Ford announce extension to Geelong plant beyond 2010

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by aston

A few months back Ford announced that ESP would be available on the E-Gas Falcon from Q1 next year. I also read, possibly on this forums that it couldn't be fitted to the current E-Gas setup because it requires fuel injection? Could we read into this that a new E-Gas set up will be released to enable ESP on the E-Gas range in Q1 of next year?

Yes, I posted this story when the 5 star crash results came out. It's from Drive and can no doubt be found in their archives somewhere. Seems more likely than ever now that development is back on.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by aston

A few months back Ford announced that ESP would be available on the E-Gas Falcon from Q1 next year. I also read, possibly on this forums that it couldn't be fitted to the current E-Gas setup because it requires fuel injection? Could we read into this that a new E-Gas set up will be released to enable ESP on the E-Gas range in Q1 of next year?

Extremely unlikely, as no devlopment work has been done on the I6 for over 18 months. If Liquid LPG injection appears it will be in 2010.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Extremely unlikely, as no devlopment work has been done on the I6 for over 18 months. If Liquid LPG injection appears it will be in 2010.

I am guessing FG Series 2?

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

As for the I6 and Euro 4, there was one media report that stated that Ford are targeting injection, exhaust and calibration to pass Euro 4. It will require the usual R&D and it won't be as simple as it sounds but there was also mention of something brand new from Fords innovation centre in the US that would be a huge help in meeting those targets, whatever it is I don't know but it may be some new type of injector or cat converter or something that helps reduce emissions. Guess i'll find out when the first development engines hit the line.

I'd guarantee that the cat converter will be moved well up into the exhaust manifold to get it up to temp quicker, its what all the manufacturers are now doing to reduce cold start up emissions, and the FG's cat still isn't really that close to the engine.

I wonder if this type of technology can be utilised?


Variable valve timing is ancient history. You already know that twiddling the intake and exhaust valve timing and overlap helps broaden an engine's torque curve and that most engines do this by inserting a gizmo in between the camshaft and the pulley for the timing chain or belt. And as you well know, this widget uses engine oil pressure to advance or retard the cam relative to its pulley.


What you may not know is that relying on engine oil pressure limits the performance of these "cam phasers" at engine start-up, when the oil is cold and thick, and at low engine speeds when the pump isn't producing much pressure. Well the clever engineers at Ford noticed the oil pressure in the chambers that move the cam one way or the other experiences a little wiggle before and after each cam lobe opens its valve. That's because the high pressure of the valve spring wants to slow the lobe down just before it pushes the valve fully open, and then tries to speed it up when the valve starts closing. Instead of fighting this back-and-forth wiggling, Ford decided to harness it, using these little pressure pulses to advance or retard the cam.


The system is elegantly simple. Engine oil pressure is fed to the cam phaser, but very little or no oil flows to it or through it. Instead, the pressure needed to move in one direction is supplied by the pressure spikes from the opposite chamber and vice versa. A simple three-position spool valve allows oil to flow in either direction or not at all. The system works a bit like a ratchet wrench.


This Cam-Torque Actuated variable valve timing system reportedly reduces oil-pump flow requirements by 25% relative to conventional VVT systems, for a claimed fuel-economy boost of 0.4% on Ford's 3.0L Duratec V-6-powered Fusion (CTA's first application). But the real benefit is that the system can start rotating the cam about 350 rpm earlier than oil-pump-pressure systems and can ramp up much faster, achieving the full 47 deg (crankshaft angle) advance by 1500 rpm -- that's 40 deg more advance at that point than the old system. The overall net result (other engine improvements include tweaks to the cylinder head and intake for better breathing, 10.3:1 compression, and flex-fuel capability) is an extra 19 hp and 23 lb-ft of torque with improved fuel economy (thanks largely to the new six-speed automatic). Expect this elegantly simple and cost-effective system to migrate throughout Ford's VVT engine lineup.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

I wonder if this type of technology can be utilised?


Variable valve timing is ancient history. You already know that twiddling the intake and exhaust valve timing and overlap helps broaden an engine's torque curve and that most engines do this by inserting a gizmo in between the camshaft and the pulley for the timing chain or belt. And as you well know, this widget uses engine oil pressure to advance or retard the cam relative to its pulley.


