Spare the belt . . .

Keepleft · 08-04-2009, 07:14 PM

From NT News April 8, 2009
http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/200...71_ntnews.html

Quote:

Smack costs dad his daughter

EMILY WATKINS

April 8th, 2009

A MAN who smacked his five-year-old daughter with a belt after she stole money has been fined $1000 and had her removed from his custody.

The 42-year-old man pleaded guilty to the aggravated assault charge in Darwin Magistrates Court yesterday.

The court heard he took a black leather belt from his bedroom, folded it over and hit the girl four times on the bottom with it when she would not tell him where she got the money from.

She was walking strangely to stop the $2.10 in coins making a noise in her pocket after the man picked her up from school last month.

The court heard the girl and her father had a "wonderful" relationship.

The court was also told the man had two older sons who lived with him at the time, he had recently separated from his partner, and was under stress at work.

The girl is now living with a foster carer interstate. In sentencing the man, magistrate Greg Cavanagh said the assault of the girl was "outrageous".

"The trust that is given to adults and to fathers to bring up and nurture their young babies is a very precious thing indeed - the most precious responsibility and trust you'll ever have," he said.

"You have abused that trust and you have abused your love of her by giving her a beating."

Mr Cavanagh said that even if the man had been brought up with similar punishments, society no longer accepted it.

"In this modern age, physical punishment of children is seen to be barbaric," he said.

"I'll bet you she screamed and cried when you did this to her."

The man wiped away tears as Mr Cavanagh sentenced him.

He was convicted and fined $1000.

Iggypoppin' · 08-04-2009, 07:18 PM

This will be a shocker for for/against replies. Against myself, but hey I also believe parents can be responsible for they're own childrens discipline. That being said where do you draw the line?

Keepleft · 08-04-2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLWXR6

This will be a shocker for for/against replies. Against myself, but hey I also believe parents can be responsible for they're own childrens discipline. That being said where do you draw the line?

Welts, bruises??

My old man was a QC and judge, step out of line and I knew it in much the same way, tough but fair.

Iggypoppin' · 08-04-2009, 07:30 PM

It isn't the way. Sure back in 'ought dickity two it might have been, but now all your doing by beating a child is making them harbor a hatred towards you from a young age. Just because someone is beaten as a child doesn't mean it's ok to do it to your kids. That makes you as bad as the person you resented years ago when they beat you.

DoreSlamR · 08-04-2009, 07:30 PM

Belting a 5 year old girl with a belt? That's probably getting a little extreme.

Having said that, taking her away and sending her interstate to foster care is going to mess her up more than a smack.

Poor form all round IMO

CADSKY · 08-04-2009, 07:34 PM

absolutely ridiculus! im only 21, not a parent or anything, but theres no way that his daughter should have been taken away for that! my mum used to hit me on the backside with a wooden spoon. we never got taken away and my mum and i have a great relationship.

RACINGdork · 08-04-2009, 07:38 PM

i never got belted because i knew i could get belted... my older sister on the other hand used to cop a regular floggin hehehe

**TUF_302** · 08-04-2009, 08:02 PM

Hitting her with the belt is way to extreme, but i do believe you should be able to smack your children

GK · 08-04-2009, 09:22 PM

Nothing wrong with strong and clear discipline given out in love.

If you are firm, fair and consistent, then even mistakes you may make from time to time are not going to damage the child.

Having said that though, I wouldn't be hitting my children with a belt.

Agree 100% with the comment earlier, that the child will be far better off without her dad.

GK

JC · 08-04-2009, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GK

Nothing wrong with strong and clear discipline given out in love.

If you are firm, fair and consistent, then even mistakes you may make from time to time are not going to damage the child.

Having said that though, I wouldn't be hitting my children with a belt.

Agree 100% with the comment earlier, that the child will be far better off without her dad.

GK

GK - do you mean she won't be better off without her dad?
I agree a belt is going a bit far, but there's nothing wrong with a smack.

Scott · 08-04-2009, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GK

Agree 100% with the comment earlier, that the child will be far better off without her dad.

Huh?? On the assumption that her father is a good, upstanding and valuable member of society I can't fathom how she could be better off without him?!?

On the other hand, given where it happened and the fact that it got reported let alone made it to court, I wonder just how wonderful the bloke really is.

DoreSlamR · 08-04-2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP006

Huh?? On the assumption that her father is a good, upstanding and valuable member of society I can't fathom how she could be better off without him?!?

On the other hand, given where it happened and the fact that it got reported let alone made it to court, I wonder just how wonderful the bloke really is.

well the article said they had a wonderful relationship.

Another question is where's the mother in all this?

Spudz27 · 08-04-2009, 09:56 PM

I have smacked my daughter, most parents have given their kids a smack at some point (not a massively hard smack). The problem is society's view these days. Do you know how hard it is not to smack a 3 yr old having a huge tantrum simply because you are in a shopping centre or public place and you are too afraid of what may or may not get reported? It is as bad as a male being judged taking his own daughter to the toilet. I took my daughter to work with me and was dreading when I had to take her to the toilet.

