hard question.

Unfortunately this is not a modern day problem, I clearly remember talking with my dad 15 years ago about Chinese interest in Aus & NZ 'will not end well for our countries" were his words.

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Rather live under British and American influence rather than the CCP's though.

If we're being screwed does it really matter who's doing it? I wonder how the survivors of the Japanese POW camps felt when the japanese started investing heavily in Australia in the 60's

[Cav]

I should declare that I am of Chinese descent, but I was also Tony Abbott's number one supporter


Your Aussie friends are baffled, Britain: Why escape from Brussels - only to kowtow to Beijing, asks former prime minister of Australia TONY ABBOTT

By Tony Abbott For The Mail On Sunday22:12 23 May 2020, updated 01:49 24 May 2020

Along with killing tens of thousands of people in countries such as Britain, and inflicting years of subsequent economic pain, the corona crisis should drive lasting change in our perceptions of*China. It’s not that this virus has changed the nature of the Chinese regime; but it has made its repressive, secretive and self-aggrandising side glaringly obvious.

Take Australia’s perfectly reasonable request for a full and impartial international inquiry into the causes and handling of the outbreak.

China’s first response was to slap a prohibitive 80 per cent tariff on my country’s billion-dollar-a-year barley trade, even though the main sufferer would be China’s Tsingtao Brewery that relied on this clean Australian product.
Then, once the World Health Assembly had agreed to it, China’s ‘wolf-warrior’ ambassador in Canberra said that our success in securing a global investigation was ‘nothing but a joke’.

Of course, none of us should be anti-China. As prime minister, I routinely praised China’s stupendous achievement of lifting half a billion people from the Third World to the middle class in scarcely a generation.
This is probably the largest and fastest increase in material wellbeing in all history.

My government successfully concluded a trade deal with China, its first with a G20 country, despite our flying military aircraft through its self-declared air defence identification zone over disputed islands and routinely affirming our strategic partnership with the United States.

And there is a world of difference between the Chinese people who in places such as Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and elsewhere have shown a remarkable talent for building civil societies; and the current Chinese government which has reversed the modest liberalisation that seemed to be taking place in the three decades after Deng Xiaoping.

Even five years ago, we still all hoped that China and the West were on converging paths towards more economic and political freedom. Regrettably, since then, President Xi Jinping has turned himself into a new emperor; and China has militarised its nearby seas, interned up to a million Uighurs, bullied its neighbours, and created a ‘brave new world’ of high-tech-enabled, state-enforced conformism.

Marxism-Leninism seems to have reinforced China’s traditional sense of itself as the world’s ‘Middle Kingdom’, with all other states expected to ‘tremble and obey’.

Clearly, the world is entering a new and dangerous era of strategic competition between China and the US-led West. Unlike the Cold War, though, with a Soviet Union that had a first-rate military but a third-rate economy; this new ‘cold peace’ with China involves a first-rate economy that’s rapidly becoming a first-rate military power.

And we can’t assume that it will never be worse than a cold peace. Any attempt by China to reclaim Taiwan by force would, at a minimum, unleash in the Indo-Pacific the greatest arms race the world has seen.

It’s noteworthy that during the Cold War, there were virtually no trade, investment or academic exchanges between the West and the Soviet Bloc. Since then, there has been a flood of Chinese exports and, latterly, Chinese students and Chinese investment into the West.

As a recent report by the Henry Jackson Society has highlighted, the US, the UK and Australia have heavily integrated China into domestic supply chains. Outsourcing much of our manufacturing to China didn’t seem to matter so much in the era of strategic convergence; but now it’s an altogether more serious issue than simply displaced local workers and lost jobs.

All Western countries, but especially the key Western allies, need a new plan for their relations with China that doesn’t put short-term economic gain above our long-term national interests – because if we can too readily be bought, we can too readily be beaten without a fight. It should be based on a clear-eyed understanding that the Chinese Communist Party – and, hence, the Chinese government that it totally controls – does everything with strategic intent.

There are, of course, innumerable Chinese who act out of simple human decency, like the heroic whistle-blowing doctors of Wuhan that the government initially had arrested. But as far as the Chinese government is concerned, ultimately, there are no private citizens and no private businesses. All are to be mobilised in the interests of the Communist Party.

