Proposed Bikie Laws

balthazarr · 06-04-2009, 08:59 AM

From http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/hum...q.html?page=-1: (my emphasis)

Quote:

SINCE the bikie assault at Sydney Airport, governments have been considering whether to introduce laws similar to those in South Australia. These laws would restrict the rights to freedom of movement, freedom of association and freedom of expression.

Is such restriction justified in a free and democratic society? Who should decide the limits on these rights — Parliament or the courts?

What process should the parliamentarians or judges follow before deciding to impose such limits? ...

Whether or not there is a national bill of rights, we need to be on our guard against laws and policies enacted in the name of the public interest but with insufficient consideration for the human rights of the minority.

Bikies are never popular; some of them are mean and anti-social, and some are not. But they all have human rights. Someone has to weigh individual rights and the common good in the balance, rationally and accountably, for the good of us all.

Good questions.

I didn't realise that SA already had such laws.

It seems more and more of our basic rights and freedoms are coming under attack - either by federal or state governments.

Why are these knee-jerk reaction laws being passed or considered (eg. Internet censorship, confiscation of 'hoon's' vehicles, anti-bikie laws), and why are we allowing them to be passed without arking up?

I've been accused of being 'hysterical' in a thread on this forum discussing the internet censorship issue... As I've said before, it's a slippery slope - once you start limiting rights and freedoms, it's hard to stop.

Australian's are typically laid back and apathetic... maybe too apathetic.

4Vman · 06-04-2009, 09:00 AM

Its unworkable.... and frankly stupid.
How do you stop a group of people congregating, talking or riding together?

flappist · 06-04-2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Its unworkable.... and frankly stupid.
How do you stop a group of people congregating, talking or riding together?

Well just hire an interpreter, there are lots of detailed manuals written over the last 60 years in German, Mandarin, Russian, Korean, Spanish, Serbian, Croation, Romanian, Algerian, Pashtu.........

4Vman · 06-04-2009, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Well just hire an interpreter, there are lots of detailed manuals written over the last 60 years in German, Mandarin, Russian, Korean, Spanish, Serbian, Croation, Romanian, Algerian, Pashtu.........

yeah.. and what a great success it was for them in the end, albiet after many years of abuse.. still history hasn't shy'd the current mob has it.
The notion of outlawing "groups" or "clubs" is ridiculous in the extreme.
"Illegal acts" are just that, "illegal acts", just police their activities the way you police everyone else in society.

dreadly · 06-04-2009, 09:33 AM

Bloody ridiculous!
It's the media who have blown this out of proportion.... This stuff goes on all the time- It's only cause it's been on the news every other day, that people are being shown one side.
I personally dont have a problem with bikies... there always gonna be there.
And what most dont know is the pure size, and power these clubs have... They own so much real estate it's not funny, last i heard about 30% of the cross alone. Thats big $$$ big taxes, the fuel these guys use hense the levy gst exsis etc etc... the government should be very carefull here..... what to so the publics average 85 iq mums and dads, can think somethings being done or made to feel safe?
Bikies contribute alot to society, and generate oz alot of cash.
If it's not one gang it'll be another etc etc..... and id rather aussie bikies.... say than some non english speaking ethinic so and so's running the show

Black F6 · 06-04-2009, 09:34 AM

They are only talking about outlaw motorcycle gangs arent they, why should they be allowed to be in gangs, arent there already laws against consorting, I dont know why they just dont use these laws.

4Vman · 06-04-2009, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFXRScott

They are only talking about outlaw motorcycle gangs arent they, why should they be allowed to be in gangs, arent there already laws against consorting, I dont know why they just dont use these laws.

What's a "motorcycle gang"???

fordAU · 06-04-2009, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

How do you stop a group of people congregating, talking or riding together?

Habitual association under consorting law legislation perhaps ? but that's just a wild guess on my part..

**Elks** · 06-04-2009, 09:50 AM

The proposed law is stupid. What consitutes 'outlaw'? What percentage of a club needs to be criminal to make a club outlaw. How do you stop this being abused? How do you in law differentiate Hells Angels MC from Ravenswood Junior Motorcross club??

If they have proof of some memebers of a club, any club commiting crimes put them in jail.

My favorite thing in all this is the "Outlaw Motorcyle Gang" from Sydney called Notorius,(or something like that) who apparently don't ride motorcylces they just drive cars. If that is OK, which car club is next? Falcon GT Club? Did one of them break the speed limit? Should we ban all GT's then or just punish the wrong doers.

4Vman · 06-04-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myts

The proposed law is stupid. What consitutes 'outlaw'? What percentage of a club needs to be criminal to make a club outlaw. How do you stop this being abused? How do you in law differentiate Hells Angels MC from Ravenswood Junior Motorcross club??

If they have proof of some memebers of a club, any club commiting crimes put them in jail.

My favorite thing in all this is the "Outlaw Motorcyle Gang" from Sydney called Notorius,(or something like that) who apparently don't ride motorcylces they just drive cars. If that is OK, which car club is next? Falcon GT Club? Did one of them break the speed limit? Should we ban all GT's then or just punish the wrong doers.

Exactly my point, i was a member of Nunawading motorcross club and Ravenswood "MC" we used to congregate every sunday, ride our bikes, hang out... i bet some of the member broke the law too, so i guess i was a member of two "motorcycle gangs"...
how you'd go about defining this legislation without lumping every club with a motorcycle slant is beyond me...

Wally · 06-04-2009, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balthazarr

......
I've been accused of being 'hysterical' in a thread on this forum discussing the internet censorship issue... As I've said before, it's a slippery slope - once you start limiting rights and freedoms, it's hard to stop.

Australian's are typically laid back and apathetic... maybe too apathetic.

Well I'm too old to get hysterical, but I'm with you when it comes to overuse of governence to control the population.

I heard about this issue from a friend in WA :- http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...31/2531546.htm

and while it does make a good story, it demonstrates the willingness of the govt. to over penalise for the over exuberance of youth.

jcxr · 06-04-2009, 10:05 AM

Cant see 'em banning Ulysses Motorcycle Club members either. Im sure there would also be some of their riders that have had convictions going back several decades or more. lol

**Polyal** · 06-04-2009, 10:06 AM

I agree its stupid, but in saying that some bikie gangs get away with murder.

It is ridiculous to stop people from meeting, what the police should do is crack down on one group at a time in which they know do dodgy activities. Ping them for everything, littering, speeding, etc etc, annoy the crap out of them and make their association a burden to run.

Problem is its big money involved and that always leads to trouble.

Its a shame because as we all know it only takes the minority to stuff it up for everyone else, but in this case the minority are not simply doing burnouts in a car park.

Crucify the bastards I say, but you cant go blanketing all bikie gangs.

/awaits people defending known gangs with drug trading etc.

/I also acknowledge that the trouble gangs have good people within them aswell, they probably dress up in a Santa costume at Xmas but that doesn't make what the gang stands for and their activities right

**Elks** · 06-04-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

i was a member of Nunawading motorcross club and Ravenswood "MC" we used to congregate every sunday, ride our bikes, hang out... i bet some of the member broke the law too, so i guess i was a member of two "motorcycle gangs"...
..

I knew you were trouble

Matty4 · 06-04-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcxr

Cant see 'em banning Ulysses Motorcycle Club members either. Im sure there would also be some of their riders that have had convictions going back several decades or more. lol

Nor God's Squad either

4Vman · 06-04-2009, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myts

I knew you were trouble

Yes.. my gangs "Patch" was "FOX", the rival gang's patches were "THOR" and "SHIFT"...
There's a new "gang" in town now.. those damn "crusty" dudes...

SP.UTE1 · 06-04-2009, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myts

The proposed law is stupid. What consitutes 'outlaw'? What percentage of a club needs to be criminal to make a club outlaw. How do you stop this being abused? How do you in law differentiate Hells Angels MC from Ravenswood Junior Motorcross club??

If they have proof of some memebers of a club, any club commiting crimes put them in jail.

My favorite thing in all this is the "Outlaw Motorcyle Gang" from Sydney called Notorius,(or something like that) who apparently don't ride motorcylces they just drive cars. If that is OK, which car club is next? Falcon GT Club? Did one of them break the speed limit? Should we ban all GT's then or just punish the wrong doers.

The anti association laws will only come into play once a "club" has been declared a criminal organisation and declared illegal by that states Attorney General. This has happened in SA, where the Police Commisioner has applied to the Attorney General to have the Finks MC declared. If the club is declared, it hasn't happened yet, then members of that club will be warned not to associate with other members of that declared organisation. If members (of any declared organisation) are found guilty of associating together, they face 5 years in prison if convicted.
What ****es me off, is that any evidence submitted by the police to gain a conviction, can be submitted in secrect. The defendant and his/her legal representative has no right to view the evidence against them.

:
Where is the democracy in that?

I don't agree with a lot of stuff that the 1% clubs have been alledged to have done, but I will attend every prostest run, or sign any pettition to support the overturning of these laws.

And, the scary part is, that the laws don't mention Bikie Clubs, Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs, or any reference to motorcycles. So the States that bring in these laws can target any group or club they see fit.

Get informed, read the laws, and get behind any attempt to get these anti Australian laws crushed.

There are laws in place now to go after anyone breaking the law. It's just lazy policing to crush a whole group just because of a few bad apples.

WHEN INJUSTICE BECOMES LAW RESISTANCE BECOMES DUTY

balthazarr · 06-04-2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP.UTE1

The anti association laws will only come into play once a "club" has been declared a criminal organisation and declared illegal by that states Attorney General. This has happened in SA, where the Police Commisioner has applied to the Attorney General to have the Finks MC declared. If the club is declared, it hasn't happened yet, then members of that club will be warned not to associate with other members of that declared organisation. If members (of any declared organisation) are found guilty of associating together, they face 5 years in prison if convicted.
What ****es me off, is that any evidence submitted by the police to gain a conviction, can be submitted in secrect. The defendant and his/her legal representative has no right to view the evidence against them. :
Where is the democracy in that?

I don't agree with a lot of stuff that the 1% clubs have been alledged to have done, but I will attend every prostest run, or sign any pettition to support the overturning of these laws.

And, the scary part is, that the laws don't mention Bikie Clubs, Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs, or any reference to motorcycles. So the States that bring in these laws can target any group or club they see fit.

Get informed, read the laws, and get behind any attempt to get these anti Australian laws crushed.

There are laws in place now to go after anyone breaking the law. It's just lazy policing to crush a whole group just because of a few bad apples.

WHEN INJUSTICE BECOMES LAW RESISTANCE BECOMES DUTY

All other issues aside, this whole secrecy business is getting out of hand... if you're facing up to FIVE YEARS in prison, surely fairness and due process dictates that you have every opportunity to defend yourself?

BAFalconXT · 06-04-2009, 10:28 AM

If police did their job properly we wouldn't need these laws. These laws and others are just to make it easier for police to arrest and convict people with little to no evidence they have commited a crime.

No different with current speeding fines and parking fines where you are guilty until you can prove your innocence.

Also laws reguarding proceeds of crime, police can take everything you own and you have to try to prove how you obtained them.

flappist · 06-04-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP.UTE1

The anti association laws will only come into play once a "club" has been declared a criminal organisation and declared illegal by that states Attorney General. This has happened in SA, where the Police Commisioner has applied to the Attorney General to have the Finks MC declared. If the club is declared, it hasn't happened yet, then members of that club will be warned not to associate with other members of that declared organisation. If members (of any declared organisation) are found guilty of associating together, they face 5 years in prison if convicted.
What ****es me off, is that any evidence submitted by the police to gain a conviction, can be submitted in secrect. The defendant and his/her legal representative has no right to view the evidence against them.

:
Where is the democracy in that?

I don't agree with a lot of stuff that the 1% clubs have been alledged to have done, but I will attend every prostest run, or sign any pettition to support the overturning of these laws.

And, the scary part is, that the laws don't mention Bikie Clubs, Outlaw Motorcycle Clubs, or any reference to motorcycles. So the States that bring in these laws can target any group or club they see fit.

Get informed, read the laws, and get behind any attempt to get these anti Australian laws crushed.

There are laws in place now to go after anyone breaking the law. It's just lazy policing to crush a whole group just because of a few bad apples.

WHEN INJUSTICE BECOMES LAW RESISTANCE BECOMES DUTY

It is much easier than that. Just ban Harley Davidisons.

Only criminals and real estate agents own these two wheeled mechanical dinosaurs. They have push rods you know, like one quarter of an LS1 without the oil usage (it leaks out before it burns)

Black F6 · 06-04-2009, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

What's a "motorcycle gang"???

The ones that sell drugs, and think that they are above the law and can just shoot indiscriminately at each other without consequence.

And we all know the gangs they are talking about.

I dont think the law is right by banning these "groups", im sure there are adequate laws to break up these gangs, they just need to man up and do it.

4Vman · 06-04-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFXRScott

The ones that sell drugs, and think that they are above the law and can just shoot indiscriminately at each other without consequence.

And we all know the gangs they are talking about.

I dont think the law is right by banning these "groups", im sure there are adequate laws to break up these gangs, they just need to man up and do it.

Selling drugs and shooting people is already illegal and covered comprehensively by the current laws, the authorities need to focus on the application of the law to the individuals involved, not the social groups they may or may not belong to.
How can you prove in law that someone's a member of a gang anyway? its not like these groups keep records, have annual renewals or hand out membership medallions....

bluebloodxr8 · 06-04-2009, 01:18 PM

4vman is correct, the problem is that there are never any witnesses to the alleged criminal acts by bikies who are prepared to testify in court. scared of repercussions and rightfully so in some cases.
No witnesses makes it hard to get a conviction in court. so the guilty are more often than not free to walk, this cycle breeds a mentallity of being above the law, and so they have no fear of bashing a guy to death in the middle of an airport in broad daylight.
How can the government defend the civil rights of individauls, but not be able to put the criminal element in jail where they belong? not sure of the answer.

snappy · 06-04-2009, 01:41 PM

It would not matter if they could stop it . Somone else would take there place .
While there is a demand for the stuff there selling there will allways be somone thats going to sell it . Extasy use is growing at a huge rate last time i heard 200% in the last year or two .
Thats what i think is the real issue is demand fix the issue solve the problem .
Unfortunately to do that you would probly need to change the way a society functions.

Walt Kowalski · 06-04-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

It is much easier than that. Just ban Harley Davidisons.

Only criminals and real estate agents own these two wheeled mechanical dinosaurs.

I knew if I read this thread I'd get a good laugh.

Black F6 · 06-04-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Selling drugs and shooting people is already illegal and covered comprehensively by the current laws, the authorities need to focus on the application of the law to the individuals involved, not the social groups they may or may not belong to.
How can you prove in law that someone's a member of a gang anyway? its not like these groups keep records, have annual renewals or hand out membership medallions....

No, but they certainly do wear there colours, i can understand the point that they shouldnt be going against social groups, but if your group is law abiding then im sure you have nothing to worry about.

flappist · 06-04-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFXRScott

No, but they certainly do wear there colours, i can understand the point that they shouldnt be going against social groups, but if your group is law abiding then im sure you have nothing to worry about.

Well if you locked up ALL groups of people who travel in packs, wear the same colours showing their "coat of arms" and are involved in drugs, drunken violence, rape and general antisocial behavior then the prison service is going win a lot of grand finals and pennants.......

Walt Kowalski · 06-04-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Well if you locked up ALL groups of people who travel in packs, wear the same colours showing their "coat of arms" and are involved in drugs, drunken violence, rape and general antisocial behavior then the prison service is going win a lot of grand finals and pennants.......

How about some of my favourite footy teams?

4Vman · 06-04-2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFXRScott

No, but they certainly do wear there colours, i can understand the point that they shouldnt be going against social groups, but if your group is law abiding then im sure you have nothing to worry about.

You can buy "gang" supporter wear over the net.. "route 81", "fat mexican" etc... not full blown but you wont be confused about where your loyalty's lie.
"members" normally only wear their colors under certain circumstances..
I still can't see how they'd ever be able to identify club members over friends and family.... Only gang members know who is and isnt "in". and many "active" allies aren't even classified as "members"....

4Vman · 06-04-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Well if you locked up ALL groups of people who travel in packs, wear the same colours showing their "coat of arms" and are involved in drugs, drunken violence, rape and general antisocial behavior then the prison service is going win a lot of grand finals and pennants.......

Just look at Collingwood supporters: they all wear collingwood jumpers too and fit the profile well... hmm actually you make a good point!