‘One Ford’ or not?

[JMO]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Hang on a minute - where does it say anything about Taurus and Falcon being one and the same eventually? Nowhere.

That was the plan in the mid 90's wasn't it? To eventually drop Falcon and have Taurus replace it. I didn't say it was a future plan but PAST.

Thanks for the insight JPFS1.

[RPO83]

Originally Posted by JMO

That was the plan in the mid 90's wasn't it? To eventually drop Falcon and have Taurus replace it. I didn't say it was a future plan but PAST.

Thanks for the insight JPFS1.

That was never the plan.

[JMO]

Okay. It's getting a little off topic now, but could you explain what the plan was? To my understanding that was what they had planned. Also that the styling of the AU was heavily influenced by the US in it's use of ovals. If I am wrong then please correct me

Feel free to get back on topic.

[BOSSGT302]

If a Mustang platform can be shared with a Falcon, why not? Cost cutting through model sharing can only serve to improve the breed of each model, lower R&D costs, and increase profitability. It would also serve to justify investment in projects which otherwise would not be profitable as stand alone products (i.e. Falcon).

Please correct me if i am wrong but i beleive Ford had looked at the Falcon being on the same platform as the Mustang after the FG series had run its course. Being they are similar sized vehicles. Sure i read this in at least 1 mag. Of course there would be other models on the same platform.

[R-Design]

In the past few years Ford has:

1. Cancelled plans to develop the FG Falcon for Left Hand Drive markets,
2. Cancelled plans for both the V6 Petrol & Diesel engines in Falcon,
3. Put plans for a Global Rear Wheel Drive platform on the back burner,
4. Changed the Australian Managing Directors Three times, and
5. Gone out of it’s way to let everyone know that:
a) Mustang will remain a stand alone product.
b) Falcon doesn’t equal rear wheel drive
c) They’re reviewing what vehicles / platforms are required globally.

If there’s plan for Falcon post 2015 I don’t see how the above indicates their intention. If anything they’re preparing us for what’s ahead.

[RPO83]

Originally Posted by JMO

Okay. It's getting a little off topic now, but could you explain what the plan was? To my understanding that was what they had planned. Also that the styling of the AU was heavily influenced by the US in it's use of ovals. If I am wrong then please correct me

Feel free to get back on topic.

FoA took Taurus stock from an allocation that was for Japan, the car was never exported here to take the Falcon's place in the market. David Morgan was hoping to target the Camry buyer but it wasn't to be. The AU was influenced by Ford's worldwide 'new edge' design, not the 'oval' design. Interesting note is that the person who designed the third generation Taurus was responsible for the first design drafts for the XD Falcon.

[RPO83]

Originally Posted by Boss315

In the past few years Ford has:

1. Cancelled plans to develop the FG Falcon for Left Hand Drive markets,
2. Cancelled plans for both the V6 Petrol & Diesel engines in Falcon,
3. Put plans for a Global Rear Wheel Drive platform on the back burner,
4. Changed the Australian Managing Directors Three times, and
5. Gone out of it’s way to let everyone know that:
a) Mustang will remain a stand alone product.
b) Falcon doesn’t equal rear wheel drive
c) They’re reviewing what vehicles / platforms are required globally.

If there’s plan for Falcon post 2015 I don’t see how the above indicates their intention. If anything they’re preparing us for what’s ahead.

Gorman and Osborne both left under their own steam, it wasn't a Ford directive.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by RPO83

FoA took Taurus stock from an allocation that was for Japan, the car was never exported here to take the Falcon's place in the market. David Morgan was hoping to target the Camry buyer but it wasn't to be. The AU was influenced by Ford's worldwide 'new edge' design, not the 'oval' design. Interesting note is that the person who designed the third generation Taurus was responsible for the first design drafts for the XD Falcon.

That doesnt make sense, as the Taurus that was sold here was the top of the range model and was a similar price to a Fairmont Ghia. Camry competitor it was not, unless you are talking the top of the range Vienta.


The bubble Taurus was intended as a World car, they spent $2billion on it and it was Ford's intention to sell it everywhere, and im pretty sure every market had to find a place for it. Some of the blame for Ford's troubles has to lie with that disaster, the original Taurus was one of Ford's best successes, then they tried too hard to replace it. In the end of the day the $500million EF was a better car.

[RPO83]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

That doesnt make sense, as the Taurus that was sold here was the top of the range model and was a similar price to a Fairmont Ghia. Camry competitor it was not, unless you are talking the top of the range Vienta.


The bubble Taurus was intended as a World car, they spent $2billion on it and it was Ford's intention to sell it everywhere, and im pretty sure every market had to find a place for it. Some of the blame for Ford's troubles has to lie with that disaster, the original Taurus was one of Ford's best successes, then they tried too hard to replace it. In the end of the day the $500million EF was a better car.

