Aussie car bashing

[jphanna]

Why is there a perception that aussie built cars are lacking in quality? Is this just aimed at Holden and Ford, because aussie built Toyotas never had a problem with quality.

If there is a problem, is it the design and manufacture of the individual components or the actual process of assembly that’s letting SOME aussie built cars down?

What about the decades of crap quality cars coming out of Italy, England, Korea and USA? Is it only the Japs and Germans that have the good reputation for quality?

[AUIIForte]

My perception on Aussie cars, particularly the new Falcons and also Commodores, are that they a great quality car. I just cant find another car for the same price range as these Aussie built cars with as much standard of quality.

I think its mostly just the image people get when they think of Ford or Holden. I mean, Honda, Toyota, VW, and many many other car companies have really good, high quality advertisements that just scream of quality and prestige. Where as with Holden and Ford its always seemed to be targeted at the tough guy bogan.

Until now, I seem to believe that ford are now realising this and starting to make adds aimed at another broader audience, if you know what I mean.

[vztrt]

Aussie cars are getting better (look at the FG compared to the B-series). If they survive then they will continue to get better.
Unfortunately for the Falcon it has a very small budget compared to cars it competes with. (WCOTY spent 2 billion on their cars while the FG had less then a billion)
This is the reason why you want the Falcon to go O/S to more markets. If the R&D costs can be spread out more then it would be worth to spend more money on the car. FoA do a great job with the little money they get so if they had twice the budget then it would really make people stand up and take notice.

[Powdered Toast Man]

I think some of the aussie build quality reputation is based on the parent companies American build quality.

Personally I think aussie cars are well built, but they were built better about 10 - 15 years ago compared to now (not sure on the FG). Compared to my BA my previous EF was built to much higher standards, even the EA I had was better in some regards (not many though lol).

Like vztrt mentioned I believe it all comes down to manufacturig budget. Ford Oz and Holden do a great job with the measly budgets they have, especially Ford.

The Europeans seem to have better material and build quality, not sure why. Also when people think european they are thinking German (merc, BMW, Audi, VW) and not Italian, French etc. But the Japanese really have their manufacturing processes and management practices so well polished that they make fewer errors.

[4Vman]

The BIGGEST let down i've found with our cars is the quality of the plastics used, and their ability to hold shape, or just "fit" correctly...
European cars seem in general to have a higher standard of finish in this regard.

[jphanna]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The BIGGEST let down i've found with our cars is the quality of the plastics used, and their ability to hold shape, or just "fit" correctly...
European cars seem in general to have a higher standard of finish in this regard.

just taking an uneducated guess, but has 'our' plastics quality got anything to do with our harsh climate and maybe it withstands it better than the 'better' euro stuff.

bottom line, is a German/Jap/pommy/euro car parked in an unprotected driveway, or street, in any better condition than an Aussie built car after 10-15 years?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by jphanna

just taking an uneducated guess, but has 'our' plastics quality got anything to do with our harsh climate and maybe it withstands it better than the 'better' euro stuff.

bottom line, is a German/Jap/pommy/euro car parked in an unprotected driveway, or street, in any better condition than an Aussie built car after 10-15 years?

Nope, its costs of design/CAD time, tooling, materials etc....

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The BIGGEST let down i've found with our cars is the quality of the plastics used, and their ability to hold shape, or just "fit" correctly...
European cars seem in general to have a higher standard of finish in this regard.

mate a massive part of this problem is the climate, sunlight destroys the chemical bonds in plastic weakening and softening it, couple that with the massive amount of heat that builds in the cabins in Australian sun its a two prong plastic killer, with cabin temperatures high enough to severely soften plastic, with cabin temps in the 50's this is also plenty enough heat to soften it. Trust me this is nothing new. I have seen porsches only a couple of years old and the interior is screwed plastic worn and discolored and misshapen, seats just looking like they are 30 years old. It is very difficult to get plastics that are able to withstand the conditions here.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

mate a massive part of this problem is the climate, sunlight destroys the chemical bonds in plastic weakening and softening it, couple that with the massive amount of heat that builds in the cabins in Australian sun its a two prong plastic killer, with cabin temperatures high enough to severely soften plastic, with cabin temps in the 50's this is also plenty enough heat to soften it. Trust me this is nothing new. I have seen porsches only a couple of years old and the interior is screwed plastic worn and discolored and misshapen, seats just looking like they are 30 years old. It is very difficult to get plastics that are able to withstand the conditions here.

