Air France Flight missing over the Atlantic

[RG]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574...00-401,00.html

Originally Posted by News.com.au

AT least 228 people are believed dead after a catastrophic failure on board an Air France plane over the Atlantic Ocean.

Anxious families gathering at airports in Paris and Brazil have been told any hope of survival is slim.

The Airbus A330 overnight service from Rio de Janeiro to Paris suffered multiple technical failures before crashing into the Atlantic, the airline's chief executive said today.

"A succession of a dozen technical messages" sent by the aircraft around 2.15am GMT (10:15pm AEST) showed that "several electrical systems had broken down" which caused a "totally unprecedented situation in the plane," said Pierre-Henry Gourgeon said.

"It is probable that it was shortly after these messages that the impact in the Atlantic came."

Mr Gourgeon said that military planes had narrowed down their search area to a zone of a few dozen nautical miles half-way between Brazil and west Africa. Three Brazilian navy ships are on their way to assist in the search.

Relatives of those on board the flight raced to Rio de Janeiro's airport, numb with shock and disbelief at the certain tragedy that had befallen their loved ones.

Bernado, one of the first to arrive at the city's airport, had despair edging into his voice as he explained his brother and sister-in-law where on the missing Airbus.

"I called Air France right away, and they told me they didn't have information. That's why I decided to come to the airport," he said, declining to give his last name.

Vasti Ester van Sluijs, said she had jumped into a taxi as soon as she heard her daughter's flight - had disappeared from the radar over the Atlantic Ocean.

"My daughter Adriana Francesca was on the plane," she said, shocked.

Her daughter had been on her way to Paris for a connecting flight to Seoul, for business, she said.

In Paris distraught relatives were ushered into a cordoned-off area of the main terminal at Rio at Charles de Gaulle airport, expecting the worse after officials said flight AF447 appeared to have had an electrical failure.

Uniformed teams from Air France and the airport manning the desk refused to say how they had broken news to the relatives.

At a refreshment stand in the arrivals hall, waitresses said they had served a couple in tears.

Shortly afterwards, two young women, their eyes swollen with weeping, brushed away questions by reporters, one of them saying: "Now is not the time."

France's minister in charge of transport, Jean-Louis Borloo, said there was a "real pessimism at this hour'' about the fate of the aircraft.

"We can fear the worst," he said on Europe-1 radio.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy expressed his "extreme worry'' and went to Charles de Gaulle to meet relatives awaiting news of their loved ones. "We have no exact idea what happened. It's a catastrophe the likes of which Air France has never seen," he said.

"We have come to meet the families who are extremely dignified and courageous. Everyone can well imagine what a mother who lost her daughter, a fiancee who lost her future husband, are thinking.

"I told them the truth, which is that the prospects of finding any survivors are very slim."

Airbus said the A330 has a good safety record, with no fatalities ever on a commercial flight. One did crash in 1994 during a test flight in southern France, however, killing seven people on board.

In October last year a computer glitch caused a Qantas A330 to climb before nose diving over Western Australia injuring dozens of passengers.

In November 2007 six people were injured in a "depressurisation incident" during the test flight of an Airbus A330 to be delivered to Air Mauritius.

May god be with all souls on board. My thoughts are with the families and friends of the victims.

[BIGJB]

What a tragedy for all involved.
RIP all on the flight.

"I told them the truth, which is that the prospects of finding any survivors are very slim."

It's good to see they are being honest about it and not sugar coating it as you would expect.

[red_october]

I cant' believe it can just fall out of the sky. It's a sad day for aviation.

[Danny]

I'm shocked by this being an Aviation Nut myself and being an AVID fan of Air crash Investigations.



I travelled on an A330 to Thailand earlier this year, and the plane was grounded for technical difficulty for a good 6 hours, and the takeoff and flight was a little hairy back to Australia so ever since I've been somewhat inquisitive of A330's history since its introduction in the mid 90's.

