Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

[XR Craig]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Not only Holden workers..................................
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/west...-1226664366638

This is not good if mining slows down to much it will impact all of Australia not to mention the country will stay in debt for a lot longer.

[eb2fairmont]

And higher management make the decisions...

[jpd80]

Interesting thing with fly in fly out work, if the mine or plant closes down on Friday,
the plane and the workers doesn't need to come in on Monday.......

[gtfpv]

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

But those accumulated sickies actually cost more at future pay rates.
A business is better off paying sickies NOW, at todays pay rate, not at a rate in maybe 6 years time when you think you may use them.
It is just a perk the worker gets, just as higher management have their perks.

When I was at Ford the max you could accumulate was 200 days, but if you had a major illness and spend an extended time off work, the ones you didn't get (>200 days) could be credited back to you.

Speaking of perks, what does it cost Ford (and presumably Holden) to give eligible staff their 2 fully maintained cars???

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

But those accumulated sickies actually cost more at future pay rates.
A business is better off paying sickies NOW, at todays pay rate, not at a rate in maybe 6 years time when you think you may use them.
It is just a perk the worker gets, just as higher management have their perks.

I wouldn't mind that either, either way I'd be happy, end of the year I have 5 sick days left, I get a weeks payout.

Things like massive work cover premiums can be avoided if you run a safe workplace, premiums increase when you have work cover claims, no work cover claims, no huge premium increase.

Where it gets sad is when you have someone maimed or a death, and the company gets sued and has to pay out X amount of money to the family and pay fines, they view it as a "win" for them because it cost less than fixing the problem that caused the death or injury.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Where it gets sad is when you have someone maimed or a death, and the company gets sued and has to pay out X amount of money to the family and pay fines, they view it as a "win" for them because it cost less than fixing the problem that caused the death or injury.

Would be nice to think majority of industries have moved on from those twisted practices, though a few rogues who put dollars before life still exist no doubt.
Thats why never take industry for granted, be alert & put your safety 1st, no matter how good the safety systems are, an element of risk always exists.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I see this as an incentive to not throw sickies as I'm being rewarded by them accumulating and can use more than the X amount of days I'm entitled to a year if I've got them saved up and I'm sick enough to justify it.

What you'll find is that if you don't accumulate them, people will throw sickies to use them up before they renew the next year, there is no incentive to keep them accumulating if you have left over ones at the end which wont carry over.

Perhaps it is an incentive not to throw sickies, however................ if you add up all of these perk type costs for the employer plus normal fixed costs, it may end up being a permanent sicky for the whole company when they go broke.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Unfortunately, Ford is not a democracy and those earning big bikkies at the top answer only to The Ford family and Board who control Ford.
The very good management at the top of Ford is the very reason Ford still exists today and avoided bankruptcy when its two Detroit
competitors both went broke and were bailed out by US taxpayers.

Mulally and his team are worth every cent.

Every cent? No. Unfortunately we have such a dearth of talented people making it in the management world, that when a few seem more then just barely competent, they get obscene amounts of cash and bonuses thrown at them.

It doesn't so much validate the pay as say the way we recruit and recognise people at the moment, means the wrong people are getting to the top of too many companies.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Where it gets sad is when you have someone maimed or a death, and the company gets sued and has to pay out X amount of money to the family and pay fines, they view it as a "win" for them because it cost less than fixing the problem that caused the death or injury.

i think you may have been watching too many movies damo
the reason things get put off is because the cash is not there at present - there would be precious few human beings that would allow others to get killed just to save money. unfortunately there are many who have been killed or maimed because the money was not there at the time, or because a higher priority was not placed on something, but to suggest that companies would be happy to kill or maim to save money is well . . . . . . asinine


how many of these people complaining about the companies have ever driven on bald tyres because they could not afford new ones
how many might have taken unnecessary risks on the road, because they could end up late for work and then get docked
how many have had mechanical issues with their car that could have been disastrous if it broke at the wrong time, but kept driving because they didn't have the funds to fix it

no one is innocent and many of those complaining about big business are just as evil as the people they are complaining about
either way, theses people and big business have the exact same interest - themselves

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I wouldn't mind that either, either way I'd be happy, end of the year I have 5 sick days left, I get a weeks payout.