Ive worked very closely with the main suppliers of plastic components to the car manufacturers here, they'll happily tell you they can make far better quality components that fit and last far better than they currently supply, but it comes at a cost, when the car companies will squeeze, haggle, bludgeon suppliers over cents in a part price every bit of savings counts....

[Green X]

People see a 3 series BMW or a Audi A4 or something and think it's a Top end Euro car, it isn't they are the Buz box models, it's like buying a XT falcon.

Guy i worked with was looking at a Audi cause he always like em Mid Spec A4 i think cause that was in his price range. Had a look at that and a 07 FPV Force 8, walked away bitterly disappointed in the Audi. Loved the Force 8, but ya know what the problem is people will see a force 8 and a A4 and say the A4's the better car simply cause it's a Euro

You say you dive a Falcon and allot of people look at you like oh a Ford, don't matter that it will blow the paint off there 3 series sitting in the parking lot.

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ive worked very closely with the main suppliers of plastic components to the car manufacturers here, they'll happily tell you they can make far better quality components that fit and last far better than they currently supply, but it comes at a cost, when the car companies will squeeze, haggle, bludgeon suppliers over cents in a part price every bit of savings counts....

I agree here any car can be made better, using higher quality raw materials BUT what happens then is it blows out the cost of the finished product, making it unaffordable to the regular person, could you afford to pay 200k for a g series, built by a manufacturer who has a "cost is no concern" attitude when building it? Yes it will use the best materials and hence last a long time but what they currently use seems sufficient to last 30 years, who buys a new car and drives it for more than 30 years, very very few.

[cheek]

Originally Posted by Green X

People see a 3 series BMW or a Audi A4 or something and think it's a Top end Euro car, it isn't they are the Buz box models, it's like buying a XT falcon.

Guy i worked with was looking at a Audi cause he always like em Mid Spec A4 i think cause that was in his price range. Had a look at that and a 07 FPV Force 8, walked away bitterly disappointed in the Audi. Loved the Force 8, but ya know what the problem is people will see a force 8 and a A4 and say the A4's the better car simply cause it's a Euro

You say you dive a Falcon and allot of people look at you like oh a Ford, don't matter that it will blow the paint off there 3 series sitting in the parking lot.

EXACTLY!!!

[flappist]

I own/have owned lots of recent Fords, Toyotas, Nissans and Hyundais. Only one of these marques spend lots of time off the road with warranty claims. Guess which one?

Last 10 years (or so): Fords: 11, Nissans 3, Toyotas, 5, Hyundais, 1, Holdens 0

[SB076]

I think because more people in Oz have previously owned a Ford or holden that there is a greater chance they might have incurred a dud and as such they have a preception that all cars made by X are of poor quality.

Most manufacturers have issues, its how you deal with those issues. I know someone that bought an S class benz when I bought my GT and I copped a bit of flack for buying an "unrelaible car" Well the S class has had that many issues and been picked up on flat top etc, where as the GT has been good. Not many people buy a S class benz so you hear less complaints. I have other friends that have had similar issues with WRX's (in the first month one of them spent more time in the work shop being looked at then driven) Also remember reading horror stories in the press on a VW that was painted lemon yellow by its owner and focus that had stickers stuck all over the back of it.

But some on these forums have had horror stories with Ford Oz and and that would be incredibly frustrating.

Edit: Just received an email from a mate with a beamer and he isnt happy

[Chilla]

quality in a vehicle is not only down to fit, and finish. Mechanical strength, reliability, safety, value for money, all play their part. A true test of what constitutes a well built car would be to bring back the likes of the Hardie Ferodo and Bob Jane 1000 races at bathurst for 'stock standard cars'. Have them circuit bathurst in exactly the guise they leave the showroom. I.E. Tyres, brakes,lubricants, and ancillary equipment.
I would think there would likely be a few surprises for all motor enthusiasts. It would certainly show up strenghths and weaknesses in all marques. Be they Aussie or import.

[cheek]

Originally Posted by SB076

I think because more people in Oz have previously owned a Ford or holden that there is a greater chance they might have incurred a dud and as such they have a preception that all cars made by X are of poor quality.