No sorry I didn't make sense there, yes the Vienta, Verada buyer and a segment that would not necessarily look at buying a Falcon.

Some of the troubles is an understatement sadly. If the Taurus wasn't mismanaged and to a large extent neglected under Nasser (whom I hold in high regard) Ford wouldn't be in such a dire position today.

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by Blue_XR

Ohio XB, when Ford Australia was selling the F-250 I think the price was around the $60k-$80K Aus mark. My only reason in stating this was that the Toyota Hilux is a very popular vehicle and its sells about 3000+ vehicles a month and and if Ford could introduce something that could take a higher payload and with more space then more people might take this option and pay more for it and the F150 does have a nicer interior to go with it. Its not just the Australian market, I was talking about RHD markets all around the world.

Thanks for all that info. I need to learn a lot more about the Aussie market.

To put into perspective, not that it is a fair comparison, this has been a slower year for the F150 than usual, and even given that point, during the first 3 months this year Ford has sold over 6,000 trucks each week (averaged out). You are talking 1/2 that in 4 weeks. There is a volume pricing on parts that would not be available for the F150 if it were built there. Then again, Toyota is making money on trucks there. If they shipped the F150 there from here......I don't really know enough about all the symantics. Again, just my opinions. Also, realize I am not against the F150 being sold there in the slightest. I am only questioning the business model in a market I know I don't know enough about. :





Steve

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by JMO

So the way I'm reading this is. The US keeps all models ie F150, Explorer etc as they are 'proven' sellers, while we are at risk of losing a 'proven' seller in the Falcon. (Admittedly sales are not as high as they could be).

People say they own an 'Explorer' or an 'F150'. Well _I_ say 'I own a Falcon'.

I'm not sure how long the current Mustang platform has been around for, but I'm sure the current Falcon platform blows it out of the water. So why not use the Falcon as the base for the Mustang?

If I'm reading into this incorrectly then please correct me, but it seems as though we're being screwed with 'One Ford' while the US made vehicles continue on untouched.

No, US vehicles are not being untouched. The Taurus X is killed. The next gen Explorer will be unibody construction, no longer on a frame. The Focus will be the next gen Euro Focus (thank god). We will have the Fiesta, which has not been here since about 1980. We are getting the Kuga, Mondeo, and some other Euro Fords. I don't know if the Mondeo will be called the Fusion here or if they will remain separate models, but I know they will be built on the same platform. Crown Vic is finally killed. (Please don't compare the Falcon to the Crown Vic, there is not comparison, the Vic is not even in the Falcon's league).

We are screwed by not getting the Falcon here. When I heard of the LHD program for it I was thrilled!! I couldn't wait to see the Falcon here, but instead we are losing out on this.

I don't know Ford's plans for Falcon/Mustang or if there are any considerations between the two. The Mustang platform was new for the 2005 model. I don't know if there were any platform changes for the 2009. If so they were small. As far as being blown out of the water by the Falcon, I don't know about that. The Falcon may be better, I don't know that either. Even if it is it will have broken a sweat while beating the Mustang. :jab:

When the 2005 Mustang was introduced with a solid rear axle critics complained about no IRS. This was done to keep the price down. To answer the critics the new Mustang was put into Grand-Am Cup racing here in the US and dominated the league as well as taking the Championship position, and this was while being hindered by a mere solid rear axle. Ford's response to the lack of independant rear suspension....."Doesn't seem to keep it from winning races."



Steve

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by Blue_XR

I would definately prefer to keep the falcon and have it develped in LHD. This could be exported to the middle east and it could compete with holden in the same market. The falcon beats any US made passenger vehicle, especailly when the competition would be the Lincilon town car or the crown victoria

There is no comparison between these US cars and the Falcon. The US cars are dinosaurs.


I noticed Ford does not even feature the Falcon on the home page of the Oz website.


I too would prefer to see a LHD program for the Falcon and getting them shipped over here. I have no idea of the likelihood of that though.

Steve

[JMO]

Thanks for the info Ohio. I didn't mean to put down the Mustang. It's just that I find it hard to believe that with how good a platform the Falcon is, there just seems to be no where else in he world where it has been/will be used to produce other vehicles, let alone to have an export market. If the Falcon were to become a global product I'd hope that it would remain an Australian designed and built product, but I guess it isn't for me to say.:(

The only reason I brought up Crown was because I believe that the Falcon could easily play it's role given a chance again I don't know the reasoning behind it, but the Falcon was overlooked once again. Just out of interest, what is he replacement for the Crown Vic Cab/Taxi and Police Cruiser wise?

