Qantas, what a joke

[XRQTR]

Just heard on the news not 5 minutes ago that Qantas are sending 400 jobs to India because, wait for it, their are not enough skilled IT workers here in Oz, it would seem that the Libs IR laws are really gonna get a pounding in the news this week and rightly so.

Looks like the loop holes are abundant for those with the time and people to find them, I can't believe that this is being allowed to happen and that the opposition hasn't voiced their outrage at this point.

Could this be the beginning of the end of the paradise we call Australia for the common working man? I guess only time will tell and at the rate of this kind of thing I don't think we will be waiting long to find out.

[rag top]

There might be some truth in that - In my workplace, we are struggling to fill IT jobs.

[GTP-814]

I'm just trying to think where qantas would employ 400 IT staff, this to me sounds like they are sending 400 call centre staff off shore

[GraveDilute]

Combination of not being able to find staff willing to stay put, and a cheaper price tag I'd say. Most mates of mine in IT are on contracts, and whore themselves out to the higher bidder.

[Redrum]

Speaking to a member of Holden admin located at Fishermans Bend and she said most of their jobs have been moved off shore to India. She said no end to problems. They always claim to, when asked, to know what they doing, but hardly ever do and then make a mess of it. All these companies going the cheap, will get what they pay for and in the end it will come and bite them on the ****, we can only hope!

[LTDHO]

sure it's cheaper but service level drops dramastically.

I guess Qantas look after their shareholders.

[S3SR]

i know for a fact there are more 'IT people" then the number of 'IT people' who actually know.

its not supprising, but i dont think qantas even tried looking for workers they just assumed everything.

[MYVYSS]

Having been in IT Implementations for the last 8 years, I can tell you know there is a massive shortage in the industry, I am getting approx 3 jobs offers a WEEK..and unlike someone mentioned I see my contracts out, I do NOT whore myself around.... At the moment I could basically pick anywhere in Australia and in 15 minutes find myself a job......

[jonbays]

I am in IT and good tech's are hard to find the Indian guys as a whole very good english and great techs. Quite a few scams though with a few doddgy credentials but who doesn't lie on thier CV whatever the nationality? Its got to happen we don't invest in being the clever country and there are lots of farm boys from Punjab with the brains and more incentive to use them to get ahead than there are aussies. No i am not a Indian, A POHM actually! A white one! Just in case you think this is bias

[Stav]

This is not good at all. The government takes record taxes from business so I think moving labour off shore for their survival is a step to ensure bigger profits. They are justified to do so. Does India have payroll tax and the likes? Probably not. How much can companies be milked before drastic steps are taken?

Yes our systems are failing the Australian worker and business.

[LowEL2XR8]

Maybe its a case of there is enough skilled IT workers but they want too much money so we go cheap, poor, unskilled labour overseas.

[flappist]

There is a huge shortage of skilled IT who have a work ethic.

What there is not a shortage of is pimply faced youths who are extremely knowlegeble on xbox or playstation, expect to be paid $100,000 per year to play with the latest pentium extreme ++ quad processor workstations and not actually have to interact with other people except on MSN.

There seems to be a lot of confusion in this country.

A Cert4 from TAFE is not actually equivelent to a PhD regardless of what the teachers have told you.

A Bachelors Degree is a document that shows that you have attained the skillset that will allow you to LEARN not that you are a seasoned expert.

Working more than 37 hours and going for at least 2 weeks without a sicky is not just a plot from a horror movie.

Solving problems quickly and then moving on to the next job without expecting to be adulated and basked in glory is how the real world works.

Asking for help rather than spending 3 days solving a 10 minute problem is not a sign of weakness and failure.

I have been employing and training IT people for over 20 years, it is getting worse and worse. It is not the actual people who are the problem, it is our education system and their creation of unreal and totally fantastic expectations in the graduatiing students.

/rant

[LowEL2XR8]

Top post there flappist. Thats kind what I was suggesting I just left out the details. haha.

[MITCHAY]

I'm currently doing a Diploma of Software Development. There seems to be a lot of demand for IT people. I have been trying to find an IT job to have whilst studying but haven't found anything thus far. Actually want to start practising what I have learnt and learn more, instead of doing nothing.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

sure it's cheaper but service level drops dramastically.

