![]() |
|
Welcome to the Australian Ford Forums forum. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and inserts advertising. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features without post based advertising banners. Registration is simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. Please Note: All new registrations go through a manual approval queue to keep spammers out. This is checked twice each day so there will be a delay before your registration is activated. |
|
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
![]() |
#1 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Dubbo, formerly Canberra
Posts: 342
|
So I dropped the car off Friday at a local independent mechanics' shop to carry out the 10-year major service (timing belt change, etc).
Around lunchtime they rang me up to say that after removing the old belt, they'd uncovered that the head gasket has failed and is allowing coolant to leak down the front of the engine. It wasn't wet (which would indicate a catastrophic leak) but there is clear evidence that seepage has been occurring behind the timing belt cover, originating from between the engine block and cylinder head. I discussed the situation with the technician a bit who advised that it's not likely to worsen rapidly and I'll be able to have forewarning that it's getting bad by monitoring the coolant levels and watching for puddles under the car, etc. (I may be able to inspect for myself with the timing cover off also.) On that understanding that it may be okay for at least a little while I gave the go-ahead to proceed with installing the new parts and completing the service. The tech advised that with a diesel, replacing the head gasket is not really viable as it's a very involved job, and that diesel engines are never really the same once it's put back together. ("Not a job we'd be happy to do.") He floated engine replacement (with a second-hand unit) as a safer option. Or promptly trading-in the car. It bites, after the brouhaha with the transmission 5-6 years ago I was really hoping to get good service out of this vehicle for many years to come. It even felt markedly better driving back after the service (fresher, smoother, more responsive), but I can't escape this is probably terminal for the engine. The absolute best I can hope is the leak never worsens? Pic below provided to me by the tech after removal of the old timing belt. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#2 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 962
|
Bugger! Doesn’t look too bad though.
I’d be rolling the dice on continuing to use it. What have you got to lose? It’s not likely to catastrophically fail suddenly. The only issue would be if it lets you down inconveniently.
__________________
Steve Current rides 2012 Mondeo Titanium wagon (TDCI) Moondust silver 2016 Focus Trend, 1.5ecoboost, 6sp manual. Frozen white Previous 2004 Berlina Wagon (LS1) Vespers Blue 1995 Camry 2.2, white 1971 Ford Fairmont wagon 302w, C4 Polar white 1971 TC Cortina, 2L 4sp, Ermine white |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#3 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Dubbo, formerly Canberra
Posts: 342
|
Well.
I've got a young family (three kids under 7) so safety and reliability are priorities for the family vehicle. Unfortunately it looks like those were delete options on this example ![]() We do have a fair business case for getting into a people mover (and I do like the new Carnival) but I was hoping to forestall making any kind of upgrade for at least another five years. Because finances, and I do (or I did) like my wagon. I'll certainly continue to use it while I try to gauge how bad this leaking is over the short term. I still need to get a look under the timing cover for myself and set up a monitor on the coolant level. Maybe it won't significantly worsen, and I'll arrive at the belt change 20 year service and wiping the same little wick of seepage off the block. Or maybe she'll be kaput in six months, hard to say ![]() What's to lose? While it's still a functional car, and the problem is minor, I could trade it in and at least get something toward replacement. If in the time it takes to understand the scope of the problem it worsens significantly then I possibly won't be able to unload it at all. But these retain so precious little of their value, I'm unsure whether that's in my favour or not... |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#4 | ||
DIY Tragic
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Sydney, more than not. I hate it.
Posts: 21,974
|
What about temporarily looping the heater hoses and getting a leak-chasing sealant into the motor? Even if you do that annually, it should see you good. Look for one that mentions the block, not just a radiator leak temporary fix.
I understand the mechanic’s reticence about a head off repair, the issue is these usually come after overheating and that’s when you have all the joys of stuff like precomp chambers loosening. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#5 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,878
|
Maybe try backing off the head studs and retorquing as they seem to loosen over time.Years ago with the Jap import engines head gasket leaks were very common,but we found by retorquing head studs the problem was almost nonexistant.
|
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#6 | ||
FG XR6 Ute & Sedan
![]() Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bibra Lake WA
Posts: 23,026
|
Perhaps ask Allan Howatt of Steve's Taxis and Car Sales Alconbury UK https://www.youtube.com/c/alan4x6677 Try messaging him at https://www.facebook.com/alan.howatt/about He'll certainly an expert with these engines and will know if the advice you got is correct and the alternatives. He's apparently pretty responsive to such request but I locate his email address. Perhaps try him at StevesCarSales@stevescarsalesalconbury per https://www.facebook.com/stevescarsalesalconbury . Otherwise wait for one of his YouTube Question and Answers love streams.
__________________
regards Blue |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#7 | ||
Challenge Accepted!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Under the Southern Cross
Posts: 882
|
I'll have to look at my photos Mondaveo, I don't want to get your hopes up, but I'm not seeing an issue here personally.