Things like massive work cover premiums can be avoided if you run a safe workplace, premiums increase when you have work cover claims, no work cover claims, no huge premium increase.

Where it gets sad is when you have someone maimed or a death, and the company gets sued and has to pay out X amount of money to the family and pay fines, they view it as a "win" for them because it cost less than fixing the problem that caused the death or injury.

Well how about every time you make a stuffup in your work the cost of fixing it comes out of your personal pay.

It always amazes me how so many are experts in running business yet choose to not even run their own life.

If you WERE running your own life you would not get your tax taken out each week to make sure you actually pay it, would have your own insurances to cover sickness or injury, would not need extra money to cover your lack of ability to save up for your holidays and would be responsible for your own training and quality of work.

Go on, show us all just how bloody good you are and become a contractor who is prepared to be responsible for themselves instead of an employee who is not and just blames anyone else for everything.

OR if you are not prepared to make your own decisions and wear the consequences of your actions then stop whinging when the ones who give you money to do things they way they want them done make them for you.......

[Cheese3]

What a big con by Holden "if you take a $200 pay decrease we could operate for another ten years" the only reason they want workers to take the cut, so when in a few years time when they shut up shop and offer redundancies of X amount of weeks pay per each year of service they save themselves like 20% per a person on the redundancies.

Sneaky but clever

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well how about every time you make a stuffup in your work the cost of fixing it comes out of your personal pay.

It always amazes me how so many are experts in running business yet choose to not even run their own life.

If you WERE running your own life you would not get your tax taken out each week to make sure you actually pay it, would have your own insurances to cover sickness or injury, would not need extra money to cover your lack of ability to save up for your holidays and would be responsible for your own training and quality of work.

Go on, show us all just how bloody good you are and become a contractor who is prepared to be responsible for themselves instead of an employee who is not and just blames anyone else for everything.

OR if you are not prepared to make your own decisions and wear the consequences of your actions then stop whinging when the ones who give you money to do things they way they want them done make them for you.......

Post of the millennium.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Cheese3

What a big con by Holden "if you take a $200 pay decrease we could operate for another ten years" the only reason they want workers to take the cut, so when in a few years time when they shut up shop and offer redundancies of X amount of weeks pay per each year of service they save themselves like 20% per a person on the redundancies.

Sneaky but clever

Clever like peptides I guess....

[Cheese3]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Clever like peptides I guess....

Right..................

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Cheese3

the only reason they want workers to take the cut, so when in a few years time when they shut up shop and offer redundancies of X amount of weeks pay per each year of service they save themselves like 20% per a person on the redundancies.

And business is the only one that does this? How about the government shifting family payments off the tax system and through Centrelink instead? Then when they cut said payments, they're cutting excess welfare (much easier to sell) rather than increasing tax, even though it amounts to the same thing.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by gtxb67;477****

i think you may have been watching too many movies damo
the reason things get put off is because the cash is not there at present - there would be precious few human beings that would allow others to get killed just to save money. unfortunately there are many who have been killed or maimed because the money was not there at the time, or because a higher priority was not placed on something, but to suggest that companies would be happy to kill or maim to save money is well . . . . . . asinine


how many of these people complaining about the companies have ever driven on bald tyres because they could not afford new ones
how many might have taken unnecessary risks on the road, because they could end up late for work and then get docked
how many have had mechanical issues with their car that could have been disastrous if it broke at the wrong time, but kept driving because they didn't have the funds to fix it

no one is innocent and many of those complaining about big business are just as evil as the people they are complaining about
either way, theses people and big business have the exact same interest - themselves

I'm doing Cert IV in OH&S at night school to get involved in the industry and they're real experiences from other people and teachers involved in the industry and used as exampled for us in class.

Particularily in the return to work co-ordinator part of it, dealing with compo claims, its cheaper and easier to kill an employee than maim/seriously injure them.

Originally Posted by flappist

Well how about every time you make a stuffup in your work the cost of fixing it comes out of your personal pay.

It always amazes me how so many are experts in running business yet choose to not even run their own life.

If you WERE running your own life you would not get your tax taken out each week to make sure you actually pay it, would have your own insurances to cover sickness or injury, would not need extra money to cover your lack of ability to save up for your holidays and would be responsible for your own training and quality of work.