I guess Qantas look after their shareholders.

Wrong.

Its the CEO that looks after himself, by moving work offshore for a cheaper rate they show how they have added value to the company thereby justifying the exhorbitant pay packets. Everyone involved in the process at HQ gets a bonus to cut costs usually in the form of stock options so as not to attract to much attention from the ATO.

A friend who works in Canberra recently told me of the amounts of money the Fed Gov actually throw away into projects that never see light of day, and we are not talking in the 10's either, add anther 0. Its amazing how big biz and the government pay packets are self regulated, I think it's time the Government salaries were looked into by their employer, Us

[RPO83]

So we have a fictional IT skills shortage?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I'm currently doing a Diploma of Software Development. There seems to be a lot of demand for IT people. I have been trying to find an IT job to have whilst studying but haven't found anything thus far. Actually want to start practising what I have learnt and learn more, instead of doing nothing.

Just keep trying. Your problem is that no one will trust you because you have no experience and you can't get experience because no one will trust you.

Attitude is 110% of the solution. Employers recognise good attitude and now we have the new IR laws can afford to give you a go without the previous risk.

Good luck with your job hunting and remember the more you hunt the luckier you will become.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by flappist

Just keep trying. Your problem is that no one will trust you because you have no experience and you can't get experience because no one will trust you.

Yeah that's what is funny. The majority of ads say 'experience needed' and I said to myself how the hell am I sposed to get experience if no one gives me a go?

My mum might be getting this job in the public service, and she said that they are pretty short of people, so I might have half a foot in the door with that.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Yeah that's what is funny. The majority of ads say 'experience needed' and I said to myself how the hell am I sposed to get experience if no one gives me a go?

My mum might be getting this job in the public service, and she said that they are pretty short of people, so I might have half a foot in the door with that.

Every job these days they ask for experience, lol only because of the high turnover of staff at some places/industries their is always an abundance of out of work or recently laid off people with the relevant experience.

A family member or friend can often be a great hand up into a good job, even it is only at the 'bottom of the heap', what people forget these days is stories like, sorry forgot his name, that Aussie guy that was heading McD's, he started sweeping floors and making burgers just like everyone else in the stores and did something with it. Sure their was obviously some luck involved in him getting as high as he did, but the moral is that "it can be done, nothing is impossible so long as you believe it" oh ye and alot of effort and hard work never goes astray

Good luck kid

[BlueRaven]

This is uncanny. I just read that St George wants to move their phone support to India. I like St George, but to hear that - I want to change banks.

[GCFordChic]

Wow, a couple of interesting points i have never come across.

I was sure that there would be huge amounts of skilled IT workers, but i suppose the frustrations expressed by Flappist in finding people with the right sort of skills is logical when you think about it. There has been a huge "IT movement" in the last few decades and there are many levels and different types of 'skills' a person in the field could have. Much like retail there is a difference between a checkout chic and a store manager in experience, skills and formal qualifications, however in a media report both of those jobs could be classified as 'retail jobs'. Herein lies another problem, what can we comment on or develop ideas from for our personal direction in the future if media reports are as vague as this?

And XRQTR, although i do agree with what you are saying about the CEO's, it does also show that they are acting for shareholders (particularly shareholder return) in finding the cheapest form of labour to reduce costs etc, because with a corporation of this scale the amount of money saved by reducing labour costs is much, much more than the salaries of the executives.

Always bugs me to hear of things like this occuring, but it doesnt seem to surprise me anymore when it is reported that some other company is going offshore.
When they start bringing in Lawyers from offshore, or begin to outsource legal advice to Indian call centres, make sure somebody tells me!

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by GCFordChic

And XRQTR, although i do agree with what you are saying about the CEO's, it does also show that they are acting for shareholders (particularly shareholder return) in finding the cheapest form of labour to reduce costs etc, because with a corporation of this scale the amount of money saved by reducing labour costs is much, much more than the salaries of the executives.