Have you ever washed down the engine, or it has gotten wet by driving in the wet? I'm sure mine took me by surprise with rust patterns, but I did have a weeping WP. Me personally I'd drive it and enjoy it till a problem arises. Monitor coolant for now, but it shouldn't be a cause of concern. Again I'll have a look at my original pics.
__________________
Undecided replacement... [SOLD] -2009 MB Mondeo Zetec TDCI- [SOLD] |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
3 users like this post: |
![]() |
#8 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 1,262
|
Quote:
Did they do a pressure test or any tests on the coolant such as leak down? Sent from my SM-G980F using Tapatalk
__________________
MB Mondeo TDCi wagon, sea grey, on MAK Invidia 16" wheels. |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#9 | ||||||||
Regular Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Dubbo, formerly Canberra
Posts: 342
|
Thanks folks for the suggestions.
Quote:
Disconnecting the heater core is an ingenious idea so thanks for that. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think there were any tests done, the diagnosis was based on experience of seeing multiple motors with gasket failure (though they've never seen it on a diesel Mondeo before). The mechanic gave a first-hand account of a Falcon he owned, which had this issue and looked exactly like this when he bought it. He monitored it and over some span of time the leaking worsened, until he did the head gasket to repair it. |
||||||||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#10 | |||
Moderator
![]() ![]() Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Foothills of the Macedon Ranges
Posts: 18,551
|
Quote:
And don't take too much notice of other peoples experiences, situations are generally different especially with different engine types. |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#11 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 781
|
Hi Mondaveo,
I'm siding with Silver Ghia, Cobrin and NZ XR6 because I'm not convinced that what is shown in the photo is a gasket failure. I'm basing this on what I suspect are fluid tracks on the face of the Head immediately above the gasket to the left of the welch plug. I think the head is an alloy (?) and that would not give the kind of corrosion marks you see on the face of the block. I'm also thinking that the filaments of the head gasket that are shown protruding would tend to break up a slow fluid flow into a differing pattern on the block face when the fluid finds a path between the gasket filaments. Keeping an eye on coolant levels is wise advice. I'd expect that you will not see major coolant loss in short periods of use. If that were to occur then it's time to get the timing belt cover off and have another look. I would not be considering a change of vehicle or a major repair until things got considerably worse than they are now. I'm betting that the rate of loss, if that is what it is, is so tiny that when the engine is running the fluid evaporates and does no damage. Once the engine is cool enough any fluid remains liquid and causes the tracks until the cooling system pressure equalises with the outside atmosphere, at which point any leak would stop. Good Luck - if you need it ![]() Cheers
__________________
AlanD ![]() Our Drive: Mondeo MD TDCi Titanium Wagon Ruby Red |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#12 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Dubbo, formerly Canberra
Posts: 342
|
Alright alright you guys, you've convinced me (lol).
Agreed I should wait a little bit and see whether there's any evidence to back up the prediction of an untimely demise. The diagnosis did come from a professional but I suppose they might have it wrong. I did think it odd that a diesel motor could have a fundamental weakness like this, since they need to be built strong to work at all. Also since the coolant is a ten-year service item, and I've never noticed it was getting low or had to top it up since I've owned the vehicle, it's either only leaked a minute amount or is not actually leaking at all. The advice I've gotten from some who claim to know is I ought to just get rid of the black sheep. It's lucky we don't rely on experts or everyone might believe that Powershifts are going to grenade on you and Fords retain no resale value ![]() |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#13 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canberra Region
Posts: 8,943
|
I dont think there was ever an issue with the wet clutch powershift in the diesels, it was the dry clutch ones that was the problem.
__________________
2016 FGX XR8 Sprint, 6speed manual, Kinetic Blue #170 2004 BA wagon RTV project. 1998 EL XR8, Auto, Hot Chilli Red 1993 ED XR6, 5speed, Polynesian Green. 1 of 329. Retired 1968 XT Falcon 500 wagon, 3 on the tree, 3.6L. Patina project. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Dubbo, formerly Canberra
Posts: 342
|
Not wanting to get off track...
Quote:
Ask me how I know! |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#15 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Goulburn NSW
Posts: 316
|
Quote:
![]()
__________________
2012 MC Mondeo LX TDCi Wagon - Highway Hack 392K km and counting - Now gone 😢 2008 Peugeot 308 HDi - Highway Hack II 2008 Citroen C4 HDi - Highway Hack III 2010 Peugeot 308 HDi SW - Shaggin Wagon II 2016 VDJ200R Landcruiser GX Wagon - TTD V8 Power ![]() 2017 Toyota RAV4 GX Wagon - Shopping trolley - Gone 2022 Volvo XC40 T4 Inscription - Shopping trolley II 2002 BMW R1150GS |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#16 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Goulburn NSW
Posts: 316
|
I would not be surprised if the tracks you see, are remnants of engine cleaner or degreaser that may have squeezed past the timing belt cover in the past.
