Giving Australian jobs away

mytgxl · 06-06-2012, 09:42 AM

What do you think about the Aus government now giving away Australian minning jobs instead of training our own people!
I believe their Australias resources not bloody Nathan tinkerbells or Geana Rhinnhearts, When is enough profit for these people enough! If they can`t employ Aussie worker don`t mine aussie resources!

**Polyal** · 06-06-2012, 09:44 AM

Its not quite that simple. Many people say they want to go to the mines but get there and cant hack it...so why train them up when you know you can get people who will do the job.

That and apparently its only 1700 people, the industry needs more than that and as far as I can see we cant fill the demand.

The other side of the coin is that they are super picky about tickets, training etc. Its the same reason why you see some many non anglo people running taxis, working in servos'. Some people want to work and some dont.

Kryton · 06-06-2012, 09:52 AM

Some people DO want to work in the mines but cant get experience ANYWHERE to do so.
Its a bit of a cop out to ask for experience when you cant get in to get experience to start with.

mytgxl · 06-06-2012, 10:24 AM

Sorry can`t cop that line can`t find people! They have had years to prepare for this & did nothing to train people up! Geana Rhinnheart could pay the right wages & people will go! You ask someone to go to the middle of nowhere & stay away from their family weeks at a time, you have to pay them! & As Davway said you need to have as many training as experience worker you have! To do that you have to let them in!

Brazen · 06-06-2012, 10:31 AM

I am more concerned about the foreign ownership. The largest coal mine in the world being proposed in QLD will be 79% Indian owned. Other vast tracks of resources are owned by Chinese and Japanese interests. The largest LNG deposit in the world in far north WA is half owned by the Japanese.

The media loves to lay on Reinhart as this massive owner of Australian resources, but in most cases the mines she has she is only the minority owner. The majority share owned by foreign governments or companies.

**Polyal** · 06-06-2012, 10:32 AM

Im currently in the process of getting into the industry as a grad and its not easy, and being in VIC means next to no experience in the field (I landed a summer job which has helped).

I agree they are to picky, but lets not sit here and pretend that everyone is going to head over. I think the Gov should be doing more no doubt, setting up centers in capital cities to help people, but people have to help themselves aswell.

XWGT · 06-06-2012, 10:41 AM

Like most things its a tad more complex than the Today Tonight headlines.

For example

1) There is a requirement for 6,000 NEW tradesmen for a construction phase.
2) The construction phase will last a a short number of years, and then will scale down to an operational workforce that will be locally employed.
3) Finding 60 tradesmen is hard. 6,000 it outright bloody impossible. 6,000 plus support staff is harder. 6,000 plus support staff in the middle of nowhere is bordering on the impossible
4) 6,0000 people are NOT going to move from the East Coast. In fact it might be lucky to get 500.
5) the 1,700 457 Visas allow skilled people to come to Australia for the constuction phase only, paying top marginal tax rates as they are not residents, and then have to leave.
6) The project in question is one of at least $500,000,000 in the pipeline. It will take an entire bloody additional country to build them if they all proceed.
7) Yes, the minerals belong to everyone. But it takes lot of money, and a lot of planning and a lot people to mine them. We have money, and planning, we dont have people.
8) Mining still has to compete with the construction, farming and manufacturing sector for skilled staff. In general the former three allow you to live close to where you work. The later does not and that makes it unattractive in the long run for large scale workforces.

There just SOME of the reasons why no one has to fear a thing from 457 Visas. Which by the way have been used in other industries to fill skills gaps and the world hasnt ended......

Brazen · 06-06-2012, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XWGT

Like most things its a tad more complex than the Today Tonight headlines.

For example

1) There is a requirement for 6,000 NEW tradesmen for a construction phase.
2) The construction phase will last a a short number of years, and then will scale down to an operational workforce that will be locally employed.
3) Finding 60 tradesmen is hard. 6,000 it outright bloody impossible. 6,000 plus support staff is harder. 6,000 plus support staff in the middle of nowhere is bordering on the impossible
4) 6,0000 people are NOT going to move from the East Coast. In fact it might be lucky to get 500.
5) the 1,700 457 Visas allow skilled people to come to Australia for the constuction phase only, paying top marginal tax rates as they are not residents, and then have to leave.
6) The project in question is one of at least $500,000,000 in the pipeline. It will take an entire bloody additional country to build them if they all proceed.
7) Yes, the minerals belong to everyone. But it takes lot of money, and a lot of planning and a lot people to mine them. We have money, and planning, we dont have people.
8) Mining still has to compete with the construction, farming and manufacturing sector for skilled staff. In general the former three allow you to live close to where you work. The later does not and that makes it unattractive in the long run for large scale workforces.

