License suspension appeal (NSW)

Shonky · 10-03-2008, 01:41 PM

First up, can I say that I am not here to discuss how unfair the fine or suspension is, or how evil the government is for taking away my right to drive. I am here to get some advice from anyone who might know regarding an upcoming (Thursday) court appearance for an appeal against a licence suspension.

I am a P2 licence holder and I got fined speeding. My bad - I don't want to hear about how irresponsible I am and how it's all my fault and that I make baby jesus cry or whatever. Thankyou.

Now that that's out of the way, HI EVERYONE!

This Thursday I have a court appearance to appeal the suspension of my licence. Basically the circumstances of the offence are as follows.

Driving home (from volunteer charity work) late at night through the harbour tunnel via the ED. Got pinged by both cameras (ED and HT) at >15km/h and >30km/h respectively. 30km/h over got me a 3 month suspension and 4 points on its own, and with the 3 points from the other offense I am now up for a second suspension for the loss of points.

Basically I have paid the fine, and I am not disputing the offense at all. I am appealing the suspension on the grounds that:
1) I have learned my lesson by way of the first suspension,
2)I am an individual of good standing in the community (leader of a volunteer/charity youth organisation, volunteer with 2 emergency services, volunteer with a Speleo Society which aims to monitor and preserve cave ecosystems, no criminal record, otherwise clean driving history with no accidents)
3) my family live on a farm and I live in Sydney for work and uni (ie: familial isolation and loss of productivity to family business)
4) I live in an area with minimal public transport, and require a car to get to uni

Basically I am after a bit of information on courtroom procedure, what should I mention / leave out, what the magistrate will look for as well as any other advice anyone can suggest.

I have researched a variety of sources and the one thing I can't find is first hand, raw accounts of what will actually happen.

Thank you all in advance!

:

bob^ · 10-03-2008, 01:50 PM

What I can see there that might hurt you is you are a volunteer with the emergency services yet you were caught speeding. The magistrate might look at it as you know the apparent risks of speeding, and the outcomes considering some of the accidents you might have had to attend to, so should have known the consequences of your action.
Not having a dig or anything, just that is how I think the magistrate will look at it.

So it might be worth leaving that part out?

Shonky · 10-03-2008, 02:00 PM

Thanks for the reply Bob.

The emergency services I volunteer with are a maritime fire brigade and an event ambulance/medical organisation.

I don't deal with cars, motorists or accidents in either capacity.

Hopefully that will alleviate the issue which you refer to? The volunteering side of things is a very big part of my appeal as it supposedly demonstrates what a good community citizen I am...

Thanks heaps!

plext · 10-03-2008, 02:11 PM

If it were me, I would be including them, along with letters from each stating what a wonderful person I am. You really need to get over the message that you are a model upstanding citizen and this abberation is totally out of character and mainly due to lack of attentiveness after a long day toiling for the community.

OK, perhaps a bit over the top, but you follow my drift I'm sure.

Your case is better than a lot, assuming you present it correctly. Make a point of the fact that you do not dispute the facts and indeed have a deep seated feeling of contrition for the events. Also, it would not hurt to note that while this is not one breach, it is part of one trip and in no way displays a disinclination to learn from mistakes.

Get as many people who are willing from your volunteer groups to author character statements for you. Act very humble in the courtroom. Dress very well. Stick with facts and do not window dress, you have a fair bit in your favour.

I do not say you'll get it quashed, but this approach is most likely to yield results. End of the day it depends on the attitude of the magistrate, all you can do is try to make him look at you as something other than a long haired loon out to cause carnage on the highways.

Good luck with it.

XA-Coupe · 10-03-2008, 02:17 PM

don't waste your time asking for legal advice from a car forum, find a solicitor who specializes in road law. You'll just get yourself in deeper poo by listening to well meaning but untrained and inexperienced people on here.

4Vman · 10-03-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA-Coupe

don't waste your time asking for legal advice from a car forum, find a solicitor who specializes in road law. You'll just get yourself in deeper poo by listening to well meaning but untrained and inexperienced people on here.

^^^^^ The best advice you'll get here.

Shonky · 10-03-2008, 03:41 PM

Thanks Plext, XA and 4V.

Plext: Thanks! I agree that it is important to emphasize that I have learned from my mistakes. Good point about highlighting that it was two offenses but only one trip.

XA-Coupe and 4Vman: Done. ;) As I said earlier I am trying to get a broad spectrum of information from both sides of the coin. I have spent a lot of time researching law websites (government ones. not "larryslawstuff.org") and have spoken with a solicitor. I also sat in open court last week to try and get a better idea, and while they unfortunately didn't have any licence appeals, I did get a general feel for the court room which was good. Thanks for the very good advice though! You are correct that information from the internet in general can be sketchy!

