Protest

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Yes Sydney has a crime problem, has expensive insurance and possibly more idiot P platers. The problem is the law doesn't fix any of the problems people have been complaining about.

Look, I agree that just instigating a no turbo, no V8, no modified car clause to P platers isn't going to solve the problem. That education needs to be effectively given to young drivers in conjunction to limiting the vehicles they're allowed to drive.

I also freely admit that some young drivers will do bonehead things no matter what car they drive. Stopping them from driving hi-po cars will likely limit how much goes wrong when the bonehead gene kicks in.

Tell me, in your absolute honest opinion.. who's more likely to become unstuck behind the wheel, a bonehead in a 1.3l Escort (my first car) or a bonehead in a Silvia Turbo? If you believe that 'bonehead driver' is equally capable to a) be a public menace, b) come a cropper; in both cars then I don't know what else to say to you.

[Steffo]

Wow.. and I thought Blacktown was bad. Funny though, when we lived in Epping, the quotes I used to get were at least $1000 cheaper then the stuff I get in Blacktown now.

Insurance dictates that I won't be driving much more then a 6cyl Forte for a long time though, regardless of that law or not. Couldn't afford to insure anything else.

Originally Posted by Rodp

Look, I agree that just instigating a no turbo, no V8, no modified car clause to P platers isn't going to solve the problem. That education needs to be effectively given to young drivers in conjunction to limiting the vehicles they're allowed to drive.

I also freely admit that some young drivers will do bonehead things no matter what car they drive. Stopping them from driving hi-po cars will likely limit how much goes wrong when the bonehead gene kicks in.

Tell me, in your absolute honest opinion.. who's more likely to become unstuck behind the wheel, a bonehead in a 1.3l Escort (my first car) or a bonehead in a Silvia Turbo? If you believe that 'bonehead driver' is equally capable to a) be a public menace, b) come a cropper; in both cars then I don't know what else to say to you.

Well obviously the an idiot in a reasonably powerful RWD car is more likely to mess up than if they were driving a slow 1.3. The cause of the crash is still the bad driver not the car though, trying control different variables instead of dealing with the cause of accidents is a bad idea, speed enforcement in vic failing to have a positive effect on the road toll is a good example of why its a bad idea. If a car manufacturer sold a car that had a fault in it that caused a complete failure of the steering system they wouldnt be allowed to fix the problem by putting a 100 speedlimiter on the car even if it was mostly happening at 110 and only doing 100 reduced the risk a little. They would have to fix the steering because its the actual cause. The attitude of many of the non p platers is like no one caring about the fault because they don't own that model of car and no one actually needs to do 110 right?

The thing is they arnt being limited to a 1.3l escort, they are going to be driving marginaly slower cars that youd only notice much of a difference in if you were on a racetrack. There are also other hypothetical situations where it could have a negative affect. If a sensible driver is in a VZ exec instead of a VY I SS they would have an increased braking distance (which is a huge deal at least according to the government). You can come up with a hypothetical situation to justify just about anything.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Well obviously the an idiot in a reasonably powerful RWD car is more likely to mess up than if they were driving a slow 1.3. The cause of the crash is still the bad driver not the car though, trying control different variables instead of dealing with the cause of accidents is a bad idea, speed enforcement in vic failing to have a positive effect on the road toll is a good example of why its a bad idea. If a car manufacturer sold a car that had a fault in it that caused a complete failure of the steering system they wouldnt be allowed to fix the problem by putting a 100 speedlimiter on the car even if it was mostly happening at 110 and only doing 100 reduced the risk a little. They would have to fix the steering because its the actual cause. The attitude of many of the non p platers is like no one caring about the fault because they don't own that model of car and no one actually needs to do 110 right?
.

No-one can fix the CAUSE - it is called testosterone - 17 year old boys will always do stupid things, no amount of advance driver training ect is going to change that.

So they are doing the next best thing - trying to limit the destruction they can potentially cause.

It's call harm minimisation

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Well obviously the an idiot in a reasonably powerful RWD car is more likely to mess up than if they were driving a slow 1.3.