Most manufacturers have issues, its how you deal with those issues. I know someone that bought an S class benz when I bought my GT and I copped a bit of flack for buying an "unrelaible car" Well the S class has had that many issues and been picked up on flat top etc, where as the GT has been good. Not many people buy a S class benz so you hear less complaints. I have other friends that have had similar issues with WRX's (in the first month one of them spent more time in the work shop being looked at then driven) Also remember reading horror stories in the press on a VW that was painted lemon yellow by its owner and focus that had stickers stuck all over the back of it.

But some on these forums have had horror stories with Ford Oz and and that would be incredibly frustrating.

and also the majority of people who buy these type of cars wouldnt like to admit theyv spent $50,000 Upwards on a lemon!!!

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by flappist

I own/have owned lots of recent Fords, Toyotas, Nissans and Hyundais. Only one of these marques spend lots of time off the road with warranty claims. Guess which one?

Last 10 years (or so): Fords: 11, Nissans 3, Toyotas, 5, Hyundais, 1, Holdens 0

Which one?

The Australian conditions cannot be the reason why the plastics in Fords and Holdens fit incorrectly and look shabby. If the Australian conditions were solely to blame then BMW's, Merc's Toyota etc that are subjected to the same Australian conditions would have similar fit and finish problems.

The Ford's and Holdens I have driven for work and owned do seem to have issues with the fit and finish of interior trim. Perhaps its the one area Ford and Holden think they can make some cost savings but it is probably the first area of a car noticed if there are any quality issues. Its the part of the car people have most contact with and are more likely to notice. Nearly everyone knows what bad trim quality or fitment looks like but how many would be able to notice a poor electrical system. For the average punter a big part of the quality feel of the car comes from the interior IMO.

I would think the VE and FG models prove that Aussies make darn good cars and when you consider their budgets they are pretty hard to beat. The FG would be a hit in America on all counts, but the chances of exporting it to America are non existent.

[nugget378]

The Japanese cars have there problems, the new hilux for instance is the worst POS ever to carry the name IMO, nothing but trouble for me, one thing after another, and who could forget the quality of the early magna's..

[Rev28K]

Originally Posted by Chilla

quality in a vehicle is not only down to fit, and finish. Mechanical strength, reliability, safety, value for money, all play their part. A true test of what constitutes a well built car would be to bring back the likes of the Hardie Ferodo and Bob Jane 1000 races at bathurst for 'stock standard cars'. Have them circuit bathurst in exactly the guise they leave the showroom. I.E. Tyres, brakes,lubricants, and ancillary equipment.
I would think there would likely be a few surprises for all motor enthusiasts. It would certainly show up strenghths and weaknesses in all marques. Be they Aussie or import.

My current Honda has around 40 track days under it’s belt and is still going strong, my old CRX (bought second hand) did over 30 track days and was very reliable before it was written off. Look after the car (regular servicing by good mechanics) and it will look after you. I’ve got a few old Jap cars at the moment and their standard of finish and presentation is pretty good.

I’ll be looking at a tow car soon and may end up taking a “risk” and getting a new local model. Why? Because they offer great value for money (and it’s easier to get more power from them). The fit and finish looks a bit ropey in some of them (i.e. Ford’s leather seats in the Falcons looks a bit cheap) but I can put up with it for the cheap price as long as the mechanical components are reliable. While I don’t think the locals are quite at the level of finish and engineering as the best imports the difference in quality isn’t reflected in the price difference.

[Kamshaaft]

I've never heard of Aussie cars being anywhere near poor quality, other than the turn of the decade (into the 90's) where all the car manufacturers were making unreliable heaps of ****.

[Jondalar]

Green X has it pretty right, there's much "snob appeal" to the Euro's. Of course some 3 series are totally top spec. I've been there myself, but it was also partly that Ford in Australia thought we didn't need technology, how long after BMW did they introduce traction control for example. I am a big fan of current Ford's but they partly brought the public's attitude upon themselves by resisting new technologies. They have more than rectified this because in my view the FG has considerably advanced technology over the Commodore, but they have not really advertised this. Quality is still not quite there, as has been said the plastic fit could be a little better.