XA-Coupe · 10-03-2008, 03:52 PM

One of the things that magistrates like to see is that you take these things seriously enough to hire one of their mates.. I mean a solicitor.
I've spent a lot of time in court rooms ( not as the defendant before anyone says it

) and they operate in a vacuum. Play their game and maximise your chances.
Make sure you get good legal representation, I have seen $1000 per hour barristers that Humphry B Bear could beat and local familiy solicitors who specialise in real estate law who are razor sharp and worth far more than they were getting paid.
Internet information is usually not just sketchy, it's wrong.

Shonky · 10-03-2008, 05:01 PM

Thanks XA-Coupe.

I am as broke as broke could be (uni student with a public service job from a farming family)

I really can't afford a lawyer unfortunately. :(

what would the going rate be?

Shonky · 10-03-2008, 05:06 PM

Thankyou. Read Post #1 next time before you post your useless 2 bobs worth.

I am exercising my legal right to an appeal. If you have an issue with that take it up with someone who cares.

XA-Coupe · 10-03-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shonky

Thanks XA-Coupe.

I am as broke as broke could be (uni student with a public service job from a farming family)

I really can't afford a lawyer unfortunately. :(

what would the going rate be?

Legal Aid is your friend. I have no idea where you are but break open the yellow pages ( or use the internet ! ) to find a Legal Aid centre near you. They do have a means test of sorts but if you are broke then you should be okay. A lot of their staff are useless police hating idiots who couldn't make it in the real world but some are there because they do give a damn, the trick is figuring out who is who.

kyro_02 · 10-03-2008, 05:53 PM

If you can't, or don't get legal aid before court.. you can get a duty lawyer when you turn up to court on the day... (in most cases!) like in my case!

Sourbastard · 10-03-2008, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selwonk

you do the crime,you gotta do the time!!!

I assume your parents are in jail for polluting the gene pool in a 60 zone.

Sourbastard · 10-03-2008, 06:19 PM

Anyone else want to complain about anyone exercising their legal rights?

fmc351 · 10-03-2008, 06:52 PM

As said, talk to a community legal service, legal aid, or pay a solicitor for 1/2 hours advice. Depends what its worth to you, principle, costs, convenience, driving record.

Legal Aid are hit and miss, it will depend what end of their budget cycle they are in (whats left in the coffers), your chances of winning, and the severity of the possible penalty. They dont have endless resources to throw at every situation but will often advise you on how to defend or plead anyway, they just wont go to court.

My opinion, go with points 2 and 4. I assume 3 means your family depend on you having a licence, if so, then 3 is good too but in the courts eyes, you should have thought of that at the time, its not the courts responsibility to think of it now, but it has some merit in court for the sake of your family not you.

1, dont even bother with that line of reasoning. Lesson learned is great and a must and you should acknowledge that, but dont try to argue its reason to be let off the second. There is argument in regards to the two fines being part of the one trip and being the one stretch of road (I assume they are), I recall this line of reasoning being successful but Im not sure if that has been defined legally or not through appeals or other means of clarifying law (or which jurisdiction). Seek non-forum advice on this point. The court is bound by law, and often judges are in positions where they may see your point, but have to find against you anyway, he's a judge not a king. (OK magistrate, and she could be female)

Cant stress seeking non-forum advice enough. If as youve said youve spoken to a solicitor, other advice can hinder you. Think too many chefs, too many chiefs etc. A solicitor can argue things you cant, not because of knowledge (which is also true), but because he is not the offender.

Shonky · 11-03-2008, 09:30 AM

Whoa! What did I miss between yesterday arvo and this morning?! Thanks Plext and SB for your super efficient enforcement!

Thanks fmc351. Good point about what the lawyer can argue - not being the offender. I hadn't considered that angle... Will discuss point #1 further with the legal eagle! Thanks!

Kyro - Didn't know about duty lawyers. Will look into that!

Thanks to all.

banarcus · 11-03-2008, 09:39 AM

In my time at various Courts, I've seen a few P platers regain the privilege to drive after getting a suspension. I've seen plenty more sent packing which will always involve Court costs for wasting Court time.

EgoFG · 11-03-2008, 11:07 AM

Get a Lawyer who specializes - some are even on the WEB. One had a great 'debunk' of a website that sell a book on what to do when you get fined - He gave me some good advice over the phone ... 'Armstrong' _ I think ??

ch33z1l · 11-03-2008, 11:26 AM

Friend of mine was done DUI on a P1 license (before new laws for P platers came in). His reading was about 0.065 and the judge ruled that it was his first offence and let him off with just a warning. Depends on how they are feeling that day i guess

Shonky · 01-05-2008, 02:09 PM

Excuse the thread mining, but I just remembered about this one and thought I would let you all know how it all went!