Not only would they be more likely to lose control of the Silvia, they'd be tempted more often to push the limits of the Silvia. I can't tell you how boring it was to drive a 1.3l Escort. My father owned his fair share of very nice cars and if my first car was something with balls, my chances of being here today would have been a lot less, I can assure you.

Now, would you expect an 18yr old P plater to be tempted more often to mash the go pedal on a Turbo'ed Silvia compared to a 2004 model Toyota Corolla? I'm sure both are capable of similar top speeds, but I'm sure one is a lot more adrenalin pumping than the other and one can achieve 0-100 much quicker than the other.

[gtfpv]

i think the pollies are on the right track with this one i nearly got run over buy a p plater today in a shopping centre car park the car was a vb commadore . the di##head was spinning the wheels around a corner i was on a pedestrian crossing he had to brake hard to stop . if he was in a monaro 308 i dare say he'd ve lost it and taken me out too. the point is people over 25 years of age just don't do this in a car park. and my 1st thoughts were and they wonder why the governments want to slow them down . not all p platers drive like this but unfortunately they are the only ones i see driving like di^^heads in innapropriate places.

Originally Posted by Rodp

Not only would they be more likely to lose control of the Silvia, they'd be tempted more often to push the limits of the Silvia. I can't tell you how boring it was to drive a 1.3l Escort. My father owned his fair share of very nice cars and if my first car was something with balls, my chances of being here today would have been a lot less, I can assure you.

Now, would you expect an 18yr old P plater to be tempted more often to mash the go pedal on a Turbo'ed Silvia compared to a 2004 model Toyota Corolla? I'm sure both are capable of similar top speeds, but I'm sure one is a lot more adrenalin pumping than the other and one can achieve 0-100 much quicker than the other.

Sometimes people with a decent car will drive it more carefully because they like it as well though and thrash a cheap car they don't care about.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Sometimes people with a decent car will drive it more carefully because they like it as well though and thrash a cheap car they don't care about.

See, you're avoiding the inevitable.

Ok, finish the next sentence as thoroughly as possible, feel free to be completely comprehensive, make it a large paragraph.

Allowing 18yr old P platers to drive hi performance cars whether it be a V8, turbo or modified 4 or 6 cyl helps improve road safety because...

Originally Posted by Rodp

See, you're avoiding the inevitable.

Ok, finish the next sentence as thoroughly as possible, feel free to be completely comprehensive, make it a large paragraph.

Allowing 18yr old P platers to drive hi performance cars whether it be a V8, turbo or modified 4 or 6 cyl helps improve road safety because...

It doesn't, but neither does making a group of people switch from r32 and r33 gtsts to 90s commodores.

[MITCHAY]

I see a lot more shitboxes outta control than i do high performance cars. Thats my experience. High performance doesnt mean just powerful it means better brakes, better suspension, and better handling.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

It doesn't, but neither does making a group of people switch from r32 and r33 gtsts to 90s commodores.

But you said this...

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Well obviously the an idiot in a reasonably powerful RWD car is more likely to mess up than if they were driving a slow 1.3.

So it's actually a good thing to have inexperienced drivers on our roads in cars that don't exceed the performance of the driver..?

...but then prefaced it with this

Originally Posted by lizardmech

The cause of the crash is still the bad driver not the car though

But the car may accentuate the outcome! That's the whole point! Drunk walking across the road in Cronulla would have made it to the other side had the driver of the Skyline been driving my old 1.3l Escort! The cause of the crash could well have been that the performance of the driver was less than the performance of the car!

You can't give me one safety benefit of allowing an inexperienced driver to operate a high performance car and you've conceeded that in a comparison between a RWD with a lot of go is more dangerous than the same nut behind the wheel of a less powerful car, yet limiting those drivers to what they can drive is a bad thing? I truly don't understand your logic.

I for one would feel much safer if I saw more P platers in 90's Commodores and less in R32's and R33. I've driven amongst both on our roads and to me the choice is crystal clear. A P plate on a Skyline means I'm keeping my distance.