I'm at a loss here to understand how such a modern Airliner (It was inducted into Air France fleet in 2005), inexplicably goes down whilst at cruising altitude.

They have radar systems to avoid storms, and are built to withstand turbulence AND lightning strikes. Two Lufthansa Flights flew through the same area before and after the A330 Disappeared. I'm absolutely at a loss as to how or why this has happened to such a new modern aircraft with no commercial fatalities to date. Tragic.



This is a photo of the Airbus A330 Involved. It was relatively new, F-GZCP is its registration number. My sympathies go out to all involved. Lets hope they find its location asap, and get the investigation underway so as to find the cause of this terrible inexplicable tragedy.

[Geez Louise]

How tragic! I didnt even hear about this till now. Thanks for posting RG.

R.I.P those onboard. My thoughts are with the families waiting for news. Sad day indeed :(

[Sam_Boss260]

Very sad day indeed.

RIP to all those on the flight.

[blueoval]

Thats horrible news. I feel for the families who had loved ones on that flight

[Pinch]

Originally Posted by RG

May god be with all souls on board. My thoughts are with the families and friends of the victims.

Hear, here.

I honestly felt sick about it this morning. I suppose we can only hope that it was all over quickly as horrible as even that sounds. I can't imagine what the families are going through.

Air travel is probably still much safer statistically than car travel. But even then I had a sick feeling when I read the article about the innocent passenger killed in a 200SX when T-boned by a stolen taxi in Sydney this morning. Just regular people going about their lives. A horrible news day.

That's intersting about your experiences Danny. I have 4 flights on A330's lined up in the next 2 months. Have flown a few times before and no issues though.

[DJM83]

Goes to show you that we cant always rely on computers

RIP to all on board

[aye you]

for a modern airliner to suddenly disappear, without any contact from the flight crew leads me to believe a sudden structural failure on the airframe. Sadly it will be many years before the cause of this accident is discovered.


RIP to all those on board. My heart goes out to the family of those missing.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by aye you

for a modern airliner to suddenly disappear, without any contact from the flight crew leads me to believe a sudden structural failure of the airframe.

Most likely correct, an in flight breakup at this stage is a very real possibility, the plane sent an automatic distress signal indicating electrical malfunction and also cabin depressirisation.

[Yellow_Festiva]

I had not an ounce of sleep last night after reading about this on the net.

A good French friend of mine, who I lived with for a year in Sydney up until a few years ago is an air hostess with Air France. I just saw her a few months ago when she returned to Sydney for a visit.

She told me all about her job, and remembering that she mentioned she had been to Rio de Janeiro several times. She is based in Paris.

After sending a post to her on FB as well a sms (phone off...) she finally got back to me this morning saying she was not on that flight thank God.

I feel for the people that lost loved ones. What I went through in one night they will endure for a very long time to come.

[old_mate]

never a big fan of fly by wire with little redundancy, will be interesting to see the outcome

RIP to all

[dave351cid]

was just on the abc news that a brazilian search plane has just spotted some debry floating in the ocean. mainly seats.

a terribly thing to happen and would be devistating for friends and famillys.

atleast if they have found the general area now they can concentrate the search a bit more and hopefully recover the black box so that they know what happened.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by old_mate

never a big fan of fly by wire with little redundancy, will be interesting to see the outcome

RIP to all

This may be true, however I'm still big on the opinion that Airbus make the safest planes in the world. where Boeing simply upgrade their aging planes with an "ER" on the end of the Model Number, Airbuses continuing development of noticeably newer safer smoother quieter Aircraft is put simply, the pride of european engineering.

I will always feel safer jumping onto an Airbus Industrie Aircraft, than a Boeing.

[Jason[98.EL]]

my thoughts go out to the families and freinds of those lost in this tragedy

R.I.P those on board

Jason & Helen

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Danny

This may be true, however I'm still big on the opinion that Airbus make the safest planes in the world. where Boeing simply upgrade their aging planes with an "ER" on the end of the Model Number, Airbuses continuing development of noticeably newer safer smoother quieter Aircraft is put simply, the pride of european engineering.

