Alleged War Crimes by Australian Soldiers

[Cav]

Ben Roberts-Smith, VC, MG, Australia's most decorated living soldier has advised that he is one of the soldiers under investigation for alleged war crimes in Afghanistan.

(We all know that he is suing Nine Newspapers for defamation over a series of articles published in The Age, Sydney Morning Herald and Canberra Times in 2018. To fund this he has his medals up as collateral for a loan.)

What on earth is happening in Australia?

Doesn't "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law," apply anymore?

General Campbell “sincerely and unreservedly” apologised to the people of Afghanistan for any wrongdoing by Australian soldiers.

So much for the rule of law in Australia.

How can the soldiers named in the report get a fair trial now the Defence Chief has apologised for their alleged war crimes?

I wrote this in response to a post in the USA election thread the other day ...

Whilst you are entitled to an opinion about the alleged incidences regarding SAS troops in Afghanistan, perhaps it may be prudent to see how the allegations stand up to scrutiny in a court of law.

Until then, the SAS soldiers should be treated the same as rapists and thieves - innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

And before I go, can you offer an opinion on this scenario.

There you are in a field with your mates, all bombed up with the latest weaponry and gear, probably about 40kgs worth, it is extremely hot, you have been patrolling relentlessly, you are tired and worn out physically and mentally while surviving on 6 hours sleep a night. You have not slept in a bed for three weeks now, no hot meals or showers for another week.

An old farmer walks past. He is an unarmed civilian.

Minutes later incoming mortar rounds start crashing down on top of you and ya mates. One is killed and two are seriously wounded.

Casualties are choppered out, and what is left of the patrol continues on their mission.

Two days later you see the same farmer walking past again.

Now for the ethical and moral dilemma.

If one of your mates shoots him, would you dob him in as a war criminal?

After all, in your words, such an act is morally evil.

[Streets]

Given that these are the findings of an investigation by the ADF itself, not just allegations from an outsider, and the fact that the Inspector General of the ADF has described one of the 39 murders as "possibly the most disgraceful episode in Australia's military history", I'm not exactly falling over myself to shroud these war criminals in Anzac glory just because they wear the rising sun badge

[Fordman1]

This is Devastating if true.

Ben Roberts Smith is a hero in my mind, if these allegations are true, I don’t know what to say.

This makes me very sad.

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by Streets

Given that these are the findings of an investigation by the ADF itself, not just allegations from an outsider, and the fact that the Inspector General of the ADF has described one of the 39 murders as "possibly the most disgraceful episode in Australia's military history", I'm not exactly falling over myself to shroud these war criminals in Anzac glory just because they wear the rising sun badge

I couldn't have put it better.
Other allegations suggest false claims of heroism that resulted in awards being given.
I'm very glad the claims have been investigated and that prosecutions will likely follow

[asagaai]

The Inquiry was headed by Justice Brereton, a NSW Court of Appeal Judge who is also an officer in the ADF.

The NSW Court of Appeal is essentially the court below the High Court. Justice Brereton is incredibly astute. He would put little weight to hearsay and second/third hand hearsay.

Therefore given he did the inquiry and the conclusions are damning I consider that there is strong direct evidence supporting charges being laid.

And I agree Cav, those soldiers who are charged have the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

But if it is proven that soldiers blooded newbies by cutting throats of civilian boys, killed civilians, that choppers squirted villagers running from them, that soldiers exterminated villagers unarmed and then planted radios/ak 47s to justify the killings- that is murder.

Very different to heat of battle, colleagues killed, and in the fog of battle killing collateral people.

That ABC footage of the SAS soldiers doing a raid, and the guy with the dog, his helmetcam footage shows a young guy being attacked by his dog, dog is pulled off, the afgan is lying in the grass, hands holding prayer beads, and a soldier goes up 4 foot from him and says to the sarge should I drop this c..t- the sarge gives a non commital response and the guy pumps 3 rounds into his head.

In the later inquiry it was said the guy had a radio and the sas guy shot him some 400 metres away. Absolute crap- it was an execution and in my book murder.

I feel sorry for young SAS soldiers who went in and they in reality had no option but to go along with what the senior guys were telling them to do.

Time for a reset and recalibration of the SAS.

But this stuff does not just happen in Australia. When I was in South Africa a captain in the normal army bragged about him witnessing their special forces who were called the recces wiping out a whole village in Angola (when there was a conflict with Angola)- it was chilling stuff and he seemed to have no appreciation that what he was bragging about were families of humans being exterminated.....

All sad when there are very decent people in the ADF and other armies.