[Biggoggs]

for one would feel much safer if I saw more P platers in 90's Commodores and less in R32's and R33. I've driven amongst both on our roads and to me the choice is crystal clear. A P plate on a Skyline means I'm keeping my distance.

Seriously? Personally, I'd be looking out for the battered up Commodores, VWs, and Camiras. A provisional, while arguably more inclined to be happy with the Happy Pedal, is more likely to drive carefully with a car that's going to have more serious consequences. A prang in an old Falcon or Commodore means you need to drag it home and bend it back, a prang in an R32 or R33 Skyline means a long stay at the body shop to fix up the 'fiber.

I don't 100% agree with the small 1.3 being safer than the 5+. While it might take longer to reach speed, as I've mentioned above, action vs. punishment makes me think they're going to hammer it more.
There is merit from a physics standpoint- faster cars mean faster speeds and worse accidents, but then you have to think of the enthusiasts. How many people (older ones in particular) had v8's in their youth? Did you treat it with kid gloves (ie didn't drive stupid because the car was worth a lot to you), or hammer it sideways all the way from A to B (because it was a fun piece of junk)?

btw, is the high-performance ban for the full three provisional years, or just one?

Originally Posted by Rodp

But you said this...
But the car may accentuate the outcome! That's the whole point! Drunk walking across the road in Cronulla would have made it to the other side had the driver of the Skyline been driving my old 1.3l Escort! The cause of the crash could well have been that the performance of the driver was less than the performance of the car!

They didn't introduce a P plater/1.3l escort law and the drunk could have stepped in front of a car doing 60 or 70 with the same result. He probably could have avoided dieing by not getting drunk as well, why is there no anti-drunk pedestrian laws being proposed? Street racing is a seperate issue from P platers drivings turbos. A stock r33 GTST isn't even that fast either they do 100 in about 7 seconds, they have around 180kw but don't have much toque due to an extremely short stroke.

[xyute]

Originally Posted by Rodp

They boxed me in and started to slow down, so I picked up the phone and started dialling while my window was down. They didn't stick around after that.

.

Alternatively. a bunch of turbo ricers tried that with a mate of mine in his warmed up XT GT. He eased up to the rear of the one in front of him and started pushing, needless to say Turbo ricer cant outrun the XT, Ricer bubbles everywhere. Not that i'm condoning that sort of thing. Was pretty though

[xyute]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Well older 6 cylinder commodores can do 200 km/h .

Only if you drop them out of a helicopter

[Biggoggs]

Originally Posted by xyute

Only if you drop them out of a helicopter

Well, 200 km/hr is 55.56 m/s, and earth's gravity is 9.8 m/s-2. Someone want to work out how high the helicopter needs to be? :P

lizardmech: It could've been worse- they might have been speeding in a 4wd or van

[gtfpv]

everyone has got it wrong it is not the safety of the car . the safest road or car will not stop the f###wit behind the wheel . we were all 18 once and all 18 year olds get older i for one will not do silly things in the wrong places any more the reasons for this is because 1 i've already done it when i was young and 2 i think more about the consequences. 3 i now know that a car can lose control before i think it will . so i'm far less likely to run off the road going round a bend in the wet and going through someones house then a p plater. regardless of what car i drive the p plater might go off the road in a voltwagon or a porsche the differance is at 80kph or 240kph.

[Biggoggs]

everyone has got it wrong it is not the safety of the car . the safest road or car will not stop the f###wit behind the wheel

Uhh no, you're basically recapping what we've all been saying, so you're on the same train of thought :P

I've had my license since Jan. (so still somewhat new), and like you were saying, it's a case of `been there, done that'. If I want to do something `questionable' I pick my time and place. I've been to 200, learned from it, and since then, I haven't gone over 100 since. Didn't take me long to find that straight-line speed is overrated...