Go on, show us all just how bloody good you are and become a contractor who is prepared to be responsible for themselves instead of an employee who is not and just blames anyone else for everything.

OR if you are not prepared to make your own decisions and wear the consequences of your actions then stop whinging when the ones who give you money to do things they way they want them done make them for you.......

I'm sure if you business owners had it your way, your employees would be working 13 hours a day with no paid breaks, no minimum wages or work place condition requirements.

It would be like slavery except you'd have to provide your own accommodation and food.

All I hear from small business owners is its too hard, there are too many regulations, there shouldn't be a minimum wage, unions have too much power, I pay too many taxes, I shouldn't have to pay work cover premiums, I shouldn't have to provide 4 weeks annual leave, paid sick leave etc.

Unions wouldn't exist and the occupational health and safety act wouldn't be so strong (Victorian OHS act 2004/regs 2007) if employers were all on the straight and narrow.

[gtxb67]

if you don't like it damo, start a business
do the 18 hour days with no breaks (paid or otherwise)
only a minimum wage for the first few years
and be a slave to your bosses - yes, business owners have bosses too; they are called clients

basically your post just backed up what flappist was saying



i have done both and i know which one is much easier

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

if you don't like it damo, start a business
do the 18 hour days with no breaks (paid or otherwise)
only a minimum wage for the first few years
and be a slave to your bosses - yes, business owners have bosses too; they are called clients

basically your post just backed up what flappist was saying

There is a reason you started a business, if it was all doom and gloom with no light at the end of the tunnel you probably wouldn't do it.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

There is a reason you started a business, if it was all doom and gloom with no light at the end of the tunnel you probably wouldn't do it.

why do you think i now work for a guy who can afford a clubby, a boat and a nicer house than mine
i got sick of employing ungrateful, greedy, lazy people who if they didn't like what life served up, they complained their butt off until their job had gone offshore


your views are funny - you want top dollar for what you do, yet when it comes to buying stuff, you are proud to say you buy from overseas because it is cheaper . . . . presumably you want top dollar, but you don't want to pay it

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

why do you think i now work for a guy who can afford a clubby, a boat and a nicer house than mine
i got sick of employing ungrateful, greedy, lazy people who if they didn't like what life served up, they complained their butt off until their job had gone offshore


your views are funny - you want top dollar for what you do, yet when it comes to buying stuff, you are proud to say you buy from overseas because it is cheaper . . . . presumably you want top dollar, but you don't want to pay it

At the end of the day I'm a **** kicker at the bottom of the food chain with a big mouth and unpopular opinion, and I'm not afraid to stand up to people for what I think is right, especially the ones in the high up positions who want to intimidate and bully to get their way.

I'm easily replaceable, but I haven't been replaced as of yet, not once received a warning even though I don't see eye to eye a lot of the time.

I still show up to work 15-20 minutes early, I still leave 10 minutes late, I lend my personal tools to others to help out and I'm training a first year apprentice, when I could say GTFO and learn from someone else.

The end of the day it is me who chooses to show up in the morning, and I can walk out if I want to, I'm not stuck at my workplace.

I don't recall mentioning I wanted to be paid top dollar for what I do, but I do recall mentioning I've purchased stuff overseas (particularily tools because they are cheaper).

Autobarn Sunbury is where I purchased $3500 worth of my tools, I buy stuff from Bunnings in Sunbury, Dewalt drill and impact driver, another tool box, Sidchrome tools from SCA Sunbury, the local hardware store has had a few hundred bucks out of me on random stuff here and there.

I also buy from Transquip Tools in WA, $400 trolley jack and a $260 air drill.

I support the locals as well as buy from overseas, Procharge Turbo's in Sunbury is doing some work for me and my local mechanic is getting work from me because I'm lazy and can't be bothered working on my 4 cars sometimes.

What I don't like is employers trying to whittle down conditions slowly and the whole spiel about too much red tape, and it gets to me even more when management calls for the **** kickers at the bottom to take pay cuts rather than them when it was management who got the company into this situation in the first place.

Money is the cause and answer to all problems unfortunately.

[Cheese3]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I like your thinking

[eb2fairmont]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Interesting thing with fly in fly out work, if the mine or plant closes down on Friday,
the plane and the workers doesn't need to come in on Monday.......

Yeah just ask those employed by Fortescue last year.