EB Timing Chain Guide REPAIR

beancounter1 · 30-05-2006, 07:46 PM

Has anyone successfully repaired a broken plastic timing chain guide ?

Like many other (backyard amateurs) , I have snapped the fragile plastic guide on the passenger side of the camshaft sprocket, while removing the head. I have a 60mm piece still attached to the head retaining bolt and the rest of the guide piece is quite visible with the head off.

It seems to me that a plastic repair has got to be a lot easier than pulling the whole front end off and risk more issues. I was thinking about going to Bunnings and getting some "Knead It" or similar, which could go all the way around the 2 pieces of the guide. Would this work ?

What are the consequences of leaving the top 60mm off the timing chain guide ? Chain Noise ? Movement ? Other engine damage ? The bottom section of the guide appears reasonable firm and seems to be "holding" the chain.

xr8svo · 30-05-2006, 07:51 PM

I really dont think it worth fixing cause there a good chance that it wil just break again. I didnt the same thing on my EF and you just have to do the whole thing. It doesnt really take that long.

Aaron_EF8 · 30-05-2006, 08:23 PM

Timing chains are an area you really don't want to mess around with. If the guide didn't need that 60mm that broke off, Ford wouldn't have put it there in the first place.

If you stuck the broken piece on, and it snapped off again, it could jam the oil pump, and the chain will be rubbing against bare metal, which will be noisey until the chain breaks and sends valves into pistons. It'll be quiet after that though! :P

snypereb · 30-05-2006, 09:10 PM

I over revved mine and broke one they are one of those things that can go in 5 mins or 5 years cost me $500 to get them fixed

CHRIS.ED.GLI · 30-05-2006, 09:48 PM

You should be able to loosen the timing cover and lift the rest out and replace the new one [ around $20 anywhere ] this is very common a friend at a wreckers said 9 out of 10 eng have these broken but it all has to be there to not jam up, so its got to be fixed!

EB Pete · 30-05-2006, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

If you stuck the broken piece on, and it snapped off again, it could jam the oil pump, and the chain will be rubbing against bare metal, which will be noisey until the chain breaks and sends valves into pistons. It'll be quiet after that though! :P

yeah that noise isn't nice when it happens!

beancounter1 · 30-05-2006, 10:53 PM

Can you REALLY get the guide out by simply loosening the timing cover... or is there a bit more to it than that ? It seems to be connected at the bottom end of the guide.

The Goodz · 31-05-2006, 11:00 AM

It's not really worth trying to repair it when the cost of a new timing chain guide kit is like $60-70 from Ford.

Alex

beancounter1 · 31-05-2006, 09:32 PM

OK. You have all convinced me to do the full repair/replacement on this broken chain guide. It's not so much the cost that worries me - but the time, effort, and potential for other stuff ups (which I must say will be pretty easy for a novice mechanic like me!)

Please advise what "special tools" I need to do this job and a rough run down on what is required and what traps I need to look out for. e.g. Do I need a pulley removal tool ?

e.g. How do you "avoid" dropping the bottom chain guide into the sump ?

Key · 31-05-2006, 10:23 PM

It would seem to be much more serious than just the cost on the guide.
I may be wrong but don't you have to take the sump off to remove the front timing cover?
That would almost mean an engine out to do it?

Key · 31-05-2006, 10:25 PM

You'd need a puller and replacer for the harmonic balancer

xr8svo · 01-06-2006, 12:30 PM

you dont need to remove the sump cause u can get the the bolts in the bottom of the cover but you need to be carefull of the bottom guide as when i did it on my old car it fell in the sump. Ended up leaving it there neva even new it was there except I dropped it there.

beancounter1 · 02-06-2006, 09:59 PM

OK. I've got all the timing cover bolts off, the harmonic balancer is off, water pump is off, alternator bracket is off, tensioner pulley is off. When I tried to remove the timing chain tensioner the two bolts came off together in one piece. Is there something else inside there that I need to remove ? The tension is now fully off the chain. Do I have to dismantle the tensioner to get the timing chain cover off ?

Is there anything else that I need to remove ? Do I need to undo the front sump bolts ? Do I need to mark the position of the chain on the sprocket ?