I will always feel safer jumping onto an Airbus Industrie Aircraft, than a Boeing.

**EDITED** Have a look at the A320 which executed a missed approach and subsequently crashed into trees. Then have a look at the french government cover up including the changing of the flt data recorders for the court case. Then read the transcript from the pilot in command who spent a year and a half behind bars for assumed negligence, when in fact his engines took over 26 seconds to respond to command.
Whilst you're at it, look at the A380 wing box test, the failure at 145% (short of the 150% minimum) and the reclassification of the rules to avoid any further engineering costs and weight.
Then have a look at the A340 and have a listen to what the boss of Emirates shouted at the paris airshow a couple of years ago about the inability to fly with full fuel, freight and pax.

Not trying to be insensitive here but Airbus don't make the best airplanes; we have 4 A380's and they achieved best ontime service for the first 4 months, then went to poo. Now, at any given stage you will find atleast 2 of them in maintenance with issues such as fuel pumps, control issues and a whole host of other things (not us but someone else had 2 electrical fires).

Atleast Boeing develop their aircraft technology in the military for 20 odd years before applying it to commercial aircraft; one of the reasons the 787 which has yet to fly has over 900 orders and the A380 languishes at around 200 (although several customers are trying to get out of their contracts). The 777 is the safest aircraft ever built in history, the 747 has flown equivalent klm to and from the moon over 30,000 times and every 4 seconds, somewhere in the world a 737 takes off. Lets not also forget the fact that the new, longer 747-8 will actually be able to get into airports after various regional curfews due to the noise it doesn't make, as well as the fact that with a new upper deck/sky suite, new wings, new engines, avionics and the 787 interior; the 747-8 is already more successful than the A380.
**EDITED**


With the A330 crash, many including Airbus are tipping a fly by wire problem. This has been evident before, we had an A330 climb and then nose dive over western australia a little while back, as well as an A330 with Jetstar that was into its fifth flight when over Indonesia the number 2 engine shut down for no reason, and couldn't be relighted even at 10000 feet. Further, a SA A330 had the same issue with a nose dive, and in this instance a few people lost their lives. Worldwide, the fly by wire system has been problematic, with various airlines reporting irregularites and uncommanded control issues.

With the Air France A330, there was over 12 data submissions sent by the plane warning of catastrophic sytems and control failures to company maintenance; basically the aircraft dropped from an altitude of between FL380 and FL350 when the failures commenced to the ocean surface in speculatively 3 minutes. This would have meant a dive over 12000 feet per minute which would have caused the airframe into overspeed and most likely break apart before impact. RIP to all those who lost their lives.

[Mickxr8]

R . I . P .

[EDManual]

I read its in around 6000metres of depth, submarines can only just go that far down but there are dangerous currents so possibly no blackbox or anything other than whats floating will ever be found.

[red_october]

Personally I don't care which type of airframe I'm hopping into, if your time's up, that's it.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by ltd

**EDITED** Have a look at the A320 which executed a missed approach and subsequently crashed into trees. Then have a look at the french government cover up including the changing of the flt data recorders for the court case. Then read the transcript from the pilot in command who spent a year and a half behind bars for assumed negligence, when in fact his engines took over 26 seconds to respond to command.
Whilst you're at it, look at the A380 wing box test, the failure at 145% (short of the 150% minimum) and the reclassification of the rules to avoid any further engineering costs and weight.
Then have a look at the A340 and have a listen to what the boss of Emirates shouted at the paris airshow a couple of years ago about the inability to fly with full fuel, freight and pax.

Not trying to be insensitive here but Airbus don't make the best airplanes; we have 4 A380's and they achieved best ontime service for the first 4 months, then went to poo. Now, at any given stage you will find atleast 2 of them in maintenance with issues such as fuel pumps, control issues and a whole host of other things (not us but someone else had 2 electrical fires).