I would never use a belt or any type of item but.

RG · 08-04-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

well the article said they had a wonderful relationship.

Another question is where's the mother in all this?

Just because the article says this, they most likely got that line straight from the defence lawyer mind you, does not make it so.

Trust me when I say that there would have been a LOT more than just this happening for them to decide to take her away.

DoreSlamR · 08-04-2009, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

Just because the article says this, they most likely got that line straight from the defence lawyer mind you, does not make it so.

Trust me when I say that there would have been a LOT more than just this happening for them to decide to take her away.

Yeah I realise this, it's just that they made a point of it.

No doubt there is more going on than we know, which is why I wondered where the mother is and why they sent the child to foster care and not her.

Road_Warrior · 08-04-2009, 10:29 PM

Whilst I support a parents right to discipline their kids (including smacking - hell, I know I would) using a belt or any other kind of implement to mete out 'punishment' is just not on.

prydey · 09-04-2009, 03:05 PM

anyone who thinks there is no correlation between less discipline and the rising crime rate is kidding themselves.

anyone who thinks discipline by physical punishment is going to make your offspring grow up to hate/resent is also kidding themselves.

also if you don't have kids i don't see how you can have an opinion on which method of raising children works best.

speak to any school teacher and they'll be able to tell you the kids that get smacked and the ones that don't without anyone telling them.

physical discipline is not automatically abuse! if i'm out and about and my kids muck up, they are going to cop it, regardless of who is watching.

eb_5litre · 09-04-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

anyone who thinks there is no correlation between less discipline and the rising crime rate is kidding themselves.

anyone who thinks discipline by physical punishment is going to make your offspring grow up to hate/resent is also kidding themselves.

also if you don't have kids i don't see how you can have an opinion on which method of raising children works best.

speak to any school teacher and they'll be able to tell you the kids that get smacked and the ones that don't without anyone telling them.

physical discipline is not automatically abuse! if i'm out and about and my kids muck up, they are going to cop it, regardless of who is watching.

Agree 110%

Sam_Boss260 · 09-04-2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

speak to any school teacher and they'll be able to tell you the kids that get smacked and the ones that don't without anyone telling them.

Out of curiousity,how would you distinguish the kids who have been smacked and those who haven't.

Yes, ,y kids get disciplned with the odd smack on the bottom. Never used a belt or anything, but agree that a 3 or 4 year throwing a tantrum - the only thing to snap them out is a little smack.

And whilst I agree that the belt is excessive, so too is sending the girl away. That is a bit extreme?

mcflux · 09-04-2009, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RACINGdork

my older sister on the other hand used to cop a regular floggin hehehe

pix?

5L · 09-04-2009, 03:33 PM

i know i got disciplined as a kid, and early teenage years when i stepped up to my father. i dont know if he would try it now lol, but i didnt steal anyones car or mugged an old lady.

i had friends who didnt get disciplined by there parents and they didnt see they were doing anything wrong till they got caught.

nothing wrong with a good smack on the backside, aslong as you dont take it to far. 4 hits with a belt across the backside is alot less than what the oldies on here would of got a school with the cane when they mucked up. they would then leave school and face the old man when they got home.

big_waity · 09-04-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

Belting a 5 year old girl with a belt? That's probably getting a little extreme.

Having said that, taking her away and sending her interstate to foster care is going to mess her up more than a smack.

Agreed. I got smacked as a child, belt, wooden spoon. It worked too. I learnt consequences for actions. I think a belt is too much for a 5 year old girl but I think that destroying her life by puting her into foster care is far worse than her growing up in a house with discipline. The man obviously cares about his daughter if he notices that she has a couple of dollars worth of coins that she shouldn't have. How many parents don't even notice when their kid is doing drugs?

big_waity · 09-04-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_Boss260

Out of curiousity,how would you distinguish the kids who have been smacked and those who haven't.

My wife is a school teacher. Whilst she wouldn't necessarily know which ones get smacked, she can certainly tell you which ones get sufficiently disciplined. Sooo many kids these days get nowhere near enough discipline and I think this court case has a lot to do with why.

big_waity · 09-04-2009, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RG

Trust me when I say that there would have been a LOT more than just this happening for them to decide to take her away.

Really? You DO have some faith in the system...

prydey · 09-04-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_waity

The man obviously cares about his daughter if he notices that she has a couple of dollars worth of coins that she shouldn't have.

i would say the amount was irrelevant. its the principle! don't steal. don't be fooled by a childs age. their brain is active from a very young age, and even after a few months they know exactly what they can get away with and how to manipulate.

JC · 09-04-2009, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_Boss260

Out of curiousity,how would you distinguish the kids who have been smacked and those who haven't.

Yes, ,y kids get disciplned with the odd smack on the bottom. Never used a belt or anything, but agree that a 3 or 4 year throwing a tantrum - the only thing to snap them out is a little smack.