[mostly_broncos]

bring them all home the Chinese can surely supply the opium your country needs .
We can't bring the US soldiers home our thirst for opium knows no bounds! Even China couldn't keep up with just the CIA's daily poppy related product requirements

[Burna57]

An old farmer walks past. He is an unarmed civilian.
This crux is used so often. What is the difference between someones father, son, grandson, wife mother daughter, sister. The list goes on. If you want to murder innocent people, don't join the army which is bound by rules.
ANZAC Day I've heard young Australian soldiers bragging up actions they committed, then claim they claim PTSD. There has to be a line drawn in the sand, after all, we are the invaders.

[AlanD]

I think I understand the OP's intent in starting this thread.

But I can't help wondering if it will serve any purpose other than allowing members who have little or no knowledge of the facts (other than the information provided by the Chief of the Defence Staff in the public statement that was made) an opportunity to vent partisan comment.

I can see this degenerating into an unedifying barrage of comment quickly.

So I ask the Chairman and/or moderators to lock the thread - please. Let the Army, the Federal Police and the Commonwealth Public Prosecutor do their due diligence and, in due course, provide their findings and take appropriate action.

Then, perhaps, we can make appropriate comment based on proper knowledge.

Cheers

[LG17]

I've never been to war (born just after WW2 and my number didn't come up for Vietnam) so I have no personal experience of what it's like. I lost friends and relatives in Vietnam and have for years noticed a marked difference in those mates who returned from Vietnam. Some have taken their own lives. Some still battle to survive on a daily basis.

I will never judge them for anything that happened on the battlefield as even though I've heard a few stories from some of them I can never really understand.
I cannot fathom the situations they found themselves in and have given up trying. As I said, I've never been there.
I cannot know the depths of their thoughts when confronted with those situations.
I cannot know the the danger whether real or not.
I cannot know that each day it was kill or be killed.
I cannot know which are the 'baddies' regardless of their appearance or actions.
This inquiry can do nothing but denigrate our armed forces and have them judged by people who have absolutely no idea.

[Rallye Sport]

Originally Posted by Burna57

ANZAC Day I've heard young Australian soldiers bragging up actions they committed, then claim they claim PTSD. There has to be a line drawn in the sand, after all, we are the invaders.

Saw and heard this all too often attending functions as a civilian with a previous military partner.
Blaming PTSD seemed to be the norm, I have my doubts and opinions on that. Its a job that I couldn't fathom or stomach so I do reserve those thoughts in due respect.

[hayseed]

Unfortunately these types of War crimes have been around as long as there have been Wars.
Breaker Morant was court martialed & executed for the same type of Crimes..

As Cav pointed out, The less than impartial Media Frenzy is (in my opinion) a Problem..

[lra]

Originally Posted by LG17

I've never been to war (born just after WW2 and my number didn't come up for Vietnam) so I have no personal experience of what it's like. I lost friends and relatives in Vietnam and have for years noticed a marked difference in those mates who returned from Vietnam. Some have taken their own lives. Some still battle to survive on a daily basis.

I will never judge them for anything that happened on the battlefield as even though I've heard a few stories from some of them I can never really understand.
I cannot fathom the situations they found themselves in and have given up trying. As I said, I've never been there.
I cannot know the depths of their thoughts when confronted with those situations.
I cannot know the the danger whether real or not.
I cannot know that each day it was kill or be killed.
I cannot know which are the 'baddies' regardless of their appearance or actions.
This inquiry can do nothing but denigrate our armed forces and have them judged by people who have absolutely no idea.

I was going to write something along the same line, but you have put it in a nutshell.

Having been a long-term member of the ADF, but lucky enough not to have had a weapon pointed at me with intent, I am thoroughly disgusted by the civilian ‘experts’ who have no idea, but want to be outraged by what has happened (or not) to upset their perfect world.

There is/was a complaining thread on here regarding ‘low flying Army helicopters with novice pilots disturbing the peace of leafy green Sydney suburbs’. Again, somebody’s perfect world had been upset.

Moderators, please do not lock this thread, let the ‘experts’ make fools of themselves by posting their ignorance and perfect world scenarios of what should have been done by who and when.

[Itsme]

Remember this inquiry was started from its own ADF personal who have obviously witnessed and reported these atrocities, the judicial system will deal with it accordingly and as for judgement from the public, serving and ex service members well you can make up your own mind what is right and wrong.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by AlanD

I think I understand the OP's intent in starting this thread.

But I can't help wondering if it will serve any purpose other than allowing members who have little or no knowledge of the facts (other than the information provided by the Chief of the Defence Staff in the public statement that was made) an opportunity to vent partisan comment.