Ummm, I take it you don't watch Business Sunday and the likes too often, Saul Trojiya (spelling) took home over AU$9million whle Telstra shares went down again, would you perhaps care to justify that in the interests of share holders?? out:

Also this is all tax free for our offshore execs, while shareholders are barraged with taxes from every angle, by this I mean smaller shareholders, the bigger fish obviously offset earnings in various ways to cover themselves

[GCFordChic]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

Ummm, I take it you don't watch Business Sunday and the likes too often, Saul Trojiya (spelling) took home over AU$9million whle Telstra shares went down again, would you perhaps care to justify that in the interests of share holders?? out:

Also this is all tax free for our offshore execs, while shareholders are barraged with taxes from every angle, by this I mean smaller shareholders, the bigger fish obviously offset earnings in various ways to cover themselves

Jumping to Telstra as an example for interests of shareholders has little to do with my general point about QANTAS making a move to slash expenses by hiring cheaper labour, thereby increasing profit (assuming sales and other incoming stays the same) and hence, increasing value of shares and chance of dividends and amount of dividends paid to shareholders.

As for the tax comment, i agree, i consider continual tax review and reform to be a vital and much needed thing to counter the problems you outlined.

[biomechanic]

Having worked previously with a few IT groups in Bangalore, I can say that most negative perceptions of outsourced IT workers are correct. They have poor communication skills, poor training, poor management, and produce poor results. Whether it be a simple website, or complex warehousing/inventory/billing systems, there is little pride taken in their work, from initial design through to deployment.

Unfortunately amongst management culture there seems to be a "rough enough's good enough" attitude to IT and its associated arms. I believe unless there is a fundamental change in the output we get from outsourced IT workers, then management will eventually realise that outsourcing is an incredibly short sighted solution, and will again start investing more heavily in IT, more specifically local IT resources. If it doesn't, however, there's just no way I can compete with someone who will work for $5 an hour.

[GCFordChic]

Originally Posted by biomechanic

I believe unless there is a fundamental change in the output we get from outsourced IT workers, then management will eventually realise that outsourcing is an incredibly short sighted solution, and will again start investing more heavily in IT, more specifically local IT resources. If it doesn't, however, there's just no way I can compete with someone who will work for $5 an hour.

Another good point, it is a short term solution. However, i believe, much like the petrol or water 'crisis'', there are decisions being made to counter problems in the short term (without consideration for the long-term) because the people in charge of these determinations only expect to be in the position for a few years.
This means sometimes the decision makers are attempting to ensure their retirement/renumeration on leaving is as big as possible, which is generally based on their performance during their time in control. But long-term changes dont tend to pay off in the short term, which would make it seem like some of the CEO's/members of government are not doing any good in their position, and the people in the same position in the future will reap the rewards of another person's good work.

Unfortunately it's only going to keep on happening when (as biomechanic said) other people are willing to work for alot less than us, doing the same job, regardless of the quality of output.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by flappist

There is a huge shortage of skilled IT who have a work ethic.

What there is not a shortage of is pimply faced youths who are extremely knowlegeble on xbox or playstation, expect to be paid $100,000 per year to play with the latest pentium extreme ++ quad processor workstations and not actually have to interact with other people except on MSN.

There seems to be a lot of confusion in this country.

A Cert4 from TAFE is not actually equivelent to a PhD regardless of what the teachers have told you.

A Bachelors Degree is a document that shows that you have attained the skillset that will allow you to LEARN not that you are a seasoned expert.

Working more than 37 hours and going for at least 2 weeks without a sicky is not just a plot from a horror movie.

Solving problems quickly and then moving on to the next job without expecting to be adulated and basked in glory is how the real world works.

Asking for help rather than spending 3 days solving a 10 minute problem is not a sign of weakness and failure.

I have been employing and training IT people for over 20 years, it is getting worse and worse. It is not the actual people who are the problem, it is our education system and their creation of unreal and totally fantastic expectations in the graduatiing students.

/rant

Yup, you know it well. After being an IT consultant for the last 13 years I can say that experiance is the be all and end all. Degree's and the like count for nothing in my industry.
Flappist, you know exactly what goes on and what works by the sound of it. You also know that, when found, a long term good consultant can make a hell of an income and STILL make the company a good profit!