How do I prevent the bottom chain guide from falling into the sump ? It seems to be a common problem.

The Goodz · 02-06-2006, 10:10 PM

Ammm, you'll need a new water pump too... The inner gasket would have been damaged in removing the pump and because it has a metal plate between the inner and outer gaskets which can't be removed, and as a result when you go to reinstall it it will leak... Have seen it happen a few times, besides you don't need to remove the water pump, it's beside the timing cover not in it.

Alex

beancounter1 · 02-06-2006, 10:28 PM

The water pump was removed because it was leaking anyway. I have a new one and one base gasket to go in.

The Goodz · 02-06-2006, 10:35 PM

That's ok then

Alex

bigev · 02-06-2006, 10:42 PM

To get those two bolts apart you'll need to hold the larger round one in place, while turning the inner one with a spanner. The way I managed to do this was holding the round bolt in place with the custom spanner from an angle grinder (the one that you use to get the grinder disc off). It is basically a lever with two prongs on it. My angle grinder spanner didn't fit in to the two holes on the bolt properly, but one of the prongs did and that was enough to hold the outer bolt while turning the inner bolt. The two bolts are held together (normally) with loc-tite so you may need a little extra effort.

When you seperate these, there is a filter attached to the inner bolt - either clean it or replace it. I cleaned mine, but I'm sure they wouldn't be more than a couple of dollars.

I had a heap of difficulty getting my timing chain cover off because the chain had damaged it from the inside, but once the bolts are off you should be able to gently lever it from the block. You dont need to remove any guide bolts to get the cover off though - the broken guide just bolts to the head (as I'm sure you now know), and the other one bolts to the block (at the bottom).

Be aware of the lower chain guide - I lost mine in to the sump - whoops! If you place a large peice of sheet under the timing cover then through between the sump and block (work it down past the first cylinder), the sheet should catch it as it falls and I think you should be able to avoid my mistake. I devised this method AFTER I lost this guide, so I haven't officially tried this.

Once you have the timing cover off it might be worth replacing the rubber crank-bush located around the crank hole in the cover. To get it out you'll need to carefully tap around the bush with a hammer + screwdriver (unless you have a press). You dont have to do this but it might save some leaks down the track - your choice.

Have fun.

PS. Hope you have taken note of where all the bolts came from - especially the million or so bolts that hold the alternator on!

Edit - Forgot to mention though, mines an EF - same rules apply AFAIK

beancounter1 · 02-06-2006, 11:21 PM

Thanks Bigev for that very useful advice.

I will replace the crank-bush/seal - if I can get it out.

I still have a few un-answered questions :

1. Do I need to dismantle the chain tensioner to remove the cover ? or is this optional.

2. Do I need to remove the front sump bolts to get the cover off ?

3. Do I need to mark the position of the chain on the sprocket ?

4. Any other suggestions on how to avoid dropping the bottom chain guide
into the sump. Is the bottom guide attached to the chain cover or the block - or both ?

5. Do I need to remove the chain to get the broken top guide piece out ?

bigev · 03-06-2006, 12:29 AM

You dont need to dismantle the tensioner itself, but you do need to remove those two bolts i mentioned earlier, otherwise you wont be able to re-apply the tension when you put things back together. The actual tensioner is a spring loaded device that has an allen-key screw in one end that is used to add/remove the tension. You'd only need to dismantle the actual tensioner if you were going to clean it. I just bought a new one.

Yes you'll need to remove the front sump bolts (at the very least), they screw in to the bottom of the timing cover. When I did mine I removed all of the sump bolts with the exception of the back row, I only loosened these. I can say though that getting some of them undone from under the car was a ***** of a job. The more of the sump bolts you remove/loosen, the more the sump will drop away from the timing cover making it easier to remove/replace.

You dont need to mark the spot of the chain on the sprockets, however you will need to set the timing BEFORE you remove the chain. To do this (after you get the timing cover off):
1. notice on all 3 sprockets that there is one small notch (or mark) on the outside of each.
2. turn the crank (you'll need to temporarily whack the harmonic ballancer back on) until the notch on the crank sprocket lines up with the notch on the dizzy shaft sprocket. (you'll need to remove the spark plugs to turn the crank).
3. at this point the notch on the cam sprocket will be almost at 3 o'clock - this will also be a few mm above the head - if the 3 spockets are not in this position when you put the chain back on, Bad Things Will Happen (tm).