The good magistrate was impressed with my ongoing voluntary contributions to the community, and accepted my explanation that I was driving home from volunteer work and simply did not realise that the speed limit had changed. She was satisfied that I was not speeding maliciously and that my prior driving record was clean because for the most part I am a safe and responsible young driver. (which I am except for a few shameful misadventures in the earlier years...)

The fact that both offences happened in the same trip (which I pointed out to her as recommended by plext - cheers!) seemed to seal the deal - as that removed the "repeat offender" element.

My appeal was granted and my licence stays active.

Thankyou all for your advice and help, and those who felt compelled to post stupid comments (which were dutifully moderated) take a sage piece of advice: the legal system is there to be fair and equitable. Sometimes you cop it on the chin and sometimes there is no need. This was one of the latter cases and the law agreed with me.

Thanks again all!

Matty4 · 01-05-2008, 02:30 PM

Well done...
wish the courts here in Vic had the same sort of discretion.
Unfortunately there are mandatory penalties imposed for certain traffic offences.
You could be Mother Teresa or JC himself, but get done speeding to the point of loosing your licence and you'll still lose it, no discretion allowed by the Magistrate.

Sourbastard · 01-05-2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shonky

Excuse the thread mining, but I just remembered about this one and thought I would let you all know how it all went!

The good magistrate was impressed with my ongoing voluntary contributions to the community, and accepted my explanation that I was driving home from volunteer work and simply did not realise that the speed limit had changed. She was satisfied that I was not speeding maliciously and that my prior driving record was clean because for the most part I am a safe and responsible young driver. (which I am except for a few shameful misadventures in the earlier years...)

The fact that both offences happened in the same trip (which I pointed out to her as recommended by plext - cheers!) seemed to seal the deal - as that removed the "repeat offender" element.

My appeal was granted and my licence stays active.

Thankyou all for your advice and help, and those who felt compelled to post stupid comments (which were dutifully moderated) take a sage piece of advice: the legal system is there to be fair and equitable. Sometimes you cop it on the chin and sometimes there is no need. This was one of the latter cases and the law agreed with me.

Thanks again all!

well done shonky.

MYVYSS · 01-05-2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matty4

Well done...
wish the courts here in Vic had the same sort of discretion.
Unfortunately there are mandatory penalties imposed for certain traffic offences.
You could be Mother Teresa or JC himself, but get done speeding to the point of loosing your licence and you'll still lose it, no discretion allowed by the Magistrate.

Thats not always the case...

"The below is true and yes I was wrong, so before all the do gooders get on their high horses...how about a nice cup of SHUT THE UP*

I got done 49km over the speed limit, which "should have" resulted in an automatic 12 month suspension. I chose to fight it in court as with the 3 km/h drop for inaccuracy it was 46km/h over the limit, of which 1km/h was the difference between 12 and 6 months licence suspension. I fought it in court and request that VICPOL drop the speed the 1-2km/h I needed to reduce the suspension to 6 months, at first attempt they said NO BAD LUCK, second letter was from my barrister requesting all testing of the equipement for the previous 3 year, approvals from planning for the mobile camera to be in the spot it was and a heap of other legal stuff, which meant that VICPOL would have had to actually do something, the last line of the letter started all about would not be required if they just adjusted the speed caught at before court, with the promise I would plead Guilty.... 7 days later in the mail I got a new fine/summons for the adjusted speed and saved myself an extra 6 months suspension.....walked into court, the Judge said someone has done there homework, I said yes your Honour...(he could have given me more if he wanted) he said run away...case dismissed blah blah blah...halved the fine and halved the suspension.....

ITS YOUR RIGHT TO FIGHT IT!!!!...Use the law to the full extent, the murderers,pedophiles and druggies are all allowed to plead down there cases, so you as a upstanding member of the community and just a person who had a moment of stupidness and sped have every right to try to lessen the blow.....

to all the doo gooders out there... *pokes tongue out* wait till its your turn...

The Yeti · 01-05-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MYVYSS

to all the doo gooders out there... *pokes tongue out* wait till its your turn...

Never a truer word writen

my driving history isnt the greatest I did the crims and the times, only got off one as it was simply wrong the rest well they got me fair and square and I was drivign like an idiot, but nothing pi$$es me off more than some do gooder claiming how this shouldnt happen etc, untill they stuff up then its not their fault the equipment must be faulty etc. Weve all been guilty of a few driving indiscretions some of us got away with it some of us didnt.

Matty4 · 01-05-2008, 05:40 PM

Craig,
well done to you too...
but my comment still stands. The Magistrate didn't halve the fine and penalty, the Police chose to prosecute you on a lower speed. If the Police had decided not to lower the speed detected at and gone in with the original summons, even with all your evidence, he would have either found you guilty or not guilty of the offence presented to him. Guilty, and you'd be doing to hard for 12 months. (I doubt very much he would dismiss the case entirely, as VicPol would have excellent grounds to appeal).

Matty