[Blue_XR]

Ohio XB, how does the Fusion stack up to the competition? Also if Ford bring the Mondeo to the US wouldnt it be a direct competitor to the Fusion.

[Watto_Cobra]

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

......... while being hindered by a mere solid rear axle. Ford's response to the lack of independant rear suspension....."Doesn't seem to keep it from winning races."

Similar situation to our V8 ute racing. Leaf springs don't stop the Falcon ute going through corners as quick/quicker than the Commodore. :hihi:

[LeadFoot81]

Slightly off topic: but while live rear axle may be fine for racing, its nowhere near as comfortable for day to day driving.

I get Fomoco's decision to keep it in the Mustang though (again: why mess with a proven formula)

Irrespective of the conspiracy theories, Falcon survival (will have to) hinge on domestic sales. If it was feasible for it to be exported and make lots of money Fomoco would do it.

Right now alot of money would have to be spent to get exports and overseas sales up and running and Detroit are unwilling to tip the money in.

Bad idea in the longrun? Probably. Safe choice right now? Absolutely.

It's hard not to take offence, because its 'our' Falcon who's wings have been clipped, but the FG platform will be current from now until 2013, who knows what the next 4 years may hold?

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by JMO

Thanks for the info Ohio. I didn't mean to put down the Mustang. It's just that I find it hard to believe that with how good a platform the Falcon is, there just seems to be no where else in he world where it has been/will be used to produce other vehicles, let alone to have an export market. If the Falcon were to become a global product I'd hope that it would remain an Australian designed and built product, but I guess it isn't for me to say.:(

The only reason I brought up Crown was because I believe that the Falcon could easily play it's role given a chance again I don't know the reasoning behind it, but the Falcon was overlooked once again. Just out of interest, what is he replacement for the Crown Vic Cab/Taxi and Police Cruiser wise?

I agree. I believe Ford was looking at using it for a global platform but the current world market situation has made other concerns more of a priority. Otherwise I think we would have seen more plans for the Falcon. Like I said, I was looking forward to it coming here based on what I had been reading about it. Hopefully as things improve and Ford gets some breathing room they will revisit this situation.

The Crown Vic is old enough to still be built on a frame. This is an advantage that it has for rigidity and safety. I don't know of any other car in the US that is built on a frame. As far as a replacement in the Ford line-up goes, I am going to GUESS that it will be the 2010 Taurus. It is a fullsized car, lots of room for electronics, shotgun, cage, and everything else that goes inside to make a police car a police car, including "seasoned" officers that do not have the same dimensions they did when they joined the force long ago. It also can get the EcoBoost engine that will provide better fuel economy for the City budget and speed when it is time for action. This is all my own speculation though. I am as curious as you are.

I don't know what they are going to market for taxis. There was a big purchase of Escape Hybrids in New York a couple years ago. The companies loved them, the riders seemed to be comfortable, but the drivers supposedly voiced a big desire in the past several months to go back to the Crown Vics. I don't know why though.



Steve

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by Blue_XR

Ohio XB, how does the Fusion stack up to the competition? Also if Ford bring the Mondeo to the US wouldnt it be a direct competitor to the Fusion.

The Fusion gets the most fuel mileage of any car in it's segment, conventional engine AND Hybrid (Beats the Camry Hybrid by 8 mpg city). The ride is quiet and comfortable. The handling is great. The new styling is eye catching. It's getting many great reviews. It is priced right in the middle of it's competition. It should be a great seller.

Currently, a production Fusion Hybrid is driving to see how many miles it can go on one tank of gas. They were shooting for 1,000 but once they reached that they still had 1/3 tank left, so they are continuing on to see how far they can go. To get 1,000 mpg they needed to achieve 57 mpg. While preparing for this event they were able to achieve 70 mpg. Of course they are not driving the way you or I would, but they are showing what is possible. Even if people only adopted several of their driving techniques they can get better than the rated 41 mpg city.

I would think the Mondeo would be a direct competitor to the Fusion. I don't know what Ford's plan is for this issue. Like I said, I know the two cars next gen will be built on the same platform. I don't know exactly what this will mean in the end.


Steve

[outback_ute]

It is only sensible that the F-series continues, but Ford needs to plan for the future with the expectation that it won't achieve the same sales levels, and look at the mid-size segment (or vans) to retain sales. A while back I read that Ford was looking to make a smaller F100, I wonder if this is still on the cards? Under "One Ford" surely the world-market T6 would be adopted instead. Ford's competitors sell their global pick-up in the US mid-size segment quite happily.