For us, trade is about mutual economic self-interest. But for China, it’s also a way to gain political leverage over its trade partners. For Australia, this need not be a huge problem as the bulk of our exports are commodities. If China refused to take them, others would.

This most emphatically does not mean that we should reduce our trade with China, at least in finished products. It does mean, though, that we have to be prepared for it to be turned on or off like a tap depending upon whether the Chinese regime wants to be ingratiating or intimidating.

For us, Chinese students are a way to make the most of our outstanding universities. If people from other countries are left with a sense of gratitude and appreciation for Australia, that’s a bonus. But for China, sending students to the West is a means to leapfrog its way to technological superiority. This does not mean refusing to take Chinese students. It should mean, though, that our universities treat income from this source more as a bonus than something to be taken for granted.

The best way to deal with all this, without singling China out; and, in so doing, giving it another excuse for antagonism, might be to introduce a new principle of reciprocity into our dealings with other countries.

You may invest in our strategic infrastructure only under the same circumstances in which we may invest in yours. Your students may study in our universities only under the same circumstances and in the same disciplines where ours may study in yours. In general, we should only be prepared to be dependent on China in circumstances where they would just as readily be prepared to be dependent on us.

In Australia, both sides of politics have excluded Huawei from participation in strategic telecommunications infrastructure on the grounds that Huawei has no choice but to take directions from the Chinese government. To us, it does seem strange that Britain, a ‘Five Eyes’ partner that’s just escaped interference from Brussels, should be so blasé about exposing itself to interference from Beijing.
For all the need to focus on the daunting strategic challenge that China now poses, it’s worth remembering that the people who know China best, its own citizens, have a remarkable predilection for sending their wealth offshore and for acquiring Western passports.

A few of them, perhaps, might see themselves as latter-day economic conquistadors. Most of them, I’m sure, are at least tacitly acknowledging the universal pull of the West’s commitment to freedom under the law. That is our abiding strength.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Tonz

regarding farm/station purchases..... bloody hard position but if I was an owner of any such property and family did not want to follow my steps then I opt to sell...now although against overseas investment If I was advertising my land at $100 acre and someone offers $150 am I going to say no?

therein lies the hard question.

Unfortunately this is not a modern day problem, I clearly remember talking with my dad 15 years ago about Chinese interest in Aus & NZ 'will not end well for our countries" were his words.

These two agencies should be involved in infrastructure and significant asset sales to foreign entities:

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/

https://firb.gov.au/

You might not say no to being offered top dollar by foreign interests on your farm but if it's not in the best interests in Australia then the government will have a say.

The same as how the ACCC will step in to stop company acquisitions to prevent monopolies.

[ad2013]

I hope we will now pay a lot more attention to fostering positive trade relations with India. At least they are a democracy.

[Franco Cozzo]

The reason this keeps happening is there's a lack of accountability for people making these decisions and it's a fault of our democracy that we work on three year election cycles so there's a lot of self interest and vote buying occuring that they make popular decisions for tomorrow that hurt us years later.

China is an expert at playing the long game, they've got one political party and you don't have a choice so they can plan over decades.

We've got three years then the new government can overturn anything the previous government has done - East West link being signed weeks out of an election in VIC then the new government cancelling it and paying 8 figures to not build infrastructure - wowzer!

Our politicians only need to make the set time until they get on the gravy train, then they end up working for some company afterwards they probably tweaked legislation for.

NSW State Premier gives up politics then ends up working for NAB? Hmm

The rights and sovereignty issues are lost on Australians because we've never had to spill blood for rights, freedoms and independence, there's been little human cost over our brief history where as every millimetre of the squiggly lines that make up the borders of Europe cost human life and they're not willing to concede an inch - good times create weak people and Australians get upset over having to pay tax on their 36 investment properties even though they're selling their own children down the river.

[superyob]

China is merely taking advantage of Australia's traitorous political class. Unfortunately, this class gets pay offs while Australia's culture and identity are constantly eroded; not by war but stealth.

There is a reason this 'elite' got rid of treason laws in Australia...