What you may not know is that relying on engine oil pressure limits the performance of these "cam phasers" at engine start-up, when the oil is cold and thick, and at low engine speeds when the pump isn't producing much pressure. Well the clever engineers at Ford noticed the oil pressure in the chambers that move the cam one way or the other experiences a little wiggle before and after each cam lobe opens its valve. That's because the high pressure of the valve spring wants to slow the lobe down just before it pushes the valve fully open, and then tries to speed it up when the valve starts closing. Instead of fighting this back-and-forth wiggling, Ford decided to harness it, using these little pressure pulses to advance or retard the cam.


The system is elegantly simple. Engine oil pressure is fed to the cam phaser, but very little or no oil flows to it or through it. Instead, the pressure needed to move in one direction is supplied by the pressure spikes from the opposite chamber and vice versa. A simple three-position spool valve allows oil to flow in either direction or not at all. The system works a bit like a ratchet wrench.


This Cam-Torque Actuated variable valve timing system reportedly reduces oil-pump flow requirements by 25% relative to conventional VVT systems, for a claimed fuel-economy boost of 0.4% on Ford's 3.0L Duratec V-6-powered Fusion (CTA's first application). But the real benefit is that the system can start rotating the cam about 350 rpm earlier than oil-pump-pressure systems and can ramp up much faster, achieving the full 47 deg (crankshaft angle) advance by 1500 rpm -- that's 40 deg more advance at that point than the old system. The overall net result (other engine improvements include tweaks to the cylinder head and intake for better breathing, 10.3:1 compression, and flex-fuel capability) is an extra 19 hp and 23 lb-ft of torque with improved fuel economy (thanks largely to the new six-speed automatic). Expect this elegantly simple and cost-effective system to migrate throughout Ford's VVT engine lineup.

Good find. Could be a possibility.

[FPV]

Originally Posted by Car Advice

Mr Burela refused to be drawn on the future of the Ford Falcon and its rear-wheel-drive platform but did indirectly indicate that the decision to stick with the in-line six-cylinder engine meant that the current FG Falcon would probably be around longer than originally planned, and could be expected to remain in production until about 2015.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/19143/fo...plant-for-now/

GRWD on hold:
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...light=2,falcon

I think keeping the FG for a mere 5 years is too short, they have just launched the new model. In the end hopefully they will create a platform that can house the I6. $21 million in investment seems to mean alot more then 3 years of model lifecycle to me.

[Romulus]

Typical. Ford is deciding whether or not the Falcon will remain RWD and all of a sudden the Falcon is in doubt. GM on the other hand is bleeding money out of it's rear end and it barely rates a mention in the local media :

Here's a newsflash....GM will go broke a long time before Ford will, and GM-H is suffering a lot more than Ford Oz is, with it's poor sales of VE Commodores. Based on it's current marketing strategy, they (GM-H) will be teaming up with McDonalds and giving cars away with Happy Meals in an attempt to maintain a market presence on the road.

[timmy1300000]

i just heard the news and am so glad im not gunna see a pos v6 in a ford anytime in the near future. YAY I6 FOREVER

[Luke Plaizier]

The 4.0 Litre V6 in the new Mustang just released in the LA Motorshow last week only puts out 157kW. http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...ight=2,mustang

In this day and age, that is truly disgusting.

Those are scary numbers.

I wonder what the reaction would be if the 310kW F6 I6T was slotted in there?


Lukeyson

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

I wonder what the reaction would be if the 310kW F6 I6T was slotted in there?

I have come to the conclusion all americans are either dumb or naive, or both.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

The 4.0 Litre V6 in the new Mustang just released in the LA Motorshow last week only puts out 157kW. http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...ight=2,mustang

In this day and age, that is truly disgusting.

Those are scary numbers.

I wonder what the reaction would be if the 310kW F6 I6T was slotted in there?


Lukeyson

I'd assume the Duratec V6 will go into the 2011 Mustang along with the new 5.0 V8. The old V6 can't continue forever. I was quite suprised it isn't available for the 2010 Mustang yet.

[phillyc]

At the very least the new Duratec 3.5L V6 should be fitted to the Mustang. But I guess it's a cost thing as the entry V6 stang is a very cheap car.

Still having nearly 200kW would be a huge step up from the 157kW 4L V6 they use now.

NB 157kw from 4L was the power of the EF-AU3 standard 6 and that was from 1995 to 2002. That US OHV motor is 13yrs behind the Aussie OHC...

[ivorya]

Keeping the engine plant open is gr8 news for the Industry. Full congrats to Ford Aus and in particular the new GM.

