Carbon fibre wheels

[Bossxr8]

http://carbonrev.com/index.html

This is something that I have taken in interest in, Carbon Fibre wheels developed here in Australia, with Carbon Revolution working in conjuction with Deakin University here in Geelong.

This will be the next big thing in fuel economy. They are claiming something like a 7-8 % reduction in fuel consumption with these wheels. They will soon be building a factory here with production expected to reach 50,000 sets in its first year. They have had significant interest from a number of European manufacturers and look like being a success story.

Good to see an Aussie company doing good.

[Falcon Coupe]

Nothing like reducing a little unsprung weight, be good to this go mainstream.

[Mechan1k]

Definitely interesting if it does become a little more mainstream ... that's for sure.

[Road Games]

Wow ,i cannot wait for this...

[MR.BA.GT.332]

wonder how much

[Neale]

Doesnt Carbon fibre shatter If it has a decent hit, like a pothole?? Id think a metal wheel would be safer in that regard

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by Neale

Doesnt Carbon fibre shatter If it has a decent hit, like a pothole?? Id think a metal wheel would be safer in that regard

Formula 1 use magnesium alloy wheels - but that material is mandated by the regs.
I agree a metal rim with a little give relative to carbon fibre would be a better choice. Imagine how expensive gutter rash would be to fix on a carbon fibre wheel?

[Mechan1k]

That's where rims skins come in handy

[Neale]

Originally Posted by pauljh74

Formula 1 use magnesium alloy wheels - but that material is mandated by the regs.
I agree a metal rim with a little give relative to carbon fibre would be a better choice. Imagine how expensive gutter rash would be to fix on a carbon fibre wheel?

You may be able to just patch it with fibreglass or bog but gutter rash could possibly induce a weekness if not fixed properly.

It is an interesting idea though, I know some pushbikes that have composite wheels but they dont have the same stresses & neglect that a car wheel cops.

[kempy311]

I was looking at the testing of them, they look like there pretty strong.

[GTpilot]

I saw these at Melb motorshow this year. Incredibly light only a couple of kg. Just awesome!

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

http://carbonrev.com/index.html


This will be the next big thing in fuel economy. They are claiming something like a 7-8 % reduction in fuel consumption with these wheels..

While Im familiar with how to calculate the amount of energy required to get a mass m of radius r up to a particular speed, Id like to see how they came up with that much savings, at constant speed the reduction in mass of the rim may have some effect on the rolling resistance of the wheel on bumpy roads, but on smooth surface struggling to see how.

Perhaps the figures are worked out on an excessive stop/ start urban cycle.

[smciner1]

It is good to see the Carbon Rims coming along. I was studying at Deakin when these were first developed. I remember helping laying up a few of the original sets in 13" x 6" for our Formula SAE Car in 2004. They were certainly a pain to lay up properly and took a lot of work, but geez they were light!. A couple of the friends who came up with them went on to develop them from the SAE Car with our Lecturer at the time.

They have certainly come a long way from the originals. Well done!

[Bossxr8]

Half the weight of an alloy wheel and much stronger.

[Road Games]

Originally Posted by sudszy

While Im familiar with how to calculate the amount of energy required to get a mass m of radius r up to a particular speed, Id like to see how they came up with that much savings, at constant speed the reduction in mass of the rim may have some effect on the rolling resistance of the wheel on bumpy roads, but on smooth surface struggling to see how.

Perhaps the figures are worked out on an excessive stop/ start urban cycle.

Well ...

Every 10kg of unsprung weight is equivelant to 20kgs total weight loss in 1/4 mile racing world..

In the real world this would certainly improve economy as well...

Don't bother explaining your scientific reasons as to why this isnt true to me, the facts are i ran rims and tyres that weighed 60kgs instead of my normal wheels at 110kgs and i ran 6 tenths quicker and a new PB!

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by XR6menace

Well ...

Every 10kg of unsprung weight is equivelant to 20kgs total weight loss in 1/4 mile racing world..

In the real world this would certainly improve economy as well...

Don't bother explaining your scientific reasons as to why this isnt true to me, the facts are i ran rims and tyres that weighed 60kgs instead of my normal wheels at 110kgs and i ran 6 tenths quicker and a new PB!

Ive already acknowledged that severe stop start motoring( perhapslike quarter mile racing) would create a difference, but I was after an explanation on how it could make a 7% difference in normal driving, sorry you have wasted your time by responding.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Ive already acknowledged that severe stop start motoring( perhapslike quarter mile racing) would create a difference, but I was after an explanation on how it could make a 7% difference in normal driving, sorry you have wasted your time by responding.

Reduction in drive train power loss?

[Road Games]

*sigh* I don't think sudzsy has ever driven a car mate ...

[mik]

very impressive indeed, but will the cost be impressive too?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by mik

very impressive indeed, but will the cost be impressive too?

Initially, most likely.

However as with all new technologies, as they become more mainstream the costs should begin to decrease significantly.

Its no different really to how the price of LCD HD TV's has decreased over time.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by mik

very impressive indeed, but will the cost be impressive too?

Is anyone willing to estimate the cost of these?