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

These two agencies should be involved in infrastructure and significant asset sales to foreign entities:

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/

https://firb.gov.au/

You might not say no to being offered top dollar by foreign interests on your farm but if it's not in the best interests in Australia then the government will have a say.

The same as how the ACCC will step in to stop company acquisitions to prevent monopolies.

Sure, but is govco going to pay you out for the difference?

[T3rminator]

If the media tells enough lies, enough of the time, it starts to become true.

Here are the facts on foreign ownership. Dig a bit deeper and see which country has majority shareholdings in our banks....clue, its not China.

https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/resour...s-in-australia

China gives us a massive trade surplus, puts money in our pockets, but they own very little. I lived in London between 2008 to 2013, during the heart of the GFC. You should all thank your lucky stars you didn't have to go through austerity. In part this is due to the massive trade surplus.

[T3rminator]

It also looks like the US, or maybe just Murdoch, is trying to incite civil unrest in Australia, particularly Victoria. The media is now going full on attack mode against Dan. Personally I think he is a rational thinker. The BRI is just a MOU with no legal bindings. There is no secrecy, the agreement is published on the vic government website. It allows both parties to explore opportunities with a shared interest. Victoria does not have to say yes to anything if the gain are not there, and I'm sure the federal gov can veto anything that is against national security interests. But the narrative coming out of the media (driven by US?) is that Australia is endangered of being invaded. Its ludicrous.

Look at NZ. They are slowly taking the Z out of ANZUS...... what are we left with?

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

It also looks like the US, or maybe just Murdoch, is trying to incite civil unrest in Australia, particularly Victoria. The media is now going full on attack mode against Dan. Personally I think he is a rational thinker. The BRI is just a MOU with no legal bindings. There is no secrecy, the agreement is published on the vic government website. It allows both parties to explore opportunities with a shared interest. Victoria does not have to say yes to anything if the gain are not there, and I'm sure the federal gov can veto anything that is against national security interests. But the narrative coming out of the media (driven by US?) is that Australia is endangered of being invaded. Its ludicrous.

Look at NZ. They are slowly taking the Z out of ANZUS...... what are we left with?

I tend to agree, and frighteningly many are gulping it up.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

If the media tells enough lies, enough of the time, it starts to become true.

Here are the facts on foreign ownership. Dig a bit deeper and see which country has majority shareholdings in our banks....clue, its not China.

https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/resour...s-in-australia

China gives us a massive trade surplus, puts money in our pockets, but they own very little. I lived in London between 2008 to 2013, during the heart of the GFC. You should all thank your lucky stars you didn't have to go through austerity. In part this is due to the massive trade surplus.

That shows that Hong Kong is responsible for one of the biggest increases in foreign investment in Australia.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mmhmm]

Originally Posted by Tonz

regarding farm/station purchases..... bloody hard position but if I was an owner of any such property and family did not want to follow my steps then I opt to sell...now although against overseas investment If I was advertising my land at $100 acre and someone offers $150 am I going to say no?

therein lies the hard question.

Unfortunately this is not a modern day problem, I clearly remember talking with my dad 15 years ago about Chinese interest in Aus & NZ 'will not end well for our countries" were his words.

Well, I would hope that it would be sold to the highest tenderer in Australia. Being the fact, the mark you would receive may not be worthwhile especially since your future generations are considered, regardless of sales. Farming in itself is a major and dare i say most vital industry in our country. I would not let foreign entities own it, i mean look what's happened.

We get grade B and C meat and our dairy, all the real Grade A stuff is sent back to China or some other place? I think governments should intervine if there is agriculture involved.

[mmhmm]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

If the media tells enough lies, enough of the time, it starts to become true.

Here are the facts on foreign ownership. Dig a bit deeper and see which country has majority shareholdings in our banks....clue, its not China.

https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/resour...s-in-australia

China gives us a massive trade surplus, puts money in our pockets, but they own very little. I lived in London between 2008 to 2013, during the heart of the GFC. You should all thank your lucky stars you didn't have to go through austerity. In part this is due to the massive trade surplus.

I did check the link on DFAT that you posted. Doesn't really state in which industries investment has been allocated. Meaning, that the UK may be invested in say technologies or medical industries.