This has got me thinking though. In a previous post, it was mentioned that it's relately easy for the I6 to obtain the new Euro emission targets by moving cats closer and a few other engine tweaks. So realistically, this means that ford will take the $21mill (whatever the real amount is) and only use say $5mill of it fixing the engine to meet thes targets while using the rest on the car itself.
I want peoples thoughts........ Why doesn't Ford Aus use all this money on implementing all the latest technologies (eg DI, DOD etc ie/ everything available today) on this engine,. If Ford built this enigine and had targets of 8L /100km (Maybe obtainable), would this spark more sales for the Falcon? I'm sure that Fleets would be more interested as well as more Private sales, lets face it, it'll be more comfy than a 4 cyl camry..

From what the media is saying, the next Falc could be the last( i don't believe them but hey) so why doesn't the Aus development team give ford Aus something they can be really proud of and really stick it up the yanks as a final Hurrahhhh.....

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Keeping the engine plant open is gr8 news for the Industry. Full congrats to Ford Aus and in particular the new GM.

This has got me thinking though. In a previous post, it was mentioned that it's relately easy for the I6 to obtain the new Euro emission targets by moving cats closer and a few other engine tweaks. So realistically, this means that ford will take the $21mill (whatever the real amount is) and only use say $5mill of it fixing the engine to meet thes targets while using the rest on the car itself.
I want peoples thoughts........ Why doesn't Ford Aus use all this money on implementing all the latest technologies (eg DI, DOD etc ie/ everything available today) on this engine,. If Ford built this enigine and had targets of 8L /100km (Maybe obtainable), would this spark more sales for the Falcon? I'm sure that Fleets would be more interested as well as more Private sales, lets face it, it'll be more comfy than a 4 cyl camry..

From what the media is saying, the next Falc could be the last( i don't believe them but hey) so why doesn't the Aus development team give ford Aus something they can be really proud of and really stick it up the yanks as a final Hurrahhhh.....

They didn't say how much development was going to cost, just that they would use the $21 mil to upgrade the engine plant.

Problem for them is that the investment money divided over 60,000 units per year means a lot of money per engine. That was partly the reason they wanted to go to the V6 in the first place, they weren't making enough engines to justify the R&D dollars anymore. Somehow they think they can now.

They will want to spend as little as possible to get Euro 4, cause if there is a new Falcon in 2013 it will most likely be designed to take the V6 from the start. It was mostly dropped for the FG because it was never designed to take the V6 and would cost too much money to make it fit and pass crash tests etc. If they have a clean sheet for 2013 i'd say their would be an 80% chance it will take the V6.

They still don't know what they are going to do come then.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

They still don't know what they are going to do come then.

They should ask the public what they want, rather than building a car and saying, we'll build it, you just buy it, ok?! GM, Ford and Chrysler should realise by now they need us, not the other way around.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by TVS Super Pursuit

They should ask the public what they want, rather than building a car and saying, we'll build it, you just buy it, ok?! GM, Ford and Chrysler should realise by now they need us, not the other way around.

Agreed so true

[Donut King]

Originally Posted by TVS Super Pursuit

They should ask the public what they want, rather than building a car and saying, we'll build it, you just buy it, ok?! GM, Ford and Chrysler should realise by now they need us, not the other way around.

Well lets hope that if they do that they don't ask the enthusiasts, rather that they ask the general motoring public, because if the enthusiast market was enough to get by on, we wouldn't be having this discussion now

[Perana]

Originally Posted by Donut King

Well lets hope that if they do that they don't ask the enthusiasts, rather that they ask the general motoring public, because if the enthusiast market was enough to get by on, we wouldn't be having this discussion now

But I want a Gazillion HP GTHO V10 !

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Donut King

Well lets hope that if they do that they don't ask the enthusiasts, rather that they ask the general motoring public, because if the enthusiast market was enough to get by on, we wouldn't be having this discussion now

Yes.... i think its a pretty safe bet Ford research the broader markets pretty extensively, not so much about engine type/construction though as it would probably be pointless because the vast majority of consumers couldn't tell an I6 from a rotary! and probably care even less... they just want it to perform ok and use the least amount of fuel..
Holden have comprehensively proven that motor type isnt all that relevant to the average consumer time and again with their V6..