Detailers and car yards will go to town trying to make an engine bay look like new when selling a second hand car. Fingers crossed its nothing serious
__________________
2012 MC Mondeo LX TDCi Wagon - Highway Hack 392K km and counting - Now gone 😢 2008 Peugeot 308 HDi - Highway Hack II 2008 Citroen C4 HDi - Highway Hack III 2010 Peugeot 308 HDi SW - Shaggin Wagon II 2016 VDJ200R Landcruiser GX Wagon - TTD V8 Power ![]() 2017 Toyota RAV4 GX Wagon - Shopping trolley - Gone 2022 Volvo XC40 T4 Inscription - Shopping trolley II 2002 BMW R1150GS |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#17 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 805
|
To me it looks like it came from the water pump and ran up (drafts) to the head where it seems to stop short.
The draft might be from the timing belt. I think it is going up in that area? Last edited by rondeo; 12-12-2021 at 01:06 PM. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#18 | |||
FG XR6 Ute & Sedan
![]() Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bibra Lake WA
Posts: 23,026
|
Quote:
__________________
regards Blue |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#19 | ||
FG XR6 Ute & Sedan
![]() Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bibra Lake WA
Posts: 23,026
|
It is an odd one. If the head gasket was failing you would expect considerable more corrosion and rust stains. It's almost if it was assembled with some water or other corrosive fluid left on the face of the block.
__________________
regards Blue |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#20 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 805
|
Looks to me like both trails lead to the pump mounting bolt holes, go around and then into the impeller cavity.
The left one turns left and the right one turns right. Whatever the case, it doesn't look like a head gasket leak to me. Last edited by rondeo; 12-12-2021 at 07:16 PM. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#21 | ||
FG XR6 Ute & Sedan
![]() Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bibra Lake WA
Posts: 23,026
|
Has the owner OP actually looked at the engine yourself or is he relying on an emailed photograph? I would at least asked to view it yourself to may sure you are not being conned.
Can someone on this forum confirm that is actually a picture of MKIV Mondeo 2.0 engine as I cannot find a YouTube video for a timing chain/water pump change with a matching picture and it's not an engine I'm that familiar with? I been looking at all the videos and pics I could find of timing chain and water pump replacements to see if the had the same rust staining patterns.
__________________
regards Blue Last edited by aussiblue; 12-12-2021 at 07:20 PM. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#22 | |||
FG XR6 Ute & Sedan
![]() Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bibra Lake WA
Posts: 23,026
|
Quote:
__________________
regards Blue |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#23 | |||
FG XR6 Ute & Sedan
![]() Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bibra Lake WA
Posts: 23,026
|
Quote:
__________________
regards Blue |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#24 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,878
|
Certainly with you on that Blue,there’s no sign of water stains inside the pump gasket line. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if it isn’t old washdown water stain.I would be just keeping an eye of any water usage for a while
|
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#25 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Goulburn NSW
Posts: 316
|
__________________
2012 MC Mondeo LX TDCi Wagon - Highway Hack 392K km and counting - Now gone 😢 2008 Peugeot 308 HDi - Highway Hack II 2008 Citroen C4 HDi - Highway Hack III 2010 Peugeot 308 HDi SW - Shaggin Wagon II 2016 VDJ200R Landcruiser GX Wagon - TTD V8 Power ![]() 2017 Toyota RAV4 GX Wagon - Shopping trolley - Gone 2022 Volvo XC40 T4 Inscription - Shopping trolley II 2002 BMW R1150GS |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#26 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 805
|
It's been three years since I did my timing belt, but yes the photo does match the engine.
On mine the water pump seal was weeping, so another theory might be that coolant came from there... The belt runs more or less between the two tracks of supposed coolant in the photo. The idler mounting bolt holt can be seen immediately to the right of the tracks. My thought was that given it's a ribbed belt whoosing up through there maybe the coolant was swept up. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#27 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Dubbo, formerly Canberra
Posts: 342
|
Been looking to get a second professional opinion, and I've come across a mobile mechanic who operates locally with a specialisation in French cars (a former Citroen/Peugeot master mechanic who quit the dealership and went independent).
Mondeo, we know, runs the joint Ford-Peugeot-Citroen diesel engine and thus falls within his purview. I've asked his thoughts on the photograph I got from the other mechanic and this is his take: Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#28 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Goulburn NSW
Posts: 316
|
Quote:
__________________
2012 MC Mondeo LX TDCi Wagon - Highway Hack 392K km and counting - Now gone 😢 2008 Peugeot 308 HDi - Highway Hack II 2008 Citroen C4 HDi - Highway Hack III 2010 Peugeot 308 HDi SW - Shaggin Wagon II 2016 VDJ200R Landcruiser GX Wagon - TTD V8 Power ![]() 2017 Toyota RAV4 GX Wagon - Shopping trolley - Gone 2022 Volvo XC40 T4 Inscription - Shopping trolley II 2002 BMW R1150GS |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |