buying a ring, certificate or registration

[Dustin_80]

If I am going to buy a ring and the jeweller says they can provide a cert of registration for it, is that a solid foundation for determining its real value?

[SEZ213]

When I got my engagement ring (and I assume that's what you might be talking about, or something similar), the price was included on the certificate that came with it...not the sale price of the item, but the RRP. Mostly for insurance purposes.

Obviously, the real value is only determinable by whoever is going to be wearing it...mine cost a bit, but is now priceless to me...

edit: yep, apparently I am a real girl after all...

[xisled]

Not sure what cert of registration is, it could have a valuation cert in it. But you need a valuation cert.

The valuation cert will show you exactly what the ring is, what metal it is made from and any gems that are attached to it. It will also have the description of what the gem is.

The example of the description will be 18ct Y/gold ring. .05ct princess cut diamond.

[Dustin_80]

thanks.
It is definitely a cert of registration for 'insurance purproses.'
The word 'valuation certitificate' was not used.

[XR6_661]

Don't do it!

[Dustin_80]

just checking in case others have heard of these things and know whether its worth the paper it's written on.

[Dustin_80]

Originally Posted by XR6_661

Don't do it!

I'll take your word for it...

[xisled]

I used to work in insurance in home and motor claims. You need a valuation cert. It needs to include a description of the item and it's value.

If these things are not shown on the cert and you need to replace it under insurance. The insurance company will have to guess from photos and what is on the cert. May not be 100 percent correct and you may not get what you had back.


The price you purchased for may not reflect the true value of the ring. I would get the ring valued at the jeweler of your choice.

With insurance, you usually need to get the ring valued every 3 or so years.

IMO you need to get the ring valued at a independent place, and have the ring actually valued with a cert. If you do not, then you may have trouble replacing it on insurance if you need to. Any jeweler could do a valuation cert cost around $50 bucks I think. I have come across times where the person has thought they have done the right thing, but what they had was not able to be used by the insurance company, and what the insurance company replaced it with was not what they had. Also make sure your ring is covered for loss, damage or theft for outside the house. If you have any quiestions you can ask here or PM me.

[trippytaka]

Definitely need one. I am buying a vintage art deco ring and theyb are even providing one for that!

[BA Baracus]

Definitely a good thing to have but you can specify insured amount without one with a lot of insurers. It will just be catered for in your premium like an agreed value on a car.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by xisled

I used to work in insurance in home and motor claims. You need a valuation cert. It needs to include a description of the item and it's value.

If these things are not shown on the cert and you need to replace it under insurance. The insurance company will have to guess from photos and what is on the cert. May not be 100 percent correct and you may not get what you had back.


The price you purchased for may not reflect the true value of the ring. I would get the ring valued at the jeweler of your choice.

With insurance, you usually need to get the ring valued every 3 or so years.

IMO you need to get the ring valued at a independent place, and have the ring actually valued with a cert. If you do not, then you may have trouble replacing it on insurance if you need to. Any jeweler could do a valuation cert cost around $50 bucks I think. I have come across times where the person has thought they have done the right thing, but what they had was not able to be used by the insurance company, and what the insurance company replaced it with was not what they had. Also make sure your ring is covered for loss, damage or theft for outside the house. If you have any quiestions you can ask here or PM me.

When I bought my wifes ring I had it included on the house and content insurance - they asked me what the ring cost and I informed them (it still appears seperately on a statment with the agreed value but I didnt supply any certificates)

[noosacuda]

Basically what XISLED said is correct- Valuations as such aren't a legal requirement, they are however required if you choose to insure them if the item is above your maximum claim allowable by your insurance company. A "proof of Purchase Certificate" is much the same. The value on a Valuation Certificate is the Full Retail Replacement Value of the item ie if you lost it and need another "handmade" replacement that is what it'd cost. If you come to sell the item expect to get at the most 1/4 (maybe 1/2 if selling privately) of the valuation.

[Thunder]

Perhaps your jeweller can offer you a comprehensive insurance cover on your ring?

Valuations certificates are an OPINION only! ie there is no "true" value of any item of jewellery. Certificates will vary from jeweller to jeweller, and there is no legal requirement to have any "qualifications" when writing a certificate.

Insurance companies don't even investigate or confirm the value on the certificate!

[xisled]

Originally Posted by SB076

When I bought my wifes ring I had it included on the house and content insurance - they asked me what the ring cost and I informed them (it still appears seperately on a statment with the agreed value but I didnt supply any certificates)

Yes, you do not need a valuation cert to insure the item, but when making a claim they will need it to get the correct value. You can insure an item for as much as you want, but what they give back at claim time may be different because if you can not prove the value, they will only give the value of the item that the insurance company thinks. Oh you may want to check if the item is covered outside the house. The reason I say this, most insurance company's have limits on jewelry and they ask you to put it separately on the policy with a value and will only be covered, under the insured events inside the home. You may not be covered for accidental loss, theft or damage outside the home. Usually it cost extra to have items listed for loss, damage and theft outside the house.

Originally Posted by Thunder

Perhaps your jeweller can offer you a comprehensive insurance cover on your ring?

Valuations certificates are an OPINION only! ie there is no "true" value of any item of jewellery. Certificates will vary from jeweller to jeweller, and there is no legal requirement to have any "qualifications" when writing a certificate.

Insurance companies don't even investigate or confirm the value on the certificate!

They may not do a investigation to confirm the value on the cert, but they use there own jeweler to check the value is correct against the description on the cert. I used to organize this with the jeweler when I worked in home claims.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by xisled

They may not do a investigation to confirm the value on the cert, but they use there own jeweler to check the value is correct against the description on the cert. I used to organize this with the jeweler when I worked in home claims.

Do "they use there own jeweller to check the value" before they work out the annual premium?, or do they only check this much later, such as when a claim is lodged?

[xisled]

They use there own jeweler when doing the claim.

Just for peoples info on how you can insure your jewelry on the policy and what you do to cover it outside the house.

Depends how you set the policy up, but the premium is usually based on the dollar amount, not what the item actually is. With a certain company it would cost about $35 odd dollars to insure $1000 worth of items outside the house, for loss, damage or theft.

So a ring that was worth 3k would be around $100 dollars to insure it for loss, damage or theft outside the house on top of your policy.

But with most company's specially with jewelry they have limit's on how much they will cover certain items on the policy under normal events. Such as fire or theft from the home. The limit may be $1000 per item and $5000 in total. So what you can do it specify items individually and it does not go against the limits on your policy and it will be shown as a separate item on the paper work. This usually does not cost anything to do. Premium would be same with it or not. But this does not cover it for loss, damage or theft away from home. This is where you add the extra cover to cover the items outside the house.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by xisled

....but the premium is usually based on the dollar amount, not what the item actually is. With a certain company it would cost about $35 odd dollars to insure $1000 worth of items outside the house, for loss, damage or theft.....

So is the premium 3.5% of the "certificate" value, or 3.5% of what was paid?

[xisled]

Originally Posted by Thunder

So is the premium 3.5% of the "certificate" value, or 3.5% of what was paid?

The premium is based on the dollar amount you tell the insurance company the item is worth and the insurance company will have it's own figures to work out what it would cost to cover the item for outside the home.

You can tell the insurance company the item is worth 1 million dollars, and they will charge you accordingly. All company's have different ways of working things out. My example was a very rough example and the figures may not be 100 per cent correct. It more of an example of how they work it out rather than the actual costing.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by xisled

The premium is based on the dollar amount you tell the insurance company the item is worth and the insurance company will have it's own figures to work out what it would cost.............

Yes, i understand that. Let me re-ask you my question through this example:

1. I buy a ring for $10,000.
2. I get a valuation certificate that says it worth $20,000.
3. I send a copy of the certificate to my insurance company, they insure the ring for $20,000, and my annual premium is say $750.
4. Ring goes missing.
5. I lodge a claim with my insurer and they approve the claim.
6. They send me back to the original place i purchased the ring to collect an exact replacement.
7. The jeweller charges the same price to the insurer that i paid originally ($10,000).

Do you see what i am alluding to? Is the "valuation" price simply a way of insurers charging more on premiums? And if not, then why don't they offer me a gift voucher or cheque for $20,000?

[xisled]

If you look at it that way, yes it is a way for insurance company's to charge more. But if you do not insure it for value you may be under insuring and at claim time risking not to get the item back. But the main aim for insurance company's is to replace the item and yes they get a huge discount on items and that is why they do not usually send a cheque because it cost them more. .

[noosacuda]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Yes, i understand that. Let me re-ask you my question through this example:

1. I buy a ring for $10,000.
2. I get a valuation certificate that says it worth $20,000.
3. I send a copy of the certificate to my insurance company, they insure the ring for $20,000, and my annual premium is say $750.
4. Ring goes missing.
5. I lodge a claim with my insurer and they approve the claim.
6. They send me back to the original place i purchased the ring to collect an exact replacement.
7. The jeweller charges the same price to the insurer that i paid originally ($10,000).

Do you see what i am alluding to? Is the "valuation" price simply a way of insurers charging more on premiums? And if not, then why don't they offer me a gift voucher or cheque for $20,000?

Sounds right, EXCEPT the insurance Co will tell you which is their "Preferred Jewellers" to go to and they (insurance co) screw the jewellers for a discount, using the excuse "we're a big insurance co,and if you want repeat business from us,we want a discount" So you get your replacement $20K ring and the insurance co pays the jewellers (eventually) their money.

[arm79]

The amount on a valuation certificate you get from any QUALIFIED LEGITIMATE VALUER is reflective of the pieces retail sales value, not the actual value if the piece itself.

The value of the piece itself will always be less, as the materials obviously dont include the cost of labour and store profit.

My father, a 42 year veteran of the handmade jewellery trade, has made many many rings that have doubled (sometimes more) in value when the valuation certificate is done. And the entire trade knows that the valuation certificate value is largely inflated over the actual materials cost price.

For example, dad makes a ring and the materials cost $10,000. He decides to make a 20% profit for his time and effort, so he charges his client $12,000. My dad being a wholesale/private jeweller sends the ring to an independant valuer for inspection. The value comes back at say $22,000, and this is what it should be insured for.

Reason being, if dad made this ring at the request of a retail store, he would charge the store $12k still, but the store (like all large chains) would typically add a 100% profit markup to the piece. You would be paying $22k for the piece from a Bevilles or Zamels or Hoskings or Tiffanys, etc, etc.

If you were to loose the ring and claim on insurance, my dad would happily make it again for $12k. But if he decided to retire or didn't want to, and you were forced to goto a retail store, the $12k would get you half of what you had. You'd need a near $22k insurance value to get the same thing back. Obviously the insurance company would negotiate with the store, but the end result is if it isn't insured for enough, you don't get back what you've lost. ie, less gold, smaller stones, lesser quality stones, etc, etc.

From memory his best effort was a $47,000 engagement ring for a young investment banker that had a valuation of $96,000. I dunno how this chick was able wear a ring that heavy and not be scared about losing it.

Simply most of the inflation in price is in the labour and profit margin for the store, and people forget that when insuring things like this.

[GT]

Originally Posted by arm79

The amount on a valuation certificate you get from any QUALIFIED LEGITIMATE VALUER is reflective of the pieces retail sales value, not the actual value if the piece itself.

The value of the piece itself will always be less, as the materials obviously dont include the cost of labour and store profit.

My father, a 42 year veteran of the handmade jewellery trade, has made many many rings that have doubled (sometimes more) in value when the valuation certificate is done. And the entire trade knows that the valuation certificate value is largely inflated over the actual materials cost price.

For example, dad makes a ring and the materials cost $10,000. He decides to make a 20% profit for his time and effort, so he charges his client $12,000. My dad being a wholesale/private jeweller sends the ring to an independant valuer for inspection. The value comes back at say $22,000, and this is what it should be insured for.

Reason being, if dad made this ring at the request of a retail store, he would charge the store $12k still, but the store (like all large chains) would typically add a 100% profit markup to the piece. You would be paying $22k for the piece from a Bevilles or Zamels or Hoskings or Tiffanys, etc, etc.