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Reduction in drive train power loss?

Thanks for your input.

yes, with more massive wheels there will be added frictional loss through the drivetrain when accelerating due to the extra drive force required to change the rotational speed of the wheels

But at consistent speeds/normal driving there is only the extra load caused by another 20kg or so of rolling resistance due to the overall increase in mass, the equivalent of an extra 20kg in the boot, which doesnt explain a 7% fuel savings

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Thanks for your input.

yes, with more massive wheels there will be added frictional loss through the drivetrain when accelerating due to the extra drive force required to change the rotational speed of the wheels

But at consistent speeds/normal driving there is only the extra load caused by another 20kg or so of rolling resistance due to the overall increase in mass, the equivalent of an extra 20kg in the boot, which doesnt explain a 7% fuel savings

More massive wheels? I assume you mean wheels with a higher mass right? Ie. heavier?

You know how people talk about driveline losses when comparing RWKW to engine KW?

Energy is lost in a few different ways, energy can be lost in the form of heat, and it can be lost due to the need to overcome the mass (inertia) of each component of the drive train. This continues down through the flywheel, gear box, drive shaft, diff, axles etc all the way down to the wheels.

By reducing the weight of the wheels, you reduce by a considerable margin the amount of energy required to turn those wheels. Remember, the wheels are probably one of the heaviest individual components of the drive train, so this could have a fairly large impact.

Reduce the energy loss and you reduce the amount of energy the engine needs to produce for a specific goal, resulting in lower fuel usages.

I figure there has to be a reason high performance cars tend to use lighter weight drive train (inc.engine internals) and forged wheels. That reason is one word, efficiency.

Thats the way I've thought about it, but my undergrad wasn't engineering. So maybe an Engineer or engineering student can clarify or correct me if I am wrong?

[SpoolMan]

More info:
Re-inventing the wheel
Fri, 19 Aug 2011 11:02:00 +1000

Carbon Revolution (CFusion), a Victorian company that, in partnership with Deakin University, produced the world's first one piece carbon fibre wheel, has been showcased at a Clean Technology Showcase in Canberra, an event launched by the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard and Innovation Minister Senator Kim Carr.

The Gillard Government is helping Australian businesses develop clean energy technologies as part of its Plan for a Clean Energy Future.

Minister Carr said the power and potential of clean technology was demonstrated by Carbon Revolution (CFusion)

"This Australian company is commercialising the world’s first one piece carbon fibre automotive wheel, which offers huge weight savings and therefore efficiency and performance benefits to the global automotive industry," he said.

Carbon Revolution is now collaborating directly with the world’s largest and most sophisticated vehicle manufacturers in Europe to bring this technology to the market in large volumes.

The company's unique, step-change technology offers huge weight savings to the global automotive industry. Efficiency benefits and therefore greenhouse gas emission reductions of between 3% and 8% are achievable.

In close partnership with Deakin University, Carbon Revolution developed its unique wheel made in one piece from carbon fibre. It is lighter, stronger and ultimately safer than alloy wheels.

“We have already completed the testing to prove that that it is stronger and safer,” said Jake Dingle, Executive Chairman of Carbon Revolution.

“Testing conducted in Germany over the past 24 months with the World renowned Fraunhofer Institute and with the IABG automotive and aerospace laboratory in Munich has proven the superiority of the technology over conventional aluminium wheels, both in terms of its durability and its impact resistance”

“What we are doing is creating an entirely new product, and a very timely one in the era of a carbon tax, that will help produce the coming generation of lightweight, sustainable motor vehicles.

“At the same time, we are creating a completely new industry around motor vehicles in Australia, one with huge export potential in Europe, the US, China and India, and the ability to create between 180 and 200 jobs in Australia in the short term and significantly more in the medium and longer term.

“The first major production facility is now under development and will be brought on-stream by early 2013, with a capacity of around 250,000 parts per year. This sounds large but really only represents 60,000 vehicles or the equivalent of one vehicle program for a large scale manufacturer.

“In the not too distant future we anticipate that much larger scale production facilities more typical of the scale of conventional aluminium wheel plants around the world will be brought on-stream”

The company is currently working with some of the world’s major vehicle manufacturers to bring this technology to market on their vehicles at high volumes.

As acknowledged world leaders in this field, Carbon Revolution has recently been engaged by certification bodies in Europe to assist with rapidly developing an industry standard for this new technology.

This is being driven by the extremely high priority that is now being placed on the reduction of vehicle emissions in Europe and the anticipated fast uptake of this technology once it is widely available.

Carbon Revolution recently received $1.4 million from the Federal Government’s Green Car Fund and this has provided a critical boost to activities as it gets ready to build this first factory in Australia.

Managing director, Dr Matt Dingle, a former Deakin engineering student and research academic, says the carbon fibre wheel has many applications, and not just in the automotive industry.

“The high performance end of the motor vehicle market was the first to get wind of this and take interest,” he said. “That’s because they’re not price sensitive and they are willing to invest.

“However, this innovation is most applicable to more mainstream, mass-produced vehicles, where emission reductions can be maximised due to high volumes. It is also highly applicable to the aerospace industry where the value of weight savings are even higher.”