The bottom guide simply slides between two notches on the inside of timing cover - it's a crappy design - if it isn't there when the cover comes off, it's in the sump.

Yes the chain needs to come off as the guides run behind the chain - hence get the timing right before taking the chain off.

Good luck - It's not brain surgery - i'm a computer geek and i managed to do it (albeit over 3 days :-)

Get a Gregory's manual if you can - or keep asking the blokes in here.

beancounter1 · 03-06-2006, 08:06 AM

Thanks very much (again) Bigev. I am an accountant by profession - hence all the basic questions !

beancounter1 · 03-06-2006, 09:22 PM

Progressing reasonably well with this project - but I cannot get the crank seal out of the timing chain cover. I have tried a screwdriver and hammer, but it is really stuck. I have no press. Any other suggestions ? Can the alloy timing cover be heated to get it out?

The timing chain guide on the drivers side has some serious grooves cut into it which maybe from the chain. I am wondering if these grooves are how the guide was manufactured - or if its stuffed.

A corner piece of sump gasket came off when I levered the front of the sump apart. Should I change the sump gasket or just use lots of sealant ?

bigev · 04-06-2006, 11:49 AM

I had a lot of trouble getting the seal out too - it took me a while. Make sure you progressivly move the screwdriver around the seal, tapping a little at each location. If you've got the new seal there you'll notice that they have a metal ring insie the seal which make it a good fit within the cover.

The guide will have grooves in it just from normal chain wear. If you think about all the revolutions the chian will have done over x,000 km's - it's a lot of revolutions.

Sump gasket comming off is not good. Thats a problem I didn't have. I believe to change the sump gasket you have to lift the engine out. Maybe place the broken bit back and use plenty of sealant as well??? Try and get it right the first otherwise it'll leak and you have to drain the sump for each time you try and repair it. Might be worth putting a cheap oil in it the first time to see if it leaks. Put good oil in it when you know it isn't leaking.

Have a happy Sunday.

NEG · 06-06-2006, 11:04 AM

just so happens I just finished doing my timing chain/ guides. I had to remove all of the sump bolts to get the timing cover back on because the bottom guide is lower than the sump and so wont fit unless the sump is droped down slightly. I also lost my bottom chain guide into the sump :P because i thought i could get away with out removin the sump completley and the guide got caught on the sump and fell in as i was pulling the cover off. If you have busted the sump gasket u need to lift the motor out to replace the gasket, so id probly try lots of sealant first. with removing the crank oil seal i just got a pair or wire cutters, grab it by the metal ring and twisted and ripped the thing apart. also make sure the timing chain tensioner oil pressure valve in the block dosnt fall into the sump either.

beancounter1 · 07-06-2006, 06:34 PM

I have removed most of the sump bolts except a couple at the back of the sump. The old sump gasket is mostly still stuck to the block. Now that the "seal" has been broken, I assume that I would either need to fully replace the sump gasket or leave the old gasket there and use sealant to make a seal on the broken surface. I assume that both surfaces would need to be cleaned so that a good contact is made.

Is it possible to do all of the above while the engine is still in the car ? Removing the engine seems like a big job, just to replace 1 gasket. There might be enough gap above the sump to slip a new gasket into without removing the engine. Is this possible ? Any suggestions ?

My lower chain guide did NOT fall into the sump, because I successfully used the TIP above by Bigev of slipping a plastic sheet above the sump.

I finally got the old crank seal off and replaced. I am pretty sure that the oil pressure regulator is still embedded in the block and hasn't fallen out (yet).

sr180 · 08-06-2006, 03:57 PM

I did it the easy way.. Just used some glue, and a couple of pk screws and a metal plate to glue and bolt the timing chain guide back together. As far as im concerned, its stronger than it ever originally was and didnt require pulling apart of the engine.
Its done around 30,000kms so far with no hassle.. (the engine is only a baby at 280,000)