If you were to loose the ring and claim on insurance, my dad would happily make it again for $12k. But if he decided to retire or didn't want to, and you were forced to goto a retail store, the $12k would get you half of what you had. You'd need a near $22k insurance value to get the same thing back. Obviously the insurance company would negotiate with the store, but the end result is if it isn't insured for enough, you don't get back what you've lost. ie, less gold, smaller stones, lesser quality stones, etc, etc.

From memory his best effort was a $47,000 engagement ring for a young investment banker that had a valuation of $96,000. I dunno how this chick was able wear a ring that heavy and not be scared about losing it.

Simply most of the inflation in price is in the labour and profit margin for the store, and people forget that when insuring things like this.

Absolutely the best post in the thread and exactly the correct information.
No matter what you buy, get an INDEPENDENT Valuation (there are people that do nothing else and the laws are strict with them) on the ring BEFORE you pay for it just to make sure you are in fact getting value for your money. If you are spending $1000 it is less important but $10K is getting serious so be careful.

You will also find that independent small privately owned Jeweller Workshops do superior work and are very competitive and better value for money.

Cheers
Gaela

[arm79]

Originally Posted by GT

Absolutely the best post in the thread and exactly the correct information.

hahaha... Many thanks... My dad would be stupidly proud that I actually listened to something he's told me.

As the son of a family of jewellers, I have no jewellery at all, not even a chain.. It does disappoint them. lol

But like you said, spending $1k retail or less, valuations aren't required, as the materials costs are very low, are generally cast and quickly thrown together.

Spending much more, its definitely worth it. Only a very trained eye can tell the difference between a $5k and $2k diamond of same size. Either a trained eye or a well trained woman actually, if my mother is any gauge... lol

Oh, and a free plug for my dad. He works out of Hervey Bay (not Melbourne anymore) and in most cases its cheaper to fly there and back to design and pickup something than it is to buy something in a major store... Or he does email quotes and well insured mail deliveries to get his stuff around Australia.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by arm79

The amount on a valuation certificate you get from any QUALIFIED LEGITIMATE VALUER is reflective of the pieces retail sales value, not the actual value if the piece itself.........

Unfortunately, insurance companies do not require your certificate to be from:

- a valuer.
- a registered valuer.
- a jeweller.
- a qualified jeweller.
- a jewellery association member.

They only require the "certificate" to be from a "jewellery store" with an ABN!!!!!

I own a jewellery store. I manufacture my own jewellery. I am a metal-smith with training and qualifications. I am the third generation of a family with long history in the jewellery industry. I am a member of the JAA (Jewellers Association of Australia). I am constantly asked to investigate jewellery cases presented before the department of Fair Trading. I am constantly in contact with the JAA and a regular contributor to our industry info-magazine "Jeweller".

And i have been banging my head against a wall with the long running scam insurance companies have been pulling over jewellery buyers.

The current system is ridiculous, unfair and down-right dishonest. It also highlights significant service failures with inexperienced and unqualified people selling "jewellery" and making valuations worthless. I see on a weekly basis rings that come with over-inflated valuations.

This is the exact reason i now provide my own comprehensive insurance policy on my diamond rings. I don't need to provide a "certificate" instead i provide a policy that proves the value and worth of my jewellery. My customers are covered for full replacement, new for old, regardless of changes in market conditions or "value".

To get a REAL certificate, your first have to BUY the ring, LEAVE the store, then find a REGISTERED VALUER! So what do you do when the valuer tells you its not worth as much as you expected, well after you left the store? Its a hell of a lot harder to seek a recourse after you accept/collect an item.

[GT]

Originally Posted by Thunder

I own a jewellery store. I manufacture my own jewellery. I am a metal-smith with training and qualifications.

Now you tell us! Could have done with that recently.
We need to have an addition to our Registration System - are you a Plumber, Sparky, Builder or Jeweller? We all need at least one of these in our lives.

Cheers
Gaela

[noosacuda]

WOW! And i thought I was the only jeweller on here! Good one guys,i'm not alone!
But as said previously, valuations aren't worth the paper they're written on, i used to do them and still do sometimes,but i have enough repair work to keep me busy in Bundy.

[GT]

Any of you in Victoria?

GT

[SEZ213]

Ahah! I'm in heaven! I now know where to go when I want my ring redesigned! And you're all the right spot!