“This is a brand new process and industry that all started with the company’s founders and Deakin collaborating on an engineering project. It has grown rapidly but three of the original inventors; Ashley Denmead, Brett Gass and I are still with the company.”

“We are extremely fortunate to now have a very strong team of people that covers the same breadth of skills and experience usually only found in much larger organisations.”

“This is a good model for what is possible through effective collaboration between industry and universities”

Dr Dingle said having access to the new Australian Future Fibre Research and Innovation Centre (AFFRIC) at Deakin was a real boon for Carbon Revolution.

“To have this facility developing new forms of carbon fibre that can be fed into our process and optimise our industrial supply chain is a huge advantage,” said Jake Dingle.

“Raw material is a significant part of our input cost, but the relationships that we are now establishing with the World’s major global carbon fibre producers indicate that our efficient process and scale will enable us to access very competitive fibre supply.

“This will ultimately result in the cost of these parts being very competitive with conventional aluminium wheels”

Deakin’s Deputy Vice-Chancellor, Professor Jane den Hollander, said the partnership with Carbon Revolution was an example of the way the university wants to work with the community and industry on research projects.

“Deakin is a relatively young university but this is testament to our commitment to excellence in research both in Victoria and throughout Australia,” she said.

source:
http://www.deakin.edu.au/itri/cmfi/n...ting-the-wheel

Key facts

Carbon Revolution is now collaborating directly with the world’s largest and most sophisticated vehicle manufacturers in Europe to bring this technology to the market in large volumes.

Managing director, Dr Matt Dingle, a former Deakin engineering student and research academic, says the carbon fibre wheel has many applications, and not just in the automotive industry.

The new Australian Future Fibre Research and Innovation Centre (AFFRIC) at Deakin was a real boon for Carbon Revolution.

[Road Games]

Thanks Mark ......................................... LOL

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

More massive wheels? I assume you mean wheels with a higher mass right? Ie. heavier?

is there any other intepretation?

Originally Posted by SteveJH

and it can be lost due to the need to overcome the mass (inertia) of each component of the drive train. This continues down through the flywheel, gear box, drive shaft, diff, axles etc all the way down to the wheels.

Steve, I have clearly talked about in normal driving, at consistent speed, the inertia of the driveline components is not an issue if their speed is not to be changed. Also, the energy isnt lost here it is stored as moving energy in these components.

Originally Posted by SteveJH

By reducing the weight of the wheels, you reduce by a considerable margin the amount of energy required to turn those wheels. ?

Again Steve, Im question how much energy that is at consistent speeds, by my reckoning its only a small increase in bearing friction at each wheel and the extra rolling resistance due to the car being 20kg heavier, not enough to count for even 1% more fuel use.

Originally Posted by SteveJH

I figure there has to be a reason high performance cars tend to use lighter weight drive train (inc.engine internals) and forged wheels. That reason is one word, efficiency.

No, its for performance, increased acceleration and increased braking performance as well as quicker recoil suspension response.

Im sorry Im not so accepting of claims that are just thrown out there.

[SteveJH]

Actually, roughly how much does a cast 18x8 or 19x8 rim weigh?

How much would a similar sized Forged aluminum rim weigh? And we know a Carbon rim should be lighter then that.

Now, yes 20kg is about 1% the weight of a falcon, but most cars sold in Australia these days are small and medium cars. So lets say they have a weight of 1300-1500kg. 20kg is a much larger % of a car that small.

And remember the claim was 3-8% gain.Depending on the car size and how much weight is actually saved, I'd say a 3-8% weight loss is probably doable, especially for small and medium cars.

So even using going by your argument it still works out as a significant improvement.

[MexicanBatman]

Sad to admit this but I had a Hyundai Getz

I put 18's on it, it used on average 1-1.5L/100km than with the 14" alloys I also had for it, they were approx 10kg heavier and 3% larger o.d

I didn't care cos it was cool :S

But acceleration braking and consumption were worse off because of this, I drive the same route to work everyday and it's a mix of 50% 60-70km zone 40% 100km zone and 10% 80km zone, I drive this at all times of the day traffic and no traffic at all, yet the average speed is less than 40km/h over the lifetime of trips (I used to keep every record LOL) and simply with no other changes than heavier wheels economy was 1-1.5L/100km higher

That's just normal driving... I don't know the science, but that is what happened to me

That said I'm not rushing out to buy cf wheels, there are plenty of light weight wheels already on the market already.

[SteveJH]

18" Wheels on a Getz? Did they fit? How thin was the Rubber smeared around the outside of the rims?

[buggo]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Ive already acknowledged that severe stop start motoring( perhapslike quarter mile racing) would create a difference, but I was after an explanation on how it could make a 7% difference in normal driving, sorry you have wasted your time by responding.

Okay when is it 'normal' to drive at a constant velocity, with zero external forces acting on the car, keeping a constant and consistent elevevation, never changing your direction and having 100% efficiency of all components. If this isn't your idea of 'normal' driving, then by having lighter wheels, or lighter anything, your economy will benifit. What do you think a realsitic number would be?

You waste your time everytime you log on.