Bad press for Toyota and Lexus........something different

[monaroCountry]

Those list were for unmodified factory cars..................japanese testers stretched the definition of unmodified with sly changes to the computer, boost and some blatant changes to tires which aparently as some have argued are legal and comes as option in Japan (just not the rest of the world).

Changes to the electronics and boost are pretty hard to determine unless the cars are taken to some sort of testing facility i.e. dyno.

Japan has been known to fuddle with their power ratings though.

Some might believe the sub 8 skyline myth but I find it hard to believe that a car weighing 1600-1700kg, 206kw can achieve a 7.59 ring time. Especially when a car like the vette with 375kw and far lighter can only achieve a time of 7.42.

[MITCHAY]

You can't be sure that there weren't tweaks in any of the cars that were tested. It's just easier to do with a turbo car. You can't guarentee that the internals of any of the cars are stock unless you strip it down too. Why you would want to enter a modified car and claim it as stock is beyond me anyways.

Surely though a 29 second difference between the two times set for the GTR would have need significant modifications which would be noticeable?

[monaroCountry]

You can't be sure that there weren't tweaks in any of the cars that were tested. It's just easier to do with a turbo car. You can't guarentee that the internals of any of the cars are stock unless you strip it down too. Why you would want to enter a modified car and claim it as stock is beyond me anyways.

Surely though a 29 second difference

Look at other cars on the list, their power, weight and dynamics are far better at getting a better time than the GTR. A car with 206kw and weighing around 1600+kg should not get a time like that unless modified.

Manufacturers use a good time of the ring for bragging. Nissan simply cheated!!!!!!!

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by killer_taxi

I did say, “or buy a FPV or HSV of course”. I couldn’t see an F6 beating a STi or Evo on any track (apart from an oval). The weight difference is huge and the STi and Evo get the added benefit of AWD grip. I could be wrong, but on a track like the Nurburgring with so many corners, the Evo and STi being able to carry more corner speed would be able to keep the speed up. The R32 did pop into my mind. However, after checking some performance figures I found that it wasn’t quite as fast as the STi and Evo (around a second slower everywhere).

With the differences between entry models and top of the range performance models (examples: Lancer, Impreza, Falcon, A4, 3-Series), you’re simplifying it way too much. There’s more to it then just slapping on some stiff suspension and throwing in a more powerful motor. For example, you see companies like AMG and BMW M division at the Nurburgring testing out their cars around the track to perfect there handling and performance. There are hours upon hours of testing. Parts have to be engineered, tested, configured, then made to work together in a reliable product.

Furthermore, I think it would be best if we agree to disagree. I’m not agreeing with most things your saying and I think things are likewise over on the other end. So I’ll leave it there and move on.

Peace.

Agree to disagree, I agree.

One thing though, not to argue any further or anything, the Nurburgring-Nordschleife favours cars with higher straight line ability. If you look at the times of the Lotus Elise, they're pretty poor, with cars that would otherwise get slaughtered by one on a windy road thrashing it. There are three big and/or main straights, each at over 1 kilometre long, cars like the Elise will get walked away from by bigger, more powerful machines on that part, and no amount of cornering ability will save them.

Here are some times just for comparison...

8:32 - Lotus Exige - Sport Auto 08/04

8:06 - Mercedes-Benz SL55 AMG - Sport Auto 04/02

See, the Elise, which can hit 100km/h in something like 5.2 seconds, the 1/4 mile in about 13.5 seconds and tops out at 220-240km/h, weighs less then 1000kg and handles like mad is 26 seconds slower then the SL55, which hits 100km/h in 4.5 seconds, deals with the 1/4 in 12.7 seconds, is limited to 250km/h but can hit a de-restricted top speed of 320km/h and weighs 2150kg. Its superior acceleration and top end give it the advantage.

On something tigher and less straight-line rewarding, the SL55 wouldn't stand a chance.

So yeah, N-Ring = advantage to cars with good straight line power.

[Rev28K]

Yup, the long straights favour the big engine brigade (then again the little engined guys may have had to go for lower gearing to try and match their acceleration with less cubes). My little Hondas times are a lot closer to the big guys at “slow” tracks like Winton (160ish top speed) than at the higher speed tracks like Calder (190ish), Sandown (195ish) and Phillip Island (190-200ish) where I am just getting in to 5th. I can sometimes go deeper under brakes but I lack all of the acceleration out of the corners and push along the straight.

Carroll Smith was saying in one of his books that Vmax was over-rated seeing as the amount of time that a car usually spent on a circuit at highest speed was usually such a small part of a lap time, he’d rather concentrate on good torque, tractability, acceleration out of turns, etc. Of course when you’ve got bloody long straights their importance increases.

Given the prestige of setting the quickest time at the ring I’d expect a few guys to cheat a bit. The GTR time has always been thought of as dodgy Porsche have run there simulations and reckon that the time wasn’t right for a stock GTR. Jan Magnussen looked like he was pushing the Z06 very hard to try and break the old 911 GT3’s record and he claimed that he was right on the edge (seeing photos of the car about a metre in the air seems to confirm it). Some of the manufacturer’s that have claimed records (Radical SR8, Donkervort, etc) also say that they could have gone quicker (slight aero troubles, a few mistakes here and there, etc) which might rattle their rivals a bit (and convince the public that a quicker time is possible) Personally I am hanging out for the Caparo’s lap times.

Remember the fiddles that went on with the Jag XJ220 so that it could claim to be a faster car (aero tweaks, no cats, etc) than the Bugatti EB110? The McLaren F1 had rumours of engine fiddles for it’s record run at the VW track. When prestige is on the line I expect everyone to cheat a little bit (or at least present an optomised “best possible case” example).

[monaroCountry]

The GTR time has always been thought of as dodgy Porsche have run there simulations and reckon that the time wasn’t right for a stock GTR. Jan Magnussen looked like he was pushing the Z06 very hard to try and break the old 911 GT3’s record and he claimed that he was right on the edge (seeing photos of the car about a metre in the air seems to confirm it).

I think this was the pic your talking about.............with Jan Magnussen behind the wheel. Ive always been impressed by Jan's driving skills, definately one of the top drivers in the world.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Rev28K

Remember the fiddles that went on with the Jag XJ220 so that it could claim to be a faster car (aero tweaks, no cats, etc) than the Bugatti EB110? The McLaren F1 had rumours of engine fiddles for it’s record run at the VW track. When prestige is on the line I expect everyone to cheat a little bit (or at least present an optomised “best possible case” example).

Yep, the F1 was fiddled to hit 391km/h. The normal, non-fiddled version can hit 386km/h and no-more. Which is why the Koenigsegg CCR took the McLaren's record with 'only' a 388km/h run. The 391 is recognised by no-one, it wasn't a stock car.