Doesn't really show who's investing in our " Key " infrastructure. China we know owns ( leased 99 years ) the Port of Darwin, Land and Water right usage and distribution, Agriculture industries / entities and perhaps energy.

Is there a chart that shows which industries countries are investing in?

[CoupeKing]

When you're talking about Hong Kong remember that some Chinese companies are based there or were. I noticed that the protesters cleared the streets (Europe too) soon as the virus hit.


And someone mentioned the media? Well, roughly 90% of the mainstream media is owned by 6 companies.

Remember, this isn't anything new, nor unique to Australia - it's global. The four previous administrations in the States sold their own people out and almost killed the middle-class. Eight more years under the Witch and it would have been Game Over.

But there's a new Sheriff in town and they don't like it.

That JFK quote I mentioned was made well before China was ever thought of as a first-world country/powerhouse or whatever you care to label it as.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by mmhmm

I did check the link on DFAT that you posted. Doesn't really state in which industries investment has been allocated. Meaning, that the UK may be invested in say technologies or medical industries.

Doesn't really show who's investing in our " Key " infrastructure. China we know owns ( leased 99 years ) the Port of Darwin, Land and Water right usage and distribution, Agriculture industries / entities and perhaps energy.

Is there a chart that shows which industries countries are investing in?

I haven't got a full break down, but I did see one on the banking industry vs US shareholders released by Clinton Fernandez. Across the big 4, an average of 60% of shares are owned by US. I assume US includes individual shareholders as well as companies. Its no secret that banks influence how the country is run.

Here is the one that worries most Australians. Agri land ownership. China is 2nd, but only 2.3%.

https://www.beefcentral.com/news/for...armland-grows/

I don't have any stats on "key" infrastructures. But I find it funny how everyone is worried that China being a potential threat to our trade route, yet 30% of our trade is with .....? Yeh you could argue they could block the other 70% but they have historically shown no signs of doing such an act.

Hong Kong is an interesting subject. I asked my uncle living in HK what he thought about the whole China proposal. These are the points he made:
* He said most honkies accept that HK is part of China, but they are disappointed by the proposal, they thought they had another 25 years of the "2 system". They assume it is being sped up because of the increase in foreign interference into China's affairs. A lot of the Chinese, including honkies, believe the protests pre-pandemic was CIA inspired.
* He found it offensive that us westerners think the honkies can't think for themselves.
* Most of the protestors are NOT democracy protestors. They are either kids that feel neglected by the HK system (yes, the current "free" system) or they are separatists.
* The uni student in HK we saw asking US to liberate them, there is a photo of him in the US on stage with Nancy Pelosi. Make of it what you will. I have seen the photo.
* These so called protestors have been videoed stabbing politicians and setting residents on fire. Yes I have seen the videos unedited, they are horrifying. And all the west is reporting is police brutality firing tear gas etc. In any other part of the world there would be marshal law and lots of protestors would be shot dead.
* Yes it is true that journalists are being arrested. That is because the gov is fearful they will incite more violence, or that they will use the footages to release fake news.

Anyhow, I guess that is just one HK resident's view. I don't have a view either way because I don't know enough about the whole thing.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Sure, but is govco going to pay you out for the difference?

No - the Govco is going to say find another buyer, one that isn't trying to interfere in our politics.

[MercuryT]

As long as my dogs don't somehow end up there I don't know much else about China.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Tonz

regarding farm/station purchases..... bloody hard position but if I was an owner of any such property and family did not want to follow my steps then I opt to sell...now although against overseas investment If I was advertising my land at $100 acre and someone offers $150 am I going to say no?

The issue isnt the $150 per acre offer, its that in a lot of cases, the chinese buyer is the only one offering anything close to worthwhile. And that is a far bigger issue.

I still find it astounding that a product like fresh milk, cant be imported, yet farmers cant make money off it. Understand that, and you understand the plight of farmers of virtually any commodity.

We have foreign content laws re: the TV we watch, but not the food we eat. Combine that with our grocery duopoly, and you can see why farming which was once our backbone, is now unviable for anything but the mutlinationals. I'm still at a loss as to why its not considered anti-competitive for the shop that owns the shelf to also be able to stock it with its own brands (and increasingly foreign-made ones).