Performance - rwkw figures vs. 1/4 times

[Romulus]

Which one of these measures a cars performance, e.g. a car making 500+rwkw or a car capable of a low 11/hi 10 second pass? I've carried this over from the XR6T/F6 forum, which seems to have quite a lot of big rwkw cars but so far have not delivered the blistering times.

I'm of the opinion that performance constitutes a car capable of running a quick et. Would like to know other peoples opinion of this.

[xbgs351]

How about stopping and cornering?

[Falcon Coupe]

MPH shows true power, until that comes a dyno is only a piece of paper.
To ET well they need the right setup.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

How about stopping and cornering?

True, and very relevant, but most people dont judge a cars performance (although it should be) by it's cornering and stopping ability, rather "what's she run mate".

[Steady ED]

Originally Posted by M6 XR6T

True, and very relevant, but most people dont judge a cars performance (although it should be) by it's cornering and stopping ability, rather "what's she run mate".

Alot of people judge it by chassis dyno numbers too ;)

It's very subjective, and it's down to the cars owner as to how they choose to measure the cars performance, be it chassis dyno, quarter mile, track time, or how it overtakes semis on country highways.
Which one they choose is not really anyone elses business, even if it does mean there are 500rwkw XR6Ts that have never, and will never, make a pass.

Just to play devils advocate a bit more, if a car runs a quick ET with slicks and front runners does it still count?
What about a stripped interior?
90/10s?
C16?
There are cars pulling great numbers down the strip, that will never see the street. At least not in the same trim they run at the drags.
Does that still mean they have more 'performance' then a car that pulls 500rwkw at Joe Blogs Dyno Day, but is on the street every weekend?

All too complicated, I think I'll just enjoy having fun with my car, be it running it down the strip or going to a dyno day :

[prydey]

an E.T. is a more accurate guide to a car's potential than a dyno figure but i don't believe either are definitive. too many variables on each although enough runs down the strip should give a pretty good average of what she'll do.

i see a lot of people claiming high rwkw numbers but only running average 1/4 times. a lot of dyno's get run in 'shootout' mode which although it is meant to be fudge free, i think it still gives happy figures esp at shows so that it is more entertaining to the crowd.

down the strip a large percentage of a good time is in the launch. as said if your suspension setup is not the best and you have a decent amount of power going to the rear hoops, you will not be able to use the full potential and the resulting 1/4 time will seem like your car is not all you claim it to be.

just go by the seat of the pants feel. if it brings a smile to your face then thats all that matters.

[exrtnz]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

How about stopping and cornering?

Yep you are right, a performance car must be able to stop damn quick and corner just as good. Wouldn't be too worried about 1/4 mile times of a 500rwkw car unless its sole purpose is the drag strip.
Id rather have a car that high HP and can perform on any road rather than a 9sec E.T .

[prydey]

i think you guys may be missing the point of the thread. i don't think he's asking what makes a good performance car.

to me it seemed it was comparing rwkw figures to e.t. times and which was a more accurate assessment of the car's power. e.g. ba xr8 with 230rwkw running a 14.6 equals a happy dyno or a poor performance on the strip.

[blur1]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

MPH shows true power, until that comes a dyno is only a piece of paper.
To ET well they need the right setup.

this is the correct answer! :

[Whitey-AMG]

I guess the DYNO figures are the "potential" for what the car can achieve.
the ET is where you find out what the car is "actually" capable of in its present form.

Even judging a car by its ET aint always a good guide.........There are a number of TURBO cars doing excellent times..........until you find out that they have to spool for a couple of seconds. Likewise there are many HiPo V8 powered cars that are quite sluggy down low but only pick up in the mid - to top end........

Looking at the 60ft time is always a good counter indicator to get a better overall picture of the performance and "set up" as well.

Either way, performance is in the eye of the beholder............if you're entering a DYNO Comp.........your ET doesn't really mean much and vice versa. But there are so many variables that it can be difficult to make any assumptions.