There just SOME of the reasons why no one has to fear a thing from 457 Visas. Which by the way have been used in other industries to fill skills gaps and the world hasnt ended......

I still think it is the easy way out. They are flying people in and out as that is the cheapest (and a expense tax deduction which makes them pay less Super Profit mining tax - a stupid tax which is easily exploited or minimised).

What they should be doing is setting up and building towns like they did in the 60s and 70s as a central hub, then drive in and out to the various mines (or light prop fly in and out) from the towns. These towns could have families and be set-up with diversified industries like tourism.

They also need to heavily invest in training, the 457 has always been a cop out and means wealth isnt shared within communities. They are wanting to import plumbers and welders. These are skills that should be picked up at a local Tafe - they dont require years of uni study. The Tafe courses also need to change - for far too long the courses have become longer and longer meaning so the instituions can get longer cashflows. This needs to stop. There should be basic 6 month course mixed with theory and practical. This 'base' course should be enough to gain entry into the mines where there they gain further skill and expieirence in working with expierenced supervisors.

There is no reason that a country cant sustain its own industry. If we cant - it means we are rushing too much which has inflation and price consequnces for the rest of the community. Heck even if something takes an extra year, the minerals are still gonna be there in the ground when we are ready.

**Polyal** · 06-06-2012, 11:01 AM

Only problem with setting up towns is that it is in the middle of nowhere, once the mine stops thats it and the community will fall apart. Unless you build some kind of "portable" town and move from site to site.

Brazen · 06-06-2012, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Only problem with setting up towns is that it is in the middle of nowhere, once the mine stops thats it and the community will fall apart. Unless you build some kind of "portable" town and move from site to site.

Thats why you have hub towns which service a range of mines - ideally positioned on the coast so you can have long-term tourism and other associated industries.

Many towns around today are still going strong, such as Broken Hill, Parkes, etc.

Flying in people from Perth etc is the easy and cheap way out. Did you know each week day the Qantas Club lounge at Perth has had 1700 people check in there by 7am!!! That is just one airline... It takes 35mins sitting on the tarmac to wait for all the planes to get take off and get to the mines...35mins.

There has to be a more sustainable long-term way of diversifying where Australians live.

dimka100 · 06-06-2012, 11:19 AM

You do realise that these mining projects are privately owned and funded? And you do realise that these privately owned companies solely exist to make a profit? You also probably realise that in a democratic country these privately owned businesses have the right to make the decisions on how to run their companies within the boundaries of the law? … Now just recently you slapped these companies with another massive tax, and yet you are surprised they are spitting in your face???

Seriously it just amazes me how Australians just expect the Government to hand them out jobs, money, security, health, education, ets … wake up, we don’t live in a communist country, we don’t divide wealth to the point that everyone is equal, we don’t have to give you just cause you are Australian … You know I migrated from a communist country, and that’s exactly how everyone thought there! Goes how well that turned out for everyone at the end …

mytgxl · 06-06-2012, 11:21 AM

If they were truley that intrested in getting trades people they would addvertise in all the major towns with the pay & incentives I have not seen 1 addvert here in newcastle for trades people! So couldn`t be that intrested in getting anyone! Just a copout to get cheap overseas workers! I bet they don`t have to pay their super annuation,same pay rates & can claim on them for flying them in & out!

Brazen · 06-06-2012, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimka100

You do realise that these mining projects are privately owned and funded? And you do realise that these privately owned companies solely exist to make a profit? You also probably realise that in a democratic country these privately owned businesses have the right to make the decisions on how to run their companies within the boundaries of the law? … Now just recently you slapped these companies with another massive tax, and yet you are surprised they are spitting in your face???

Seriously it just amazes me how Australians just expect the Government to hand them out jobs, money, security, health, education, ets … wake up, we don’t live in a communist country, we don’t divide wealth to the point that everyone is equal, we don’t have to give you just cause you are Australian … You know I migrated from a communist country, and that’s exactly how everyone thought there! Goes how well that turned out for everyone at the end …

There is a massive difference with a mining company. The mineral wealth is owned by Australians - the mining companies effectively purchase a license to extract these resources owned by you and me. It is only fair that as this resource increases in value - the increase is passed onto the owners (you and me).