Atleast Boeing develop their aircraft technology in the military for 20 odd years before applying it to commercial aircraft; one of the reasons the 787 which has yet to fly has over 900 orders and the A380 languishes at around 200 (although several customers are trying to get out of their contracts). The 777 is the safest aircraft ever built in history, the 747 has flown equivalent klm to and from the moon over 30,000 times and every 4 seconds, somewhere in the world a 737 takes off. Lets not also forget the fact that the new, longer 747-8 will actually be able to get into airports after various regional curfews due to the noise it doesn't make, as well as the fact that with a new upper deck/sky suite, new wings, new engines, avionics and the 787 interior; the 747-8 is already more successful than the A380.

**EDITED**


With the A330 crash, many including Airbus are tipping a fly by wire problem. This has been evident before, we had an A330 climb and then nose dive over western australia a little while back, as well as an A330 with Jetstar that was into its fifth flight when over Indonesia the number 2 engine shut down for no reason, and couldn't be relighted even at 10000 feet. Further, a SA A330 had the same issue with a nose dive, and in this instance a few people lost their lives. Worldwide, the fly by wire system has been problematic, with various airlines reporting irregularites and uncommanded control issues.

With the Air France A330, there was over 12 data submissions sent by the plane warning of catastrophic sytems and control failures to company maintenance; basically the aircraft dropped from an altitude of between FL380 and FL350 when the failures commenced to the ocean surface in speculatively 3 minutes. This would have meant a dive over 12000 feet per minute which would have caused the airframe into overspeed and most likely break apart before impact. RIP to all those who lost their lives.

**EDITED**

I still feel safer jumping onto a Airbus than a Boeing.

My passion for them and what knowledge I have of them is enough for me. My enjoyment comes out of looking at them, keeping and building models, Watching doco's of them and reading about them and their history day and night.

[RG]

Guys I will not have an argument over who know more about what in here. This is a great tragedy and is a sad day for the aviation industry. This goes much further than any one here's ego.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Danny

Thanks for that, you've made it clear you're in the industry.. Hope you're proud of yourself and that you feel a bigger wiser person.

I still feel safer jumping onto a Airbus than a Boeing. Your condescending comments here trying to make me feel like a d!!k dont change an opinion that is MINE, however wrong to you it may be. I can't see how I was rubbishing Boeing at all.

I don't have to be able to rattle off the S!!T that you just did to be an Airplane Aviation fan. My passion for them and what knowledge I have of them is enough for me. My enjoyment comes out of looking at them, keeping and building models, Watching doco's of them and reading about them and their history day and night. Apologies RIGHT HERE if shock horror I haven't come across the kind of knowledge and experience you seem to make it well known you have.

Thanks for your input.

Buddy, I'm not trying to take the mickey out of you at all. I have tried to avoid being condescending and have cited examples of where you can reference information that I am inferring to the forum. I did however take exception to your comment;
"where Boeing simply upgrade their aging planes with an "ER" on the end of the Model Number, Airbuses continuing development of noticeably newer safer smoother quieter Aircraft is put simply, the pride of european engineering."

That is a little off the mark and actually quite a defamatory comment. I get that you are a European fan and all, but I'd simply submit that you look beyond the hype and actually investigate what is going on in the industry, as at the end of June the whole aviation industry is set to change with the first flight of the 787. Even as a passenger you should care, for the whole aircraft is designed with the passenger in mind. Bigger windows, higher cabin pressure with greater humidity, oval shaped for greater passenger room etc, it is such a game changer that Airbus is building a competitor A350 (which has gone through several redesigns as it was initially an A330 with bigger fuel tank). No offence meant to you my friend but saying Boeing is rubbish is a bit of a joke; given that the A380 is the biggest flop of an airplane and even Emirates has cancelled orders; is considering cancelling more. All of the pilots I know dislike Airbus aircraft and their "Fly by Wire" technology with some even calling it "Die by Wire".
I think we can just agree to disagree.