If a car weighs 2100 kg and has 300RWKW, is it a better performance car or more fun to drive than a car that weighs 1600 kg and has 200RWKW ?????

Tyres, gearing, ambient temperatures, trans type.........the list goes on.

[Rev28K]

Power from an engine dyno (not a chassis dyno) should be more repeatable. RWKW always has a “fiddle” factor in it.

Quarter mile times can be hard to repeat (especially for amateurs, but I guess that is half the fun). Previous posts are on the money when they say that MPH at the end of the run is a good no BS way of showing who’s engine is the toughest between similar cars.

I tend to prefer lap times as a good indicator of overall performance. Partly because I’ve got low FWKW and my lap times are only a bit behind some 6’s and 8’s.
To me the thrill of big power is enhanced by being able to brake later, accelerate earlier and take turns “flat”.

[FRDPWR]

it comes down to how the car is setup and what it was created for Dyno car or drag car. i know a car that makes 500rwk but only runs 11.2/11.4. my esp only makes 350rwk and it runs 10.50. the differnce is that one is a dyno car and the other is a drag car!

[falzoony]

Torque is a big thing to. theres a good video on youtube that someone posted in another thread. If I find it I'll post it.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by FRDPWR

it comes down to how the car is setup and what it was created for Dyno car or drag car. i know a car that makes 500rwk but only runs 11.2/11.4. my esp only makes 350rwk and it runs 10.50. the differnce is that one is a dyno car and the other is a drag car!

or maybe the car just doesn't have 500rwkw!!

[PepeLePew]

MPH

KG

Setup (physical AND tune)

Strippers setting unrealistic times due a reduction in item 2 making full weight cars feel like dyno queens

Nuff said.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by Rev28K

Previous posts are on the money when they say that MPH at the end of the run is a good no BS way of showing who’s engine is the toughest between similar cars.

True, but it doesn't always translate into being a "quick" car. ( quick = time from start to finish over the quarter for the benefit of this post)

My old ESP would consistently run 13.9 quarters but at only a paltry 96 - 97 MPH.

I found it to be a quicker car than others that were doing 99 - 100 MPH trap times. They obviously had bigger HP motors, but it wasn't always coming together in the right way.............so in a real world situation, mine was actually "quicker".......

At the end of the day, I guess its what you want to brag about...... A Big HP motor, a fast car , a quick car, or just the highest RWKW on earth !!!!!!!!

Whatever makes you happy.....

[nommic]

I'd say it's a matter of how hard it pulls.

Pulls chicks that is :

But seriously, I'm not all that concerned by 1/4 mile or dyno figures. If the car "feels" like it is performing well, then that's all that matters. Some of the best fun I've had driving was chucking my old Corolla through corners like a man possessed.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ESP

True, but it doesn't always translate into being a "quick" car. ( quick = time from start to finish over the quarter for the benefit of this post)

My old ESP would consistently run 13.9 quarters but at only a paltry 96 - 97 MPH.

I found it to be a quicker car than others that were doing 99 - 100 MPH trap times. They obviously had bigger HP motors, but it wasn't always coming together in the right way.............so in a real world situation, mine was actually "quicker".......

At the end of the day, I guess its what you want to brag about...... A Big HP motor, a fast car , a quick car, or just the highest RWKW on earth !!!!!!!!

Whatever makes you happy.....

I agree, its the age old arguement that MPH = HP, but in reality its not 100% accurate, even if its 95% accurate for a 400hp motor thats + or - 20hp, and plenty of debates have been waged over + or - 20HP...

Or.. if you look at the other way @100mph 5% variation or (5 mph) could calculate to be over 50HP...
At the end of the day MHP CAN BE a good indicator of INSTALLED IN CAR HP/KG, (or drag racing HP) and more accurate when the car is set-up correctly specifically for drap racing...
Everyone has a different way to measure it, none are totally wrong or totally right, just different that's all.