[XRQTR]

Experience counts everywhere Shane, believe me, even though I had been in the construction industry for some 13 years and self employed for the last 7 of those, when I went for a Site Supervisors position they told me I didnt have enough Uni. So It's not always just hands on that counts. Keep in mind thought that a site supervisor is only really the next step for a tradesman, so it's not like I was aiming too high or out of my expertise, it's just that with pen pushers taking over so much they can only go by a written guideline, damn anyone that doesnt meet the criteria guidelines.

As for the short term fixes GCFordChik, that is the problem, their contracts don't really appreciate the time it takes to actually turn a company around, or perhaps that should be, the incoming does realise thereby requesting a shorter term contract in order to reap greater rewards. I mean, and I don't mean to simplify things too greatly, I'm sure that their would even be people here that could do as good as if not better a job and would be willing to do it for a fraction of the money.

Alot has to do with looking after the mates and getting into peoples pockets, I mean if outsourcing is so cheap then you would think that all these 'imported' CEO's would be happy working for the same as an exec salary in Bangalor. AMP would be another great example of backroom dealings and looking after your mates, you know if I had to I could go on, their really is no need in my opinion and I would say in many others to justify the raping and pilageing that some of these imports and even some locals have been given free reign to do.

Thats about, hmmm, I think about $2.20 and some change so far from me lol.

[flappist]

If you guys REALLY want to be scared......

QANTAS management (not aviation management) are pressuring CASA to create a new "Multi crew only" pilot's licence to combat the shortage of tech crew caused by the destruction of GA in this country.
This new licence, if approved, will allow people to be trained to SO level on a heavy jet purely in a simulator, that is not having ever actually flown an aircraft.

For those who are not familiar with how a pilot's licence is obtained.

You need at least 40 hours of actual flying to qualify as a private pilot.

You need at least 200 hours of actual flying to qualify as a commercial pilot. This licence will allow you to fly a single engine aircraft during the day in good weather (no cloud). A further several hundred hours and a lot more training will allow you to fly a single crew aircraft less than 5700kg with more than one engine but no one will insure you until you have a lot more experience.

In order to be elegible to be TRAINED on a heavy jet you must be at ATPL level which is a commercial licence with 1500 hours of actual flying.

This would be equivelent to driving at least 150,000km at 100km/h BEFORE you were allowed to learn to drive a bigger bus.

As you may suspect this costs a lot of money and takes a long time but the end result is the guys up the front actually know what they are doing and is a major reason why we have very few incedents here.

The bean counters reckon you can get the same experience on a giant xbox............

If they do this I will NEVER EVER get in an australian registered aircraft that I am not actually flying and will treat control zones like ricer conventions.....

[Outbackjack]

I have been a qantas frequent flyer now for about 10 years. I have about 300,000 points. But the last 3 times I have tried to book a flight using my points, no go. No seats. So from now on , given the announcement of 400 Aussie jobs going overseas, no more qantas flights for my family as a first choice carrier. We are just looking at filights to Malaysia for a April holiday, we were giving qantas first dibs. But not now. Malaysian airlines, here we come. Where will this end???

[rigs]

Cant say im much of a fan of I.T. outsourcing.
It often seems to be a short-sighted cost-cutting measure implemented that costs a lot to bring it all back onsite/onshore when it goes pearshaped for long enough.
Its not too say its all bad - use it for what it is good for - cheap labour.
Just like getting large manufacturing contracts done in asia - you can get indian firms running dozens or hundreds of developers pumping out code for large or time sensitive implementations (But not every type of implementation requires a huge amount of code to be cut)
However - the thing sometimes overlooked is that there is a very large technical management overhead to make sure that you get what you want - get the quality required. i.e. You have to spend extra time and money on suppling extremely detailed requirements and specifications - have detailed and ongong code reviews throughout the project - have very comprehensive testplans etc etc. The Gaps in communication are huge - hence extra effort has to be put in to take care of the inevitable extra issues that will occur.

Its a financial decision of course - the major bone I have with it is the actual "cost" of outsourcing is hard, if not impossible, to quantify - the major "cost" in my eyes is not simply the $$ to pay the actual contract - but the time taken to deliver the solution that works at the required service level - because more often than not, these expectations are not met.

Some seem to have "forgotten" most of the time the major cost in I.T. is in maintenance...