[Dave_au]

A better question to ask that goes beyond manufacturers:

Why are the Euro Fords, or even the South African built Fords generally of a better quality than the Falcon or Territory?

[jphanna]

That is a good question for sure.

i would like to know why my VE 'loses' its ventlation system from time to time when i switch it on. no air, no fan nothing, switch engine off and and again and its all fine again....another problem was to get in and the message on the panel says go back to dealer asap with a big X flashing. turn engine off and it's ok again....

it doesnt happen every month, but the fact that it happens means hassles later.

whats worse interior rattles and poor fit...or shonky electrics.

[buickman]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

A better question to ask that goes beyond manufacturers:

Why are the Euro Fords, or even the South African built Fords generally of a better quality than the Falcon or Territory?

A South African built Ford better quality than Aussie I beg to differ.
But Aussie cars are cheaper for parts and are more suited to our conditions.
Now way would I buy a car from South Africa including the Focus and Corolla.

[eb2fairmont]

Its dealers and the moronic servicing costs. like 100 bucks for a vz waterpump, 600 bucks to service an eb falcon, and being treated like an idiot that did it for me.

So I now drive a Volkswagen golf diesel. If ford had a falcon diesel I'd look at it.

In the meantime i'm happy playing with my project XF ute.

[CAMS290]

Correct me if i am wrong, but are some 3 series BMW's are made in South Africa for the Australian market ?

[DanielXR8]

Part of the problem with Ford and Holden is that their corporate attitude is an American one. In the end the dollar is more important then how we feel about the brand. Ford in particular are real penny pinchers at times. They save a dollar here or there in production and do something that causes frustration or really takes the shine of a fundamentally good product. Sure that means they can ship more dollars to the states that year, but what harm does it do the brand and the ownership experience? The truth is for many years, no one really cared what the answer was. As long as fleets and a shrinking private buyer market, bought the cars, then it was business as usual.

Everyone can point to a model they have owned that was underdone engineering wise in some way or could have been much better car for only a few dollars to Ford when they built and designed the car. Ford has never placed any real value in trying to retain customers by surprising them with the ownership experience. To be fair they seem to be slowly realising that now, but it might already be to late to turn that perception around in the market.

When engineering or quality faults are found in cars they react far too slowly or simply ignore it. Making a running change or waiting until the next model, is NOT a fix for existing customers. Fobbing off existing customers for months while you search for the cheapest solution, instead of the fastest and best one, doesn't win you fans either. Not recalling cars because you are scared of the harm to the brand and instead, expecting a very shoddy dealer network to cover your ****, is frankly plain stupid too. Ford has never got that. Basically Aussie cars didn't get a bad rap overnight. They earn't it over years of taking the easy way out and it will basically take years to disown that reputation.

I can't comment on the FG series Falcon, but there was far too many faults in Terri and BA/BF Falcons for Ford to have any other outcome but a dent of their reputation and lost future sales. The BA and Terri bought a lot of customers through the Ford dealership door, who hadn't been there in years. They had a unsatisfactory experience with the ownership of a Ford, sold the car and moved on to another brand again. Its highly unlikely these people will ever return to the brand in the future too. Again Ford just didn't get it that they had a second chance and thats it for these customers, not a third, fourth etc or however many it took to get a car that did what was advertised. Combine the corporate problems in how to make cars, retain customers and the problems with the dealers and you have a combination that sends many away from the brand for good.

Holden are not dissimilar in any way to this. I still recall the appalling way Commodore V8 owners were treated when those motors had problems. Many of the current VE issues are not satisfactory in how they are being dealt with either.

At the end of the day there is a fundamental difference in how American and Japanese car executives think about the market. Americans think about the next five years if you are lucky. Basically until their next posting. Japanese brands thought about building a brand over decades. They won.

Now the Koreans are learning from the Japanese.

[XR6_190]

It is Impossible to answer this question with only 1 explanation. Here are what I think are the reasons for this widespread belief:

STEREOTYPE:
Most people think European, and automatically think, brilliant car, and this isn't just the germans we're talking about, most people hear the names Peugeot, or Renault, or even Volvo, and automatically they are thinking superior car, yet in Europe, these vehicles are considered low rent compared to the equivalent BMW or Benz.
Then there are the Japanese, mainly Honda, Mazda, and especially Toyota. People think Japanese, and they think reliable, faultless, etc. Yet when Ford or Holden are put into the mix, there isn't any of these stereotypical attractions, it's just simply a Ford or Holden.