I can see this degenerating into an unedifying barrage of comment quickly.

So I ask the Chairman and/or moderators to lock the thread - please. Let the Army, the Federal Police and the Commonwealth Public Prosecutor do their due diligence and, in due course, provide their findings and take appropriate action.

Then, perhaps, we can make appropriate comment based on proper knowledge.

Cheers

I don't see why a few people get to comment then have the topic locked on presumption, I would be disappointed if this topic is closed as most people are intelligent enough to express their opinions with this topic. If the topic got out of hand I'm sure our esteemed Admins and Moderators will adjudicate what is is appropriate for discussion.
Regards Pete.

[prktkljokr]

I get the we dont know what they are going through, and they are innocent till proven guilty, but the evidence that is stacking up is not looking good.

PTSD or just hungry for the kill, unfortunately we have people in our society that get a thrill from war, and some dont have the capability to stay on the right side.

War is War, Murder is Murder, no one is judge jury and executioner.

No amount of excuses can condone the unlawful killing of a unarmed civilian or a prisoner of war, war or no war, this is Murder in the eyes of the law.

There are world laws that govern what you can and cant do, and if what is unfolding is true then I am sorry the people involved need to take the punishment for what they have done.

In the scenario in the OP, innocent until proven guilty also stands up for the old farmer walking through that field, and yes I would dob him in, mate or no mate its Murder.

[T3rminator]

In the early 2000s I worked with someone whose brother in law was in the SAS. He tells me around 70% of soldiers have issue pressing the trigger when face to face with an adversary. So to counter this, some of them are fed full of mind altering stuff. Not offering an excuse, but it does show another angle.

With the Chief ADF coming out and saying what he said publicly, it doesn't look good. Anyone else seen the footage on ABC? It looks indefensible.

Sometimes I wonder if reports like these should be kept private, with details kept to a minimum for the public. There are enough crazy people out there looking for a reason to do some pretty nasty stuff. Do the release of these details put the rest of us at risk?

[98TLS]

Originally Posted by prktkljokr

I get the we dont know what they are going through, and they are innocent till proven guilty, but the evidence that is stacking up is not looking good.

PTSD or just hungry for the kill, unfortunately we have people in our society that get a thrill from war, and some dont have the capability to stay on the right side.

War is War, Murder is Murder, no one is judge jury and executioner.

No amount of excuses can condone the unlawful killing of a unarmed civilian or a prisoner of war, war or no war, this is Murder in the eyes of the law.

There are world laws that govern what you can and cant do, and if what is unfolding is true then I am sorry the people involved need to take the punishment for what they have done.

In the scenario in the OP, innocent until proven guilty also stands up for the old farmer walking through that field, and yes I would dob him in, mate or no mate its Murder.

unbelievable War is war and has been long before keyboards and rules blah blah,if indeed we lived in a perfect world do you really believe you would be around today to post such tripe.

[prktkljokr]

Originally Posted by 98TLS

unbelievable War is war and has been long before keyboards and rules blah blah,if indeed we lived in a perfect world do you really believe you would be around today to post such tripe.

Ok, I can see which side you are taking.
Is it because the guy they killed was a Afghani ?, or is it because the accused is a decorated war hero?, or is it all is fair in War.

Let me ask you this, if the roles were reversed and we had the war here in Australia, while you were out doing your daily routine providing for your family, the opposition stormed your house, raped your wife and children, killed them all and set your home on fire, is this ok because we are at war?
Would you be ok with that?, Im sure you would be screaming for justice from the rooftops.

[Cav]

Former Defence Force chief Chris Barrie has called for the Australian War Memorial council to be cleaned out amid concerns it has been too close to special forces soldiers who are now subject to allegations of war crimes.

The retired admiral, who led the ADF when troops were first deployed to Afghanistan, also wants to see exhibits about the Special Air Service Regiment removed from public display while the Memorial considers its response to a comprehensive inquiry into their conduct.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/f...20-p56gid.html

[mostly_broncos]

Originally Posted by Cav

Former Defence Force chief Chris Barrie has called for the Australian War Memorial council to be cleaned out amid concerns it has been too close to special forces soldiers who are now subject to allegations of war crimes.

The retired admiral, who led the ADF when troops were first deployed to Afghanistan, also wants to see exhibits about the Special Air Service Regiment removed from public display while the Memorial considers its response to a comprehensive inquiry into their conduct.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/f...20-p56gid.html

are you the grandfather from the raised by wolves TV show ?

Why did they only make two seasons? That is a travesty , I keep my acorn stream sub just to go back and rewatch it now and then

[LG17]

Originally Posted by Cav

Former Defence Force chief Chris Barrie has called for the Australian War Memorial council to be cleaned out amid concerns it has been too close to special forces soldiers who are now subject to allegations of war crimes.