People think of a mining company the same way they think of a factory. They are completely different entities, as Australia owns the resources and allows extraction. A factory owner has to buy and purchase his materials to make his wares - he is not given anything.

Jim Goose · 06-06-2012, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mytgxl

What do you think about the Aus government now giving away Australian minning jobs instead of training our own people!
I believe their Australias resources not bloody Nathan tinkerbells or Geana Rhinnhearts, When is enough profit for these people enough! If they can`t employ Aussie worker don`t mine aussie resources!

I always laugh at how its always the governments fault...
While yes the government ultimately gave permission to allow some 1700 overseas workers to arrive for Ginas new mining venture, its GINA not the government who wants to employ people from overseas.

We all seem to be so preoccupied with blaming the government for all our woes, when its big business who pulls the shots in this country.

The mining boom has/ will ultimately ruin this country socially, especially small towns where its now unaffordable to live there due to peoples greed or the small towns are dieing out due to Fly In/ Fly Out operations.

big business gets what it wants.... and the government allows it.
It all very well and good to blame the government but how about we start throwing our anger towards the Gina Rineharts as well?

Brazen · 06-06-2012, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

I always laugh at how its always the governments fault...
While yes the government ultimately gave permission to allow some 1700 overseas workers to arrive for Ginas new mining venture, its GINA not the government who wants to employ people from overseas.

We all seem to be so preoccupied with blaming the government for all our woes, when its big business who pulls the shots in this country.

The mining boom has/ will ultimately ruin this country socially, especially small towns where its now unaffordable to live there due to peoples greed or the small towns are dieing out due to Fly In/ Fly Out operations.

big business gets what it wants.... and the government allows it.
It all very well and good to blame the government but how about we start throwing our anger towards the Gina Rineharts as well?

Gina has done nothing wrong, she has represented her interests and not broke any law, she is investing in mines and creating jobs in the process.

If Australia is getting ripped off, then it is the government's fault - as their job is to represent you and I.

Kryton · 06-06-2012, 11:47 AM

How is it NOT the governments fault - they LET her do it.
They could have just as easily said NO.

Jim Goose · 06-06-2012, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Gina has done nothing wrong, she has represented her interests and not broke any law, she is investing in mines and creating jobs in the process.

If Australia is getting ripped off, then it is the government's fault - as their job is to represent you and I.

Where did i say she broke the law?

I think a lot of people would agrue the point that you think she has done nothing wrong.... job creation is not her mind, profits are.

Yes its the governments fault, it always is
Gina has the best interests of Australia at heart..

Jim Goose · 06-06-2012, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

How is it NOT the governments fault - they LET her do it.
They could have just as easily said NO.

And your missing my point.... why is the anger always soley directed at the government instead of big business?

Kryton · 06-06-2012, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

And your missing my point.... why is the anger always soley directed at the government instead of big business?

What point?
The anger is at the Government because they gave her permission.
If they had said NO, and she did it anyway, then the anger would be at her.
Didnt think it was that hard to understand.

b0son · 06-06-2012, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mytgxl

Sorry can`t cop that line can`t find people! They have had years to prepare for this & did nothing to train people up!

If you're a white collar worker, you're expected to seek out and pay for your own training (eg. uni degree). Why do blue collars expect their employers to provide and pay for all the training?

Perhaps the problem is that while there are plenty of people who want to do the work, not enough of them are willing to get the qualifications themselves?

flappist · 06-06-2012, 11:53 AM

Hang on.....

What is the difference between this and buying all you stuff overseas off the internet thereby doing Australians out of a job?

This forum is full of how Australian businesses are a ripoff and everything is cheaper overseas.

Well guess what.....YOU are cheaper overseas too.

Or is it different when you personally are not the one gaining an advantage at others' expenses?

**DJM83** · 06-06-2012, 12:00 PM

May aswell, if they can't find people that want to work why not.

Franco Cozzo · 06-06-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XWGT

There just SOME of the reasons why no one has to fear a thing from 457 Visas. Which by the way have been used in other industries to fill skills gaps and the world hasnt ended......

Except when they start paying them award wages and they accept it, then they'll say they can't find any Australians willing to work for $15.91 an hour in the middle of nowhere in 45 degree heat, so they need to import more.

Personally, I think its just to remove power of the unions and drive down wages, its the start.

Maybe we can be like Dubai, no mimumum wage laws, no OH&S laws, at our Dubai office we're paying our workers $17 a day, no safety equipment, you hurt yourself, thats your problem.

flappist · 06-06-2012, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Except when they start paying them award wages and they accept it, then they'll say they can't find any Australians willing to work for $15.91 an hour in the middle of nowhere in 45 degree heat, so they need to import more.