DEALERSHIP/ SERVICE CENTERS:
Now this is more of a generalization, as there are some great Ford dealers out there, and some really shabby Honda or Mercedes Dealers out there. But on the whole Ford and Holden dealers, are too unreliable, between the poorly product educated sales persons, and the rude and unprofessional service staff, the locals give themselves a bad reputation, so it isn't necessarily the cars fault.

CHEAP MATERIALS:
This doesn't necessarily limit itself to the interior plastics, but there is also the quality of steels used, (relatively new cars shouldn't rust, I'm looking at you Territory) and the quality of paints used, honestly the paint on new falcons and commodores is far too thin. Then of course there is always the Interior plastics.

CHEAPING OUT ON NEW MODELS:
This is a bit petty I know, but things like carry over Wheel designs on all new models, and not getting current basics ready for a new release. I like ,most people hate the media banging on about the FG not having standard curtain airbags, but if they had them, than there would be no complaining.

There are a few other smaller things, but I think these are the basics. I don't blame Ford Australia, or GMH, but their North American parents, but the OP wasn't asking WHO was to blame, but rather WHAT was to blame, and I think htese are the biggest factors.

[snappy]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Part of the problem with Ford and Holden is that their corporate attitude is an American one. In the end the dollar is more important then how we feel about the brand. Ford in particular are real penny pinchers at times. They save a dollar here or there in production and do something that causes frustration or really takes the shine of a fundamentally good product. Sure that means they can ship more dollars to the states that year, but what harm does it do the brand and the ownership experience? The truth is for many years, no one really cared what the answer was. As long as fleets and a shrinking private buyer market, bought the cars, then it was business as usual.

Everyone can point to a model they have owned that was underdone engineering wise in some way or could have been much better car for only a few dollars to Ford when they built and designed the car. Ford has never placed any real value in trying to retain customers by surprising them with the ownership experience. To be fair they seem to be slowly realising that now, but it might already be to late to turn that perception around in the market.

When engineering or quality faults are found in cars they react far too slowly or simply ignore it. Making a running change or waiting until the next model, is NOT a fix for existing customers. Fobbing off existing customers for months while you search for the cheapest solution, instead of the fastest and best one, doesn't win you fans either. Not recalling cars because you are scared of the harm to the brand and instead, expecting a very shoddy dealer network to cover your ****, is frankly plain stupid too. Ford has never got that. Basically Aussie cars didn't get a bad rap overnight. They earn't it over years of taking the easy way out and it will basically take years to disown that reputation.

I can't comment on the FG series Falcon, but there was far too many faults in Terri and BA/BF Falcons for Ford to have any other outcome but a dent of their reputation and lost future sales. The BA and Terri bought a lot of customers through the Ford dealership door, who hadn't been there in years. They had a unsatisfactory experience with the ownership of a Ford, sold the car and moved on to another brand again. Its highly unlikely these people will ever return to the brand in the future too. Again Ford just didn't get it that they had a second chance and thats it for these customers, not a third, fourth etc or however many it took to get a car that did what was advertised. Combine the corporate problems in how to make cars, retain customers and the problems with the dealers and you have a combination that sends many away from the brand for good.

Holden are not dissimilar in any way to this. I still recall the appalling way Commodore V8 owners were treated when those motors had problems. Many of the current VE issues are not satisfactory in how they are being dealt with either.

At the end of the day there is a fundamental difference in how American and Japanese car executives think about the market. Americans think about the next five years if you are lucky. Basically until their next posting. Japanese brands thought about building a brand over decades. They won.

Now the Koreans are learning from the Japanese.

Does not get much closer to the truth than this.
Well said Danny

[schnoods]

I reckon alot of perception generally went to alot of older cars when they were around and were a bit rough. Technology these days is so much better on all car fronts so comparing apples with apples is harder, especially price wise.

Though i gotta admit, the first time i drove an EA i was disgusted as at the time i owned a 220s Merc (1966). The doors closed without slamming compared to the falcon, the falcon had on 3 speed (the merc had a 4 speed auto in 66) steering was heavy on the falcon etc.

But driving a BF as well as a VE, the gap has closed a helluva lot.