The retired admiral, who led the ADF when troops were first deployed to Afghanistan, also wants to see exhibits about the Special Air Service Regiment removed from public display while the Memorial considers its response to a comprehensive inquiry into their conduct.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/f...20-p56gid.html

What happened to innocent unless proved guilty?

[xxx000]

The Inquiry has resulted in horrific allegations against a small number of soldiers.

These will be tested and examined in a court.

Sorry but I don't see the problem with this.

I do have a problem with people already suggesting that killing a civilian may be justified and therefore it's somehow outrageous that these soldiers may face such charges.

[aussiblue]

Interesting article in Today's West Australian (and I assume in other newspapers in other cities) by Heston Russell, a former SAS Commando, suggesting that one of the driving issues was that the key performance indicator used by those in command to measure the success of their operations was the "kill counts". He also implies that if those in command were in the actually in the field with their men, instead of monitoring operations using drones and unmanned vehicles, they would have seen the "bad elements" and a lot of this may not have happened.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by prktkljokr

No amount of excuses can condone the unlawful killing of a unarmed civilian or a prisoner of war, war or no war, this is Murder in the eyes of the law.

How much does the law even matter if we're wiling to engage in a conflict for which we have no legal justification?

[Bossxr8]

Talk is a conviction will be just about impossible, due to the admissions of fellow soldiers being unable to be used in court.

While there are a lot of grey areas, some of the claims seems to cross the line. But without being there, who am i to judge what happened.

[prktkljokr]

Originally Posted by b0son

How much does the law even matter if we're wiling to engage in a conflict for which we have no legal justification?

Pretty sure we are a allies to the US, so we get dragged into their conflict, it sucks that we have to send our guys to fight their war, but on the other hand if we went to war, we would like their assistance im sure.

I dont think it matters where you go in the world, the law for purposely taking a innocent until proven guilty life is the same, war sucks, but I can understand why it happens, would be better if they could resolve it with the good old rock paper scissors, but unfortunately greed, lies and who's got the biggest d!ck seem to pretty much start most wars.

[mostly_broncos]

Originally Posted by prktkljokr

Pretty sure we are a allies to the US, so we get dragged into their conflict, it sucks that we have to send our guys to fight their war, but on the other hand if we went to war, we would like their assistance im sure.

I dont think it matters where you go in the world, the law for purposely taking a innocent until proven guilty life is the same, war sucks, but I can understand why it happens, would be better if they could resolve it with the good old rock paper scissors, but unfortunately greed, lies and who's got the biggest d!ck seem to pretty much start most wars.

The US has no business in Afghanistan either. These endless brush wars only exist to enable fraud in the home country. We BUILT A SCHOOL , FOR kids !! well for a billion dollars , and never mind the 10 schools we blew up , pay no attention to that

We have about 50 people high tech satellite monitoring every hellfire missile that blows up a farmer's chicken coop. Each scrambled egg costs the hapless taxpayers a $1000 and maybe costs the farmer his life.

After enough drone strikes on chicken coops and napping goatherders the drone pilots go slit their wrists in the bathtub and a general chosen at random gets a medal.

There is no end in sight for this stuff , it provides a needed distraction for ****ty politicians .

[LG17]

Originally Posted by mostly_broncos

The US has no business in Afghanistan either. These endless brush wars only exist to enable fraud in the home country. We BUILT A SCHOOL , FOR kids !! well for a billion dollars , and never mind the 10 schools we blew up , pay no attention to that

We have about 50 people high tech satellite monitoring every hellfire missile that blows up a farmer's chicken coop. Each scrambled egg costs the hapless taxpayers a $1000 and maybe costs the farmer his life.

After enough drone strikes on chicken coops and napping goatherders the drone pilots go slit their wrists in the bathtub and a general chosen at random gets a medal.

There is no end in sight for this stuff , it provides a needed distraction for ****ty politicians .

Sorry, but WTF does that have to do with the allegations against some of our soldiers?

[marty351]

It appears that some here bave nfi about how wars are fought and why.
The reason our troops are deployed in these so called American wars is because there is this little thing called the GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR.

If we do nothing at all, we leave our soft underbelly exposed to the sword that has always been a threat to OUR way of life.

As sad and despicable these situations are, conflict is in our nature.

As for our troops, who or whomever leaked these allegations to the media in the first place needs to be made accountable. Discretion is the better part of valor, and the latter may well be lost forever.

[mad2]

i have a 'simple' question ........... define "war"