[XR06T]

different strokes for different folks..

i can appreciate a 400rwkw dyno sheet as much as i can appreciate a 10sec slip.

overall though i would say mph is the best indicator, imo

[4Vman]

Yep, at the end of the day if you're a "Drag racer" you'll swear by MPH=HP, if you're a "Circuit racer" you'll swear by engine dyno's or FWHP and if you're a "Street racer" you'll swear by RWHP or Chassis dyno's.!

Each will produce a number only relevant to their specific interest, they'll rarely match, and none will ever agree which is most accurate!!

[Chris]

You can fool a dyno - you cant fool the 1/4 mile.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Chris

You can fool a dyno - you cant fool the 1/4 mile.

What about wheelspin which produces a higher MPH or bogging which causes a lower MPH?
I think all can have their flaws.

[Stefan]

Spot on 4Vman, MPH is only an indicator with cars set up for drag racing. You cannot compare the MPH on a car with 3.0s in the diff to a car with 4.11 and expect to be able to compare the HP of their respective engines.

"Amature" drag racers think that the concepts used by professionals to compare and analyse performance of real drag cars can be readily applied to steetcars....this is unfortunately not the case.

[SpoolMan]

I can only comment on mine.
11.44@126.8mph = 350 rwkw = 1910 kg with driver that’s race weight, 1.96 - 60 foot on Toyo tyres.
I am happy with the set-up.... the way its driven to the track is the way its driven on the street.
Everyone is looking for a different set-up, although the dyno queen class seems to be growing bigger than the track class.
Dyno is just a tuning tool and good for a social gathering..
What do people regard as more important a track time or a dyno sheet?

[prydey]

a dyno sheet says you 'can' run a certain time. a ET sheet says you 'have' run a certain time. there is a difference.

to the average person if you start going on about traction/setup etc etc after putting in a poorer than expected time its going to sound like excuses. its like rock,paper scissors. a good e.t. sheet will beat a good dyno sheet every time down the pub.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

I can only comment on mine.
11.44@126.8mph = 350 rwkw = 1910 kg with driver that’s race weight, 1.96 - 60 foot on Toyo tyres.
I am happy with the set-up.... the way its driven to the track is the way its driven on the street.
Everyone is looking for a different set-up, although the dyno queen class seems to be growing bigger than the track class.
Dyno is just a tuning tool and good for a social gathering..
What do people regard as more important a track time or a dyno sheet?

Track time without a doubt.

I think dyno figures are easy to achieve/fudge. You can crank another 10psi boost and 5 degrees of timing in a tune in the turbo 6's (and it does get done), run the car on Sonoco racing fuel and pickup 100-150rwkw for a dyno run that lasts 3-4 seconds. Or for that matter you can run your car like was done at the Perth AME show where a certain TT Commodore made 1900rwhp, only to discover the IT was reading 230 deg C and spiked the reading by 40%.

As far as 'setup' goes, only the hardcore are going to change springs/shocks, gut interior, run slicks and front runners to achieve their best times. I think most of us will go to the extent of running M/T ET Streets and remove their spare/jack for a race meet.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by prydey

a good e.t. sheet will beat a good dyno sheet every time down the pub.

True that, its one format of measurement we can not debate or argue about...time never lies..

[JACK250]

So when XR8's are meant to be 270kw or whatever they are, is that at the wheels or flywheel?

[Quicksand]

Ive had a quick flick through this discussion i am pretty sure this hasn't been mentioned yet but i think the role of the DRIVER is important. I am sure you have all seen high performanced cars get mauled by a less powerful car in a 1/4 mile drag due to the drivers inability to get the best out of his machine etc. I know it's not true to the original thread but hey we have all seemed to digress...

For me, track time over RWKW as only track time encompasses all of the factors everyone has been discussing about

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by JACK250

So when XR8's are meant to be 270kw or whatever they are, is that at the wheels or flywheel?

260 kw's mate, and thats at the flywheel,probly around 180-190kw's at the wheels.