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

It is only sensible that the F-series continues, but Ford needs to plan for the future with the expectation that it won't achieve the same sales levels, and look at the mid-size segment (or vans) to retain sales. A while back I read that Ford was looking to make a smaller F100, I wonder if this is still on the cards? Under "One Ford" surely the world-market T6 would be adopted instead. Ford's competitors sell their global pick-up in the US mid-size segment quite happily.

Ford has already planned for that expectation, lower sales volume. Actually they over compensated in the fourth quarter last year and didn't have enough trucks to meet demand.

Marketing has switched from doing advertising to "truck guys" to "guys that need trucks", meaning guys that use a truck for their job or their company. Plenty of "truck guys" are bailing because gas got too pricey. A lot of truck guys are buying other vehicles now, so Ford is marketing to capture more of the commercial purchases and entrepenuers.

The Econoline series van is based on the F-250 frame and is full sized and serious duty. The Transit Connect goes on sale this year, imported from Turkey this year, then to be built at my plant. It cannot, however, even scratch the hauling capability of the Econoline.

F-100 was shelved due to fuel efficiency improvements with the F-150. Ford feels that if you can get the same fuel mileage with the larger truck why make a smaller one? Fuel economy was Ford's only real concern for making the F-100.


Steve

[last fairlane]

Didnt Ford build F100s in the70s and 80s at Eagle Farm in Brisbane alongside the Fairlanes and LTDs and isnt this the same plant that made the RHD F100s
for the UK

[Paull]

Originally Posted by last fairlane

Didnt Ford build F100s in the70s and 80s at Eagle Farm in Brisbane alongside the Fairlanes and LTDs and isnt this the same plant that made the RHD F100s
for the UK

I think you will find that the F Series trucks where all made at the Broadmeadows Truck Plant.

[Elks]

Originally Posted by FordACE

I don't own a ford either, I own a falcon. If it wasn't for the falcon, I probably wouldn't be in a ford.

.

Funny that. You are so right.

Of the 14 Fords We have owned plus some 6 or 7 company vehilces, all falcon or derivatives. Falcons Fairmonts, Fairlanes Teritory my Ts50, all good cars.

Only 3 were not falcon based. A Cortina, never again, an Escort, cute but unreliable and an F100. Old truck rebuilt with Falcon bits to make it good.

A laser, a Telstar, a Taurus, even a Focus (damn good car that it is) do not draw the loyalty the a Falcon (and all its derivatives) do.

OhioXB
The F series is a good truck and has a good following in Oz. The last version sold were 02 or 04 F250's for 60 to 80K and incredibly still attract that as used vehicles.

Ford Oz has been keen to separate the F100/150 from the Falcon ute to protect them both. So we only got the more HD versions of the F series. Needs to be sold at about 45 to 60K depending on version (like a Land Cruiser) to sell in any worthwhile volumes. What amazes me it that Toyota can see that and make it happen. It no wonder they sell three times the cars Ford do.

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by myts

What amazes me it that Toyota can see that and make it happen. It no wonder they sell three times the cars Ford do.

I think the main issue is that Toyota have the capital to go ahead with a plan and not worry about the costs if it fails, Ford meanwhile seem to count every last penny.

[R-Design]

One Ford is definitely based on Toyota's business model. Although they do have some outlying models, for the most part Toyota sell's the same vehicles globally.

What's disappointing is that Ford seems to be reluctant to make the hard decisions now, to ensure long term profitability. I think part of it is around appeasing the US Government (saving jobs), and the remainder around cost cutting (it’s easier to defer significant R&D costs until the market picks up).

My fear is that it’s going to cost us locally.

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by Boss315

One Ford is definitely based on Toyota's business model. Although they do have some outlying models, for the most part Toyota sell's the same vehicles globally.

What's disappointing is that Ford seems to be reluctant to make the hard decisions now, to ensure long term profitability. I think part of it is around appeasing the US Government (saving jobs), and the remainder around cost cutting (it’s easier to defer significant R&D costs until the market picks up).

My fear is that it’s going to cost us locally.

Alan Mulally is a big fan of Toyota. While he was at Boeing he studied Toyota's business model, read the book "The Machine That Changed the World" about Toyota's success, and he has implemented some of Toyota's business culture at Ford. He also was driving a Lexus before coming to Ford.

There is also a difference in culture between the Japanese and Americans, or Australians for that part. American business heads have the US governement right now that they have to take special steps to appease, there is the Ford Family which, though they have given Mulally wide latitude to do as he sees fit, have said "No" to him a couple times. I believe Ford has made monumental changes with the company and certain people just want to see the results of those before hacking away to reshape it some more in order to verify that they are doing what needs to be done and not over doing it. Can Ford over do it? Yes, they learned that when they cut back F-150 production too much in the 4th quarter last year and couldn't meet demand.


Steve