[BAxtER]

RIP to all the victims !

LTD i agree with your views on the boeing aircrafts safety. I currently work at Emirates up here in Brissy and they have canceled there order of the A380 that was to do the auckland, brisbane, dubai route daily. Instead have gone with 2 flights one involving a 777-300ER, and when released the new 787.

They also still use an A340-500...but this will be scrapped once the 787 is released.
If you look at the latest aviation magazine boeing rolled out its 6000th 737 as well. By no means am i attacking airbus here..there technological advances with the A380 is great, but i just feel boeing are on the ball.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by BAxtER

RIP to all the victims !

LTD i agree with your views on the boeing aircrafts safety. I currently work at Emirates up here in Brissy and they have canceled there order of the A380 that was to do the auckland, brisbane, dubai route daily. Instead have gone with 2 flights one involving a 777-300ER, and when released the new 787.

They also still use an A340-500...but this will be scrapped once the 787 is released.
If you look at the latest aviation magazine boeing rolled out its 6000th 737 as well. By no means am i attacking airbus here..there technological advances with the A380 is great, but i just feel boeing are on the ball.

Often I see Singapore airlines 747's in YSSY; meaning atleast one of their A380's has broken down again.
Now, I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but I am pretty peeved that a known design fault which has occurred numerous times on numerous airframes and is evidenced to have been the most probable cause (through the telemetry received) has resulted in the loss of a further 220 odd lives. In our industry, we have several senior engineers who just want to ground the A330's until the NTSB defines the cause.
Again, RIP to all the victims

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by ltd

** With the A330 crash, many including Airbus are tipping a fly by wire problem. This has been evident before, we had an A330 climb and then nose dive over western australia a little while back, as well as an A330 with Jetstar that was into its fifth flight when over Indonesia the number 2 engine shut down for no reason, and couldn't be relighted even at 10000 feet. Further, a SA A330 had the same issue with a nose dive, and in this instance a few people lost their lives. Worldwide, the fly by wire system has been problematic, with various airlines reporting irregularites and uncommanded control issues.

There was also the crash of an Air New Zealand Airbus last November that mysteriously nose dived into the Mediterrranean, but that was an A320, not a 330.

Whether it's Airbus, Boeing or McDonnell Douglas, they've all had their share of unexplained crashes over the years at some point in history. The Boeing 737 had a run of unexplained nose dive crashes in the the USA in the early 90's later found due to a hydraulic problem with the rudder.....Then who can forget the string of DC-10 crashes in the 1970's - many of which were due to rear cargo door latch problems

[1970galaxie]

I travelled in an Airbus 330 back to Perth on the same night as the crash.
We were delayed for takeoff in Sydney, for what I thought the pilot said was a computer/software isssue, if I heard it right.
And also, I heard on the radio this morning, that our latest WA Swine flue victim was on the same flight back, in row 13. Luckily for me, I was in 57.

[Peuty]

I'd prefer to fly in an Airbus than an Embraer though.

Actually, no I wouldn't.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by GT0132

There was also the crash of an Air New Zealand Airbus last November that mysteriously nose dived into the Mediterrranean, but that was an A320, not a 330.

Whether it's Airbus, Boeing or McDonnell Douglas, they've all had their share of unexplained crashes over the years at some point in history. The Boeing 737 had a run of unexplained nose dive crashes in the the USA in the early 90's later found due to a hydraulic problem with the rudder.....Then who can forget the string of DC-10 crashes in the 1970's - many of which were due to rear cargo door latch problems

Mate, all airbus's commercial aircraft use the fly by wire system.
Here's what its shortfalls are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCwYA...eature=related

[Jason[98.EL]]

can i ask what this thread is about i have lost all the good will ect. that was here and now i see a fight over what aircraft is better

i think people need to take a chill pill and focus on what is the real issue here that 228 people lost thier lives

i dont care what aircraft it was or what is better the fact is people have lost thier lives and there is a heap of people that no longer have a family member around

Jason