There are heaps of people who work outside aircon in the Melbourne CBD in summer for less than $16/hr......

||| · 06-06-2012, 12:34 PM

yeah you're right why is the australian government not making sure all aussies are employed. i mean they could just open government coal mines & we could all work there

XWGT · 06-06-2012, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Except when they start paying them award wages and they accept it, then they'll say they can't find any Australians willing to work for $15.91 an hour in the middle of nowhere in 45 degree heat, so they need to import more.

Personally, I think its just to remove power of the unions and drive down wages, its the start.

Maybe we can be like Dubai, no mimumum wage laws, no OH&S laws, at our Dubai office we're paying our workers $17 a day, no safety equipment, you hurt yourself, thats your problem.

Can you give me a single example in a single industry where this has happened?

The scaremongering in this country is becoming ridiculous. From refugees to terrorists to bloody doomsdayers the **** people will believe in the face of contrary evidence is astounding.

I receive an incredibly comprehensive report of the mining and energy sector wages every year and for the last few years I can tell you the numbers only ever go up, not down! To suggest otherwise is quite frankly total rubbish.

Franco Cozzo · 06-06-2012, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XWGT

Can you give me a single example in a single industry where this has happened?

The scaremongering in this country is becoming ridiculous. From refugees to terrorists to bloody doomsdayers the **** people will believe in the face of contrary evidence is astounding.

I receive an incredibly comprehensive report of the mining and energy sector wages every year and for the last few years I can tell you the numbers only ever go up, not down! To suggest otherwise is quite frankly total rubbish.

In 1998, the Melbourne Docks, scab labour brought in to replace 1400 union workers.

http://www.solidarity.net.au/2/mua-here-to-stay/

http://southmovement.alphalink.com.a...ws/federal.htm

Court case:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/c.../1998/378.html

This wasn't using 457 Visas but it was an attempt to break union power in the docks.

dimka100 · 06-06-2012, 01:54 PM

I just love how all the Australians feel this sense of entitlement when it comes to the natural resources that are now making certain people rich ...

Firstly where all of you have been a hundred years ago when the miners did not make a ton of money ... ohh that's right you did not give a damn because it wasn't making people rich back then so you let it all go ... now that these people are finally making money on the years of hard work you all suddenly want a piece of the pie ... how Australian

Secondly what stops you from going out there, purchasing the land licenses, doing all the hard work, and earning tons of money as well ... ahh that's right you can't do it cause you have more excuses that Jesus has followers ... so instead you chose to ask for it, cause you think you are entitled, cause its a hell of a lot easier to do ...

Well guess what the world does not work that way ... just because you are born in Australia does not automatically make you entitled for someone's success ... yes you manage to find a way to slap on another tax on Gina but guess what, she managed to find a way to slap you back in the face, and will continue to do so until people learn to respect those who work hard and develop this nation VS those who just go around all day claiming their 'entitlements' ...

P.S. I don;t work in the mining industry ... I actually work in IT ... and not for a second have I ever thought that I can be entitled for the billions Gina digs out of the ground ...

And as for those say well mining is different ... well guess what miners are already paying massive amount of money for land lease to both the government and the Aboriginal communities ... you are now simply trying to get even more

Franco Cozzo · 06-06-2012, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dimka100

P.S. I don;t work in the mining industry ... I actually work in IT ... and not for a second have I ever thought that I can be entitled for the billions Gina digs out of the ground ...

Well, why should we pay you the wages you are getting when someone from India or the Phillipines can do the same job for less?

Its not I feel entitled to money Gina is getting from the ground, its making a stand about wages and working conditions Australia wide, because once it starts it probably won't be able to get stopped.

XWGT · 06-06-2012, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

In 1998, the Melbourne Docks, scab labour brought in to replace 1400 union workers.

http://www.solidarity.net.au/2/mua-here-to-stay/

http://southmovement.alphalink.com.a...ws/federal.htm

Court case:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/c.../1998/378.html

This wasn't using 457 Visas but it was an attempt to break union power in the docks.

So I repeat, in any of the above where their instances when a specific shortfall of labour was projected well in advance and once the project was finished the 457 Visas were extended and local employees lost their jobs?

To put things in perpective here. Its 6,000 NEW jobs. Not existing, not relocating, NEW that are required. In an economy that already has trades qualified employees stretched to the limit.

Sorry but the whole sky is falling scenerio is complete rubbish.