And whilst I agree that the belt is excessive, so too is sending the girl away. That is a bit extreme?

The ones who are smacked don't back answer, they usually do as they are told, and are generally good. This is a generalistion, I know, but it is also fact; kids with no discipline grow up undisciplined (funny that).

Now, I'm not saying that discipline has to be smacks - time outs work (sometimes), as do other forms of punishment (confiscation of toys/pocket money etc), grounding.....etc, but smacks work best, IMO. In fact, we have found now that just the threat of a smack, or of Daddy (me) being angry with our kids is enough to correct their behaviour. They are also getting to the age (4 & 6) where we can talk to them to and reason with them, but the end of the conversation is usually "if you keep doing this, you will get a smack and get sent to your room and you won't be allowed to play with (insert favourite person/toy/animal)......." It works 99% of the time, and the times it doesn't; they get a smack and hence goes the circle of discipline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AUXR8220

i know i got disciplined as a kid, and early teenage years when i stepped up to my father. i dont know if he would try it now lol, but i didnt steal anyones car or mugged an old lady.

i had friends who didnt get disciplined by there parents and they didnt see they were doing anything wrong till they got caught.

nothing wrong with a good smack on the backside, aslong as you dont take it to far. 4 hits with a belt across the backside is alot less than what the oldies on here would of got a school with the cane when they mucked up. they would then leave school and face the old man when they got home.

Ditto to that. I don't consider myself an "oldie", but we got the strap at school, and then we had to explain to our parents why; which usually ended up in some form of grounding (not usually a double smacking though).

Sam_Boss260 · 09-04-2009, 03:45 PM

Absolutley agree big_waity. So many kids just get away with murder and are just little brats. I have a 3 year old and a 5 year old. And some of the other kids in their class, family memer or friends etc in the same age group are just shockers. Kids are playing up badly right in front of the parents and they do nothing. Just shocking.

When I was growing up, and if we were out somewhere, there were 3 looks. The first was wait till we get home look. The second was wait till we get in the car look, and the last was you are getting it now look. And I feared each one of them !!

JC · 09-04-2009, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_Boss260

Absolutley agree big_waity. So many kids just get away with murder and are just little brats. I have a 3 year old and a 5 year old. And some of the other kids in their class, family memer or friends etc in the same age group are just shockers. Kids are playing up badly right in front of the parents and they do nothing. Just shocking.

When I was growing up, and if we were out somewhere, there were 3 looks. The first was wait till we get home look. The second was wait till we get in the car look, and the last was you are getting it now look. And I feared each one of them !!

See, we're all normal. We had much the same, plus the old "wait til your father gets home" from mum. Some of the time this was enough to know that we'd gone too far, and mum didn't always tell dad what had happened/how we'd behaved, but when she did, your bum knew about it.

balthazarr · 09-04-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

anyone who thinks there is no correlation between less discipline and the rising crime rate is kidding themselves.

Not just rising crime, but the lack of respect by young kids these days.

Quote:

anyone who thinks discipline by physical punishment is going to make your offspring grow up to hate/resent is also kidding themselves.

I agree. Of course, there's punishment and then there's punishment. I am in no way condoning abuse, but smacking - even a few strikes with a belt - is not child abuse IMHO. As long as there's no permanent damage, and it's not going overboard - where's the issue? Yes, it's a fine line. Yes, it's open to abuse - but I think that people can tell those children that have been genuinely abused, and those that have not.

I think that kids will hate/resent, but eventually they will grow out of it and thank you for it in the long run.

Quote:

also if you don't have kids i don't see how you can have an opinion on which method of raising children works best.

I don't have kids, but I still have an opinion on how they should be raised.

Quote:

speak to any school teacher and they'll be able to tell you the kids that get smacked and the ones that don't without anyone telling them.

physical discipline is not automatically abuse! if i'm out and about and my kids muck up, they are going to cop it, regardless of who is watching.

I agree. I am old enough to have received the cane by my principal in primary school. I don't necessarily agree with that idea, but there really is nothing wrong with the odd smack.

I can guarantee you this child will think twice the next time she tries to steal anything.

Sam_Boss260 · 09-04-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

- time outs work (sometimes), as do other forms of punishment (confiscation of toys/pocket money etc), grounding.....etc, but smacks work best, IMO. In fact, we have found now that just the threat of a smack, or of Daddy (me) being angry with our kids is enough to correct their behaviour. They are also getting to the age (4 & 6) where we can talk to them to and reason with them, but the end of the conversation is usually "if you keep doing this, you will get a smack and get sent to your room and you won't be allowed to play with (insert favourite person/toy/animal)......." It works 99% of the time, and the times it doesn't; they get a smack and hence goes the circle of discipline.

Yep, our household is similiar. Combination of time out, and confiscation work. But sometimes you have no option and a smack is required. They know the drill and are learning that certain actions have consequences. Look, at the end of the day, they are kids and will play up. But they need to learn the difference between playing up and right and wrong. Otherwise how will they know?