[JPFS1]

There are lots of p!ssed off engineers looking at 12 months of wasted development, effort and dedication. Programs are back to the drawing board... again.... things up in the air, more cost being stripped etc. The backflip decision hasn't come cheap and we could well be looking at the last Aus falcon because of this. Short term positive for Geelong, long term negative for Falcon. We shall see.

[olds]

Great news for workers at Geelong But isnt this just flogging a dead horse.Spending big dollars to get an engine,which is a great engine now,Euro IV compliant when there is a ready made replacement seems fairly short sighted.It just seems like catch up now that fuel prices have fallen.I would rather see some sort of plan for the future eg. hybrid,plug in electric or something instead of hanging our hats on I6 until 2013 when fuel prices are like Europe $3.00 plus.Just my 2 bobs worth and no I dont have an answer,Just sick of always coming from behind.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by TVS Super Pursuit

They should ask the public what they want, rather than building a car and saying, we'll build it, you just buy it, ok?! GM, Ford and Chrysler should realise by now they need us, not the other way around.

If they asked the public we would all be offered a front wheel drive 4 cylinder with a few extra batteries thrown in for the 'Green effect'.

Thankfully they to listen to the enthusiest though or we wouldnt have a GT or F6!

Originally Posted by JPFS1

There are lots of p!ssed off engineers looking at 12 months of wasted development, effort and dedication. Programs are back to the drawing board... again.... things up in the air, more cost being stripped etc. The backflip decision hasn't come cheap and we could well be looking at the last Aus falcon because of this. Short term positive for Geelong, long term negative for Falcon. We shall see.

Possibly a very few peed off Engineers but a hell of a lot more happy workers/suppliers/customers and others in general! The 'Aust' Falcon may be short term but will be around for a lot longer now this decission was made. No way is this a negative for Falcon ...... long term or otherwise. You cannot put a negative on this ....

Originally Posted by olds

Great news for workers at Geelong But isnt this just flogging a dead horse.Spending big dollars to get an engine,which is a great engine now,Euro IV compliant when there is a ready made replacement seems fairly short sighted.It just seems like catch up now that fuel prices have fallen.I would rather see some sort of plan for the future eg. hybrid,plug in electric or something instead of hanging our hats on I6 until 2013 when fuel prices are like Europe $3.00 plus.Just my 2 bobs worth and no I dont have an answer,Just sick of always coming from behind.

Oh boy ..... yep just throw the dead horse out and close Geelong down! Who needs the factory or their jobs ...... petrol prices will be $2.00 plus by Xmas so I heard too. OR was it $1.00? I cannot for the life of me see the negative side ...... but possibly I am too much of an optimist ..... silly me!



| [/url] |

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by olds

...when there is a ready made replacement..

There is not.
It has power and fit issues.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

There are lots of p!ssed off engineers looking at 12 months of wasted development, effort and dedication. Programs are back to the drawing board... again.... things up in the air, more cost being stripped etc. The backflip decision hasn't come cheap and we could well be looking at the last Aus falcon because of this. Short term positive for Geelong, long term negative for Falcon. We shall see.

It was cheaper to switch back to the I6 than continue to fit a V6 that was never meant to fit in the first place. Tom Gorman strikes again.

This decision has nothing to do with wether there will be another new Falcon or not, its the sales figures that will determine that, nothing else matters anywhere near as much.

I think the decision was done so that it makes it easier to shut the whole place down as one piece in 2013 rather than do it one bit at a time, and pay a heap of money to fit a new engine that may have only been used for 3 years. Either that or if there is an all new Falcon in 2013 it will be designed from the start to take the V6. The FG surely wasn't.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It was cheaper to switch back to the I6 than continue to fit a V6 that was never meant to fit in the first place. Tom Gorman strikes again.

This decision has nothing to do with wether there will be another new Falcon or not, its the sales figures that will determine that, nothing else matters anywhere near as much.

I think the decision was done so that it makes it easier to shut the whole place down as one piece in 2013 rather than do it one bit at a time, and pay a heap of money to fit a new engine that may have only been used for 3 years. Either that or if there is an all new Falcon in 2013 it will be designed from the start to take the V6. The FG surely wasn't.

Yep, weather its an I6 or V6 it will have absolutely no influence on sales figures for the Falcon.. only "I6 enthusiasts" care.. the other 99% of Falcon consumers couldn't tell the difference anyway.
Its a short term good news story for Geelong, but i hope it doesn't have (another) flip side down the track..