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Biggoggs

Uhh no, you're basically recapping what we've all been saying, so you're on the same train of thought :P

I've had my license since Jan. (so still somewhat new), and like you were saying, it's a case of `been there, done that'. If I want to do something `questionable' I pick my time and place. I've been to 200, learned from it, and since then, I haven't gone over 100 since. Didn't take me long to find that straight-line speed is overrated...

GOOD POINT biggogs BUT THAT MEANS YOU WERE LUCKY , JUST LIKE I WAS some people wont be so lucky so performance makes a differance. and it is more dangerous. haven't read the whole thread but thre topic says protest.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Now, would you expect an 18yr old P plater to be tempted more often to mash the go pedal on a Turbo'ed Silvia compared to a 2004 model Toyota Corolla? I'm sure both are capable of similar top speeds, but I'm sure one is a lot more adrenalin pumping than the other and one can achieve 0-100 much quicker than the other.

My friend's older brother, who's 20 now I think, bought a brand new Nissan Pular 1.8 ST-L sedan when he was 18. 2003 model. He drove that little 92kW FWD slow boring car as if the thing was a Formula 1 car. He now owns a Nissan 180SX SR20DET which has a few decent mods.. 172rwkW. It's a low 13s street tyres / high 12s on slicks car. He drives it ALOT more carefully then he did the slow **** Pulsar.. because.. well, the Pulsar couldn't really scare you. He'd throw it around corners, do all sorts of shit. In the 180... he, well, doesn't. His car before the Pulsar was a 1990 Ford Corsair 2.4litre. He also drove that thing like he stole it. And his friends are all morons and they all own crap slow cars too. Putting them in anything short of a Citroen 2CV Charleston with a 36km/h top speed will not help. It'll just change the headlines from "P-PLATER DIES IN SKYLINE" to "P-PLATER DIES IN TOYOTA ECHO - WHAT DO WE DO NOW?"

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Steffo

My friend's older brother, who's 20 now I think, bought a brand new Nissan Pular 1.8 ST-L sedan when he was 18. 2003 model. He drove that little 92kW FWD slow boring car as if the thing was a Formula 1 car. He now owns a Nissan 180SX SR20DET which has a few decent mods.. 172rwkW. It's a low 13s street tyres / high 12s on slicks car. He drives it ALOT more carefully then he did the slow **** Pulsar.. because.. well, the Pulsar couldn't really scare you. He'd throw it around corners, do all sorts of shit. In the 180... he, well, doesn't. His car before the Pulsar was a 1990 Ford Corsair 2.4litre. He also drove that thing like he stole it. And his friends are all morons and they all own crap slow cars too. Putting them in anything short of a Citroen 2CV Charleston with a 36km/h top speed will not help. It'll just change the headlines from "P-PLATER DIES IN SKYLINE" to "P-PLATER DIES IN TOYOTA ECHO - WHAT DO WE DO NOW?"

...and yet I could point out a P plater I know that works with me that had 3 accidents in his Skyline (first car) sold it and got an Excel because he finally got it in his head that the car had too much power for him to handle or resist.

Swings and roundabouts.

[Biggoggs]

GOOD POINT biggogs BUT THAT MEANS YOU WERE LUCKY , JUST LIKE I WAS some people wont be so lucky so performance makes a differance. and it is more dangerous. haven't read the whole thread but thre topic says protest.

I don't really think it was lucky, just an absense of anything unlucky happening
Less-performance cars can't get as fast, but that never stops it's drivers from seeing how fast it goes.

He drives it ALOT more carefully then he did the slow **** Pulsar.. because.. well, the Pulsar couldn't really scare you. He'd throw it around corners, do all sorts of shit. In the 180... he, well, doesn't.

...and yet I could point out a P plater I know that works with me that had 3 accidents in his Skyline (first car) sold it and got an Excel because he finally got it in his head that the car had too much power for him to handle or resist.

It seems to me that their are provisionals who a) first hoon around in mostly low power FWD cars, then move up to more powerful cars, and b) buy a twin-turbo something first, and either write it off or can't afford it. I think the problem arises when gauging experience, when someone still on provisionals can handle a faster car. Perhaps it should be limited for the first six months or so only?