VW cutting EV production

[Syndrome]

https://electrek.co/2023/11/16/volks...lowing-demand/

[Syndrome]

"Arno Antilitz, Volkswagen’s CFO, explained on a media call last month that EV orders are down to 150,000 in Europe. That’s 50% lower than the 300,000 from last year."

[mad2]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

"Arno Antilitz, Volkswagen’s CFO, explained on a media call last month that EV orders are down to 150,000 in Europe. That’s 50% lower than the 300,000 from last year."

it would appear that most manufactures are cutting back/scaling down production now.

[Franco Cozzo]

How good is it - all the traditional manufacturers had a right laugh at Tesla, ignored them for so long, then all of a sudden tried to jump into it at the last minute when they saw the momentum behind it, with both feet and shot themselves in the foot

[kevino]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

"Arno Antilitz, Volkswagen’s CFO, explained on a media call last month that EV orders are down to 150,000 in Europe. That’s 50% lower than the 300,000 from last year."

And yet… Australia still awaits vw ev s.

??

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

And yet… Australia still awaits vw ev s.

??

I think Cupra are here

https://www.cupraofficial.com.au/sto...&t_cartype=new

I've seen precisely one on the road ever,

Looks good, but $65K DA is Telsa Model 3 money and you'd have rocks in your head if you're going to pay the same price as the established market leader for the new kid on the block with limited experience in manufacturing EVs. I wouldn't even buy their regular cars let alone their EV

This is like the university graduate coming in and demanding $150K PA in a wage negotiation.

Also look how **** their website is, the limited information on the car and the LHD photos - no effort what so ever so whats their car going to be like if they can't even do a website properly?

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I think Cupra are here

https://www.cupraofficial.com.au/sto...&t_cartype=new

I've seen precisely one on the road ever,

Spotted about 8 around the city. Seem popular.

[jpd80]

Hard to tell if we’ll ever see ID4 & ID5 here in Australia in any sort of numbers,
maybe the Tesla 3 and Y offer better value with more performance…


So I wonder if the VW based Ford EV Explorer and Capri will ever get to Australia?
Perhaps on their last gasp if Euro buyers reject them…..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

How good is it - all the traditional manufacturers had a right laugh at Tesla, ignored them for so long, then all of a sudden tried to jump into it at the last minute when they saw the momentum behind it, with both feet and shot themselves in the foot

I think it’s worse than that, all the early adopter groupies seem to have had their fill and moved on
maybe slowing economics and high interest rates have killed off a lot of the interest but also
I’ve heard that quite a few buyers are going back to ICE or hybrids because BEV charging was
inconvenient or badly underwater financially thanks to dealer markups…..

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I think it’s worse than that, all the early adopter groupies seem to have had their fill and moved on
maybe slowing economics and high interest rates have killed off a lot of the interest but also
I’ve heard that quite a few buyers are going back to ICE or hybrids because BEV charging was
inconvenient or badly underwater financially thanks to dealer markups…..

The quicker they **** off dealership model the better I reckon, the whole industry has been dragging its feet providing **** customer experiences for decades.

I should be able to pay for a car and it turns up in my driveway the next business day or same day delivery if I'm in Melbourne or Sydney metropolitan area.

[Sprintey]

John Cadogan has a good wrap up of the recent cuts to EV production here - it's happening big time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIpipeUI6zw

Typically colourful language, sharp mind behind it.

[Dr Smith]

Wonder if all those EU countries stipulating no new ICE vehicles past a set date extending out the deadlines are also affecting sales?

And let's be honest, without insulting anyone, until the Chinese EV's started increasing choices and offering pricing closer to ICE vehicles only companies, self-employed business owners and people with above average income are buying EV's....the 3 Tesla owners I know fall into the higher income bracket, or self-employed business owner and all 3 have solar panels on their homes as well or the business site has a charging point.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Wonder if all those EU countries stipulating no new ICE vehicles past a set date extending out the deadlines are also affecting sales?

And let's be honest, without insulting anyone, until the Chinese EV's started increasing choices and offering pricing closer to ICE vehicles only companies, self-employed business owners and people with above average income are buying EV's....the 3 Tesla owners I know fall into the higher income bracket, or self-employed business owner and all 3 have solar panels on their homes as well or the business site has a charging point.

The people I know who own EV's are just ordinary wage earners, they just decided EV's are the future and embracing this technology, mind you not all the EV's are Tesla but other brands.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Wonder if all those EU countries stipulating no new ICE vehicles past a set date extending out the deadlines are also affecting sales?

And let's be honest, without insulting anyone, until the Chinese EV's started increasing choices and offering pricing closer to ICE vehicles only companies, self-employed business owners and people with above average income are buying EV's....the 3 Tesla owners I know fall into the higher income bracket, or self-employed business owner and all 3 have solar panels on their homes as well or the business site has a charging point.

Considering how much gouging is going on from the established auto makers. The price of EV's isn't exactly that much more with these Chinese brands. The question is how well will these brands hold up over time. BYD seem to have a good reputation for EV's....but than their Hybrids seem to like to catch fire (not the battery side, but ICE part).

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Itsme

The people I know who own EV's are just ordinary wage earners, they just decided EV's are the future and embracing this technology, mind you not all the EV's are Tesla but other brands.

Yes but how many BEV's have there been prior to the Chinese brands coming in that sat in the range an average worker on $1200-1300/week nett could afford, throw in if they have a mortgage plus any vehicle finance at interest rates that have tripled.

In my own case, I'm a self employed business owner and there is no way in hell I'd pay $90k plus for an EV Vito to replace my diesel Vito, I lose range, power, towing, payload and pay upto $30K more... On a private vehicle side no EV makes me go "damn I've got to have one"...and I've got solar at home, offered free solar on my factory roof every second week and so can put a charger at work.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Yes but how many BEV's have there been prior to the Chinese brands coming in that sat in the range an average worker on $1200-1300/week nett could afford, throw in if they have a mortgage plus any vehicle finance at interest rates that have tripled.

In my own case, I'm a self employed business owner and there is no way in hell I'd pay $90k plus for an EV Vito to replace my diesel Vito, I lose range, power, towing, payload and pay upto $30K more... On a private vehicle side no EV makes me go "damn I've got to have one"...and I've got solar at home, offered free solar on my factory roof every second week and so can put a charger at work.

That's where Tesla have really messed up they should have produced a proper ute and a van instead of the stupid cybertruck.....a Tesla van with a bit of grunt and decent sized battery pack would suit you well , but that's Elon for you brilliant but weird

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by PooDog

That's where Tesla have really messed up they should have produced a proper ute and a van instead of the stupid cybertruck.....a Tesla van with a bit of grunt and decent sized battery pack would suit you well , but that's Elon for you brilliant but weird

1.3 million reservations is a lot of money to be holding and using while your potential buyers stay engaged.
Imagine being in the last 600k group waiting years for your vehicle to become available for scheduling.
The whole thing wreaks of showmanship and if Ford or GM did this, they would be called out big time.

On topic,
The MEB based vehicle toolkit cost a packet to develop ($17 billion) but worse than that,
VW being partly owned by one of the German states insisted on making jobs for the Union,
so the cars became labor intensive driving up the costs and slowing production - insane.
I hope Ford has the good sense to streamline production of the BEV Explorer and Capri
lest they suffer the same devastating fate as VW. It’s fun watching large corporates
twist and contort themselves avoiding the truth, it’s inevitable that things have to change

[kevino]

Originally Posted by jpd80

1.3 million reservations is a lot of money to be holding and using while your potential buyers stay engaged.
Imagine being in the last 600k group waiting years for your vehicle to become available for scheduling.
The whole thing wreaks of showmanship and if Ford or GM did this, they would be called out big time.

On topic,
The MEB based vehicle toolkit cost a packet to develop ($17 billion) but worse than that,
VW being partly owned by one of the German states insisted on making jobs for the Union,
so the cars became labor intensive driving up the costs and slowing production - insane.
I hope Ford has the good sense to streamline production of the BEV Explorer and Capri
lest they suffer the same devastating fate as VW. It’s fun watching large corporates
twist and contort themselves avoiding the truth, it’s inevitable that things have to change

I see what you did there JPD.

You didnt mention BEV Puma.

Is there a hidden reason?

[PooDog]

I agree the whole things just weird...it's gone on for years ,waiting for something that looks like it's made in someone's garage ?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kevino

I see what you did there JPD.

You didnt mention BEV Puma.

Is there a hidden reason?

No, I left it out of the discussion because the BEV Puma is Ford based subcompact platform, It covers the segment below the vehicles discussed.

It also shows what Ford could have done with evolution of C2 into proper BEV
but instead, felt compelled to run off and waste money with VW on a flawed solution.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by jpd80

No, I left it out of the discussion because the BEV Puma is Ford based subcompact platform, It covers the segment below the vehicles discussed.

It also shows what Ford could have done with evolution of C2 into proper BEV
but instead, felt compelled to run off and waste money with VW on a flawed solution.

Yes but Ford get to make Vw Transporters and Amaroks


Win win?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kevino

Yes but Ford get to make Vw Transporters and Amaroks


Win win?

Even more so when you consider that Ford is replacing MEB batteries, controllers and motor drives with their own parts…
(Last Gen Amorok and Transporter used common platform, now defunct sth America and Hannover plants?)

VW also wrongly assumed that it would be allowed to sell Amorok in North America…..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by PooDog

I agree the whole things just weird...it's gone on for years ,waiting for something that looks like it's made in someone's garage ?

LOL, good comparison IMO,
The constant disruption and changing market environment has really thrown many corporates for a loop.
I’m sue they thought of electrification at its easiest, just an extension of PHEVs, drop the ICE and add more batteries.
^^^^^a quick and dirty change = lazy job done that was an unachievable economic nightmare.

Well, probably achievable with the correct product envelope to begin with, takes much better planning.
Anytime the ICE engineering and development silos saw EVs coming, they were dismissed /sabotaged
in favour of their own projects because career lifers could see their jobs evaporating before retirement..

So imagine, e Focus wasn’t developed by Ford but by Magna with the intend of demonstrating their
electrical motors and controls, low range but a great stepping stone to a proper long range BEV.
It was a low cost project that demonstrated what was achievable with the right data and skill set.

So when Ford discovered that Euro buyers preferred crossovers, it changed e Focus to the C-Max
but because it’s data was so f***ing old they missed the switch away from minivans to SUVs.
The misbegotten pos that was E-Max was then ‘rescued’ more money spent to become Mach E.
Instead of making electric Focus Active and electric Escape, Ford chiefs doubled down on a sporty SUV,
the Mach E GT was used to sell Bill Ford on the idea of using Mustang name, the rest is history..

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Wonder if all those EU countries stipulating no new ICE vehicles past a set date extending out the deadlines are also affecting sales?

And let's be honest, without insulting anyone, until the Chinese EV's started increasing choices and offering pricing closer to ICE vehicles only companies, self-employed business owners and people with above average income are buying EV's....the 3 Tesla owners I know fall into the higher income bracket, or self-employed business owner and all 3 have solar panels on their homes as well or the business site has a charging point.

Euro 7 emission standards were scheduled for 2025, now they have been pushed back at least 5 years.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Euro 7 emission standards were scheduled for 2025, now they have been pushed back at least 5 years.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Euro 7 emission standards were scheduled for 2025, now they have been pushed back at least 5 years.

LOL, we knew this would probably happen because Euro manufacturers cannot meet it yet
but also cannot make their BEVs work either for profit or being able to sell to customers,
What a cluster…….

Isn’t it amazing how the poor mug that pays for vehicles gets shafted for ideology
while every other free loading whacker get to pass on costs and make a packet.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by jpd80

LOL, we knew this would probably happen because Euro manufacturers cannot meet it yet
but also cannot make their BEVs work either for profit or being able to sell to customers,
What a cluster…….

Isn’t it amazing how the poor mug that pays for vehicles gets shafted for ideology
while every other free loading whacker get to pass on costs and make a packet.

Unless
Those same manufacturers are Tesla or Chinese
Or in China in a jv


JPD

Do you see Ford Europe surviving?
I know they have downsized.
Is it enough?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kevino

Unless
Those same manufacturers are Tesla or Chinese
Or in China in a jv


JPD

Do you see Ford Europe surviving?
I know they have downsized.
Is it enough?

Basically, yes because in spite of everything I said, Europe is pressing forward with EVs and Ford
will have Puma, Capri, Explorer and Mach E as well as E Transit - Transit van is the the profit earner
and will carry the ship until people come onboard with electric vehicles.
Not that they will willingly share any of those vehicles with us unless they crash and burn there…

Ford Aus needs C2 2.0 EB & hybrids like Maverick and Bronco Sport as something
interesting to sell below Ranger and give dealers some foot traffic.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Basically, yes because in spite of everything I said, Europe is pressing forward with EVs and Ford
will have Puma, Capri, Explorer and Mach E as well as E Transit - Transit van is the the profit earner
and will carry the ship until people come onboard with electric vehicles.
Not that they will willingly share any of those vehicles with us unless they crash and burn there…

Ford Aus needs C2 2.0 EB & hybrids like Maverick and Bronco Sport as something
interesting to sell below Ranger and give dealers some foot traffic.

2.0EB
Ford Escape
Tried and failed . Don’t know why had three as loan cars and they were are a nice drive. For my application fuel use is too high but for most not an issue.
Q Ford had about seven Escapes and an EV Transit in their facility last Saturday when I strolled around plus three Puma and 100,000 Ranger Everest thingys.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Basically, yes because in spite of everything I said, Europe is pressing forward with EVs and Ford
will have Puma, Capri, Explorer and Mach E as well as E Transit - Transit van is the the profit earner
and will carry the ship until people come onboard with electric vehicles.
Not that they will willingly share any of those vehicles with us unless they crash and burn there…

Ford Aus needs C2 2.0 EB & hybrids like Maverick and Bronco Sport as something
interesting to sell below Ranger and give dealers some foot traffic.

Ford Aus needs someone high enough up in HQ in the US to "force" Ford Europe to hand over enough vehicles that they don't arrive 2 years after release, and then when they do